LiminalMask
SOC-12
So, I know there's T5 Errata in the works, but I'm trying to learn T5's Personal Combat system in anticipation of trying a T5 Campaign with my group in the next few weeks. So, looking over the rules I am left with some observations and questions, which I'll expand on below. In a nutshell: What is the point of having multiple damage types that all just hit "Armor"? And also, is armor generally overpowered?
What is the point of having multiple damage types that all just hit "Armor"?
There are all sorts of new damage types. On the surface, this seems like a really cool idea. Some of these damage types work well, conceptually. For example, "Cage" protection defends against "EMP" type damage, and "SoundProof" protects against "Bang" damage. So far, so good.
However, virtually all physical damage types apply only to the "Armor" protection. "Bullet", "Cut", "Hit", "Blast", "Burn", "Pen", "Frag", etc. all apply only to "Armor". So why do this? If there's a difference between "Frag" hits and "Bullet" hits, shouldn't that be reflected in certain types of armor resisting each differently? Shouldn't "Pen" damage (theoretically) by pass some armor resistance? Does "Insulation" protection have no effect vs. "Burn" damage?
Let's take an example of a basic Assault Rifle (AR-7), whose damage, if I understand the process correctly, is Bullet-2, Bang-1, Blast-2. Let's not worry about Bang, because that has a different armor to affect. But both Bullet-2 and Blast-2 hit vs. "Armor." Does that mean that on a successful hit, the target takes two different hits of 2D each, or just one hit of 4D? If it's two hits (which I'm assuming it is), why separate the damage at all, since it doesn't matter if it's Bullet or Blast damage? If it's one hit, why not just combine them?
But this brings me to my second question.
Is Armor overpowered?
In order for a target to be wounded, the damage done by the weapon has to exceed the target's Armor rating. Simple enough. But let's see how this plays out with basic equipment.
Baron Kismet (77777C) is taking a stroll through the seedier part of a Starport town when a small band of insurgents attack him. Fortunately, he's wearing his standard "Cloth" armor (TL 8, 250c, Ar 14). (I believe the Basic Body armors table has errors in column placement. It makes no sense for all the basic armors to have "1" or "2" Armor rating at increasing Tech levels and cost, and "Cage" protection seems inappropriate. The most logical reading of that table gives Cloth an Armor rating of 14. Errata could change this, but this argument still applies with other kinds of armor.)
The first rebel to fire on the Baron has a basic slugthrower pistol, doing Bullet-1. No matter how skilled the Rebel, he will never penetrate the Baron's armor, because the most he can do is 6 points of damage, and the Baron has 14 armor.
The next rebel, however, has a slug rifle, doing Bullet-2. The max damage this rifle can do is 12 points. Even this more powerful weapon cannot hurt the Baron. The same goes for the rebel leaping from the shadows with a Shotgun (Bullet-2). So, pistoleer, rifleman, and shotgunner all fire away at the Baron, but his simple ballistic Cloth armor deflects all damage. The Baron turns and walks away without a scratch.
But the rebel leader appears, and he has a military grade weapon: an AR-7 Assault Rifle (like above). He sets it for Burst fire and rains a hail of bullets on the Baron. However, even this weapon can't hurt the Baron, assuming that its hits do two separate damage rolls: Bullet-2 and Blast-2. Autofire does do additional damage, but it has to penetrate the armor first before that damage is applied.
Finally, a mercenary hired by the Rebels leans out of a window and fires his Laser Carbine (Burn-3, Pen-2). This weapons at least has a chance of penetrating the Baron's armor. The Pen-2 damage can't hurt him, but with a max damage of 18 from the Burn-3, there's a chance, albeit, a small one. (Probability table on p. 26 gives the merc a 9% chance to do 15 damage or more.)
So, as the Baron retreats, he can probably take his time. 5 assailants are on him, and 4 of them can't hurt him at all, and the 5th only has a 9% chance to hurt him. And all for a simple suit of Cloth armor available all over the Imperium for 250cr. (And if the Baron would spring for Quilt (600cr), not even the merc could hurt him.) Doesn't this seem unreasonable?
Let's assume the Basic Body Armors need errata-ing and the numbers are way out of whack. What about ArmorMaker? In that respect, there are some fairly reasonable alternatives. The basic Vacc Suit offers Armor 10, though an "Assault Suit" only provides Armor 4 for 3000cr (though also other protections). However, once you get into the territory of powered Armor or Dress, armor seems overpowered again.
Baron Kismet is leading his infantry against a Rebel stronghold. For the occasion, the Baron is wearing (somewhat modest) Combat Armor (PA-8, Armor 28, 80000cr). The Rebels have heavy weapons and fire on the Baron. But to penetrate his Armor, any weapons they use have to do more 4D damage, and even those that do 5D have less that 1% chance to penetrate, 6D weapons have a 4%, and 7D weapons have a 19% chance. So, forget the Assault Rifles, Rebels fire Rocket Launchers (Frag-3, Pen-2; no effect), Heavy Anti-Tank Missiles (Frag-4, Pen-3; no effect), Plasma Guns (Pen-5, Burn-3, very unlikely to hurt), Advanced Battle Rifles (Bullet-5, same). It's finally a sniper with an Advanced Gauss Rifle (Tech 15, Bullet-7) that has small chance of hurting the Baron. But it took a TL-15 weapon to have even a small chance of overcoming a modest TL-8 suit of powered armor. I understand that Powered Armor should be tough. But shrugging off rocket attacks and plasma bolts?
Of course, if we are supposed to combine the damage rolls (Bullet-2, Blast-2, becomes 4D of damage in a single hit) then overwhelming armor become easier--though perhaps TOO easy. A basic Laser Pistol (Burn-3, Pen-2; so perhaps 5D damage) has a better than 50% chance to penetrate Quilt or weaker armor (Armor 18).
So, any insights or thoughts about these questions? Thank you.
What is the point of having multiple damage types that all just hit "Armor"?
There are all sorts of new damage types. On the surface, this seems like a really cool idea. Some of these damage types work well, conceptually. For example, "Cage" protection defends against "EMP" type damage, and "SoundProof" protects against "Bang" damage. So far, so good.
However, virtually all physical damage types apply only to the "Armor" protection. "Bullet", "Cut", "Hit", "Blast", "Burn", "Pen", "Frag", etc. all apply only to "Armor". So why do this? If there's a difference between "Frag" hits and "Bullet" hits, shouldn't that be reflected in certain types of armor resisting each differently? Shouldn't "Pen" damage (theoretically) by pass some armor resistance? Does "Insulation" protection have no effect vs. "Burn" damage?
Let's take an example of a basic Assault Rifle (AR-7), whose damage, if I understand the process correctly, is Bullet-2, Bang-1, Blast-2. Let's not worry about Bang, because that has a different armor to affect. But both Bullet-2 and Blast-2 hit vs. "Armor." Does that mean that on a successful hit, the target takes two different hits of 2D each, or just one hit of 4D? If it's two hits (which I'm assuming it is), why separate the damage at all, since it doesn't matter if it's Bullet or Blast damage? If it's one hit, why not just combine them?
But this brings me to my second question.
Is Armor overpowered?
In order for a target to be wounded, the damage done by the weapon has to exceed the target's Armor rating. Simple enough. But let's see how this plays out with basic equipment.
Baron Kismet (77777C) is taking a stroll through the seedier part of a Starport town when a small band of insurgents attack him. Fortunately, he's wearing his standard "Cloth" armor (TL 8, 250c, Ar 14). (I believe the Basic Body armors table has errors in column placement. It makes no sense for all the basic armors to have "1" or "2" Armor rating at increasing Tech levels and cost, and "Cage" protection seems inappropriate. The most logical reading of that table gives Cloth an Armor rating of 14. Errata could change this, but this argument still applies with other kinds of armor.)
The first rebel to fire on the Baron has a basic slugthrower pistol, doing Bullet-1. No matter how skilled the Rebel, he will never penetrate the Baron's armor, because the most he can do is 6 points of damage, and the Baron has 14 armor.
The next rebel, however, has a slug rifle, doing Bullet-2. The max damage this rifle can do is 12 points. Even this more powerful weapon cannot hurt the Baron. The same goes for the rebel leaping from the shadows with a Shotgun (Bullet-2). So, pistoleer, rifleman, and shotgunner all fire away at the Baron, but his simple ballistic Cloth armor deflects all damage. The Baron turns and walks away without a scratch.
But the rebel leader appears, and he has a military grade weapon: an AR-7 Assault Rifle (like above). He sets it for Burst fire and rains a hail of bullets on the Baron. However, even this weapon can't hurt the Baron, assuming that its hits do two separate damage rolls: Bullet-2 and Blast-2. Autofire does do additional damage, but it has to penetrate the armor first before that damage is applied.
Finally, a mercenary hired by the Rebels leans out of a window and fires his Laser Carbine (Burn-3, Pen-2). This weapons at least has a chance of penetrating the Baron's armor. The Pen-2 damage can't hurt him, but with a max damage of 18 from the Burn-3, there's a chance, albeit, a small one. (Probability table on p. 26 gives the merc a 9% chance to do 15 damage or more.)
So, as the Baron retreats, he can probably take his time. 5 assailants are on him, and 4 of them can't hurt him at all, and the 5th only has a 9% chance to hurt him. And all for a simple suit of Cloth armor available all over the Imperium for 250cr. (And if the Baron would spring for Quilt (600cr), not even the merc could hurt him.) Doesn't this seem unreasonable?
Let's assume the Basic Body Armors need errata-ing and the numbers are way out of whack. What about ArmorMaker? In that respect, there are some fairly reasonable alternatives. The basic Vacc Suit offers Armor 10, though an "Assault Suit" only provides Armor 4 for 3000cr (though also other protections). However, once you get into the territory of powered Armor or Dress, armor seems overpowered again.
Baron Kismet is leading his infantry against a Rebel stronghold. For the occasion, the Baron is wearing (somewhat modest) Combat Armor (PA-8, Armor 28, 80000cr). The Rebels have heavy weapons and fire on the Baron. But to penetrate his Armor, any weapons they use have to do more 4D damage, and even those that do 5D have less that 1% chance to penetrate, 6D weapons have a 4%, and 7D weapons have a 19% chance. So, forget the Assault Rifles, Rebels fire Rocket Launchers (Frag-3, Pen-2; no effect), Heavy Anti-Tank Missiles (Frag-4, Pen-3; no effect), Plasma Guns (Pen-5, Burn-3, very unlikely to hurt), Advanced Battle Rifles (Bullet-5, same). It's finally a sniper with an Advanced Gauss Rifle (Tech 15, Bullet-7) that has small chance of hurting the Baron. But it took a TL-15 weapon to have even a small chance of overcoming a modest TL-8 suit of powered armor. I understand that Powered Armor should be tough. But shrugging off rocket attacks and plasma bolts?
Of course, if we are supposed to combine the damage rolls (Bullet-2, Blast-2, becomes 4D of damage in a single hit) then overwhelming armor become easier--though perhaps TOO easy. A basic Laser Pistol (Burn-3, Pen-2; so perhaps 5D damage) has a better than 50% chance to penetrate Quilt or weaker armor (Armor 18).
So, any insights or thoughts about these questions? Thank you.