Personal Combat: Damage and Armor Question

[LiminalMask]

So, I know there's T5 Errata in the works, but I'm trying to learn T5's Personal Combat system in anticipation of trying a T5 Campaign with my group in the next few weeks. So, looking over the rules I am left with some observations and questions, which I'll expand on below. In a nutshell: What is the point of having multiple damage types that all just hit "Armor"? And also, is armor generally overpowered?

What is the point of having multiple damage types that all just hit "Armor"?
There are all sorts of new damage types. On the surface, this seems like a really cool idea. Some of these damage types work well, conceptually. For example, "Cage" protection defends against "EMP" type damage, and "SoundProof" protects against "Bang" damage. So far, so good.

However, virtually all physical damage types apply only to the "Armor" protection. "Bullet", "Cut", "Hit", "Blast", "Burn", "Pen", "Frag", etc. all apply only to "Armor". So why do this? If there's a difference between "Frag" hits and "Bullet" hits, shouldn't that be reflected in certain types of armor resisting each differently? Shouldn't "Pen" damage (theoretically) by pass some armor resistance? Does "Insulation" protection have no effect vs. "Burn" damage?

Let's take an example of a basic Assault Rifle (AR-7), whose damage, if I understand the process correctly, is Bullet-2, Bang-1, Blast-2. Let's not worry about Bang, because that has a different armor to affect. But both Bullet-2 and Blast-2 hit vs. "Armor." Does that mean that on a successful hit, the target takes two different hits of 2D each, or just one hit of 4D? If it's two hits (which I'm assuming it is), why separate the damage at all, since it doesn't matter if it's Bullet or Blast damage? If it's one hit, why not just combine them?

But this brings me to my second question.

Is Armor overpowered?
In order for a target to be wounded, the damage done by the weapon has to exceed the target's Armor rating. Simple enough. But let's see how this plays out with basic equipment.

Baron Kismet (77777C) is taking a stroll through the seedier part of a Starport town when a small band of insurgents attack him. Fortunately, he's wearing his standard "Cloth" armor (TL 8, 250c, Ar 14). (I believe the Basic Body armors table has errors in column placement. It makes no sense for all the basic armors to have "1" or "2" Armor rating at increasing Tech levels and cost, and "Cage" protection seems inappropriate. The most logical reading of that table gives Cloth an Armor rating of 14. Errata could change this, but this argument still applies with other kinds of armor.)

The first rebel to fire on the Baron has a basic slugthrower pistol, doing Bullet-1. No matter how skilled the Rebel, he will never penetrate the Baron's armor, because the most he can do is 6 points of damage, and the Baron has 14 armor.

The next rebel, however, has a slug rifle, doing Bullet-2. The max damage this rifle can do is 12 points. Even this more powerful weapon cannot hurt the Baron. The same goes for the rebel leaping from the shadows with a Shotgun (Bullet-2). So, pistoleer, rifleman, and shotgunner all fire away at the Baron, but his simple ballistic Cloth armor deflects all damage. The Baron turns and walks away without a scratch.

But the rebel leader appears, and he has a military grade weapon: an AR-7 Assault Rifle (like above). He sets it for Burst fire and rains a hail of bullets on the Baron. However, even this weapon can't hurt the Baron, assuming that its hits do two separate damage rolls: Bullet-2 and Blast-2. Autofire does do additional damage, but it has to penetrate the armor first before that damage is applied.

Finally, a mercenary hired by the Rebels leans out of a window and fires his Laser Carbine (Burn-3, Pen-2). This weapons at least has a chance of penetrating the Baron's armor. The Pen-2 damage can't hurt him, but with a max damage of 18 from the Burn-3, there's a chance, albeit, a small one. (Probability table on p. 26 gives the merc a 9% chance to do 15 damage or more.)

So, as the Baron retreats, he can probably take his time. 5 assailants are on him, and 4 of them can't hurt him at all, and the 5th only has a 9% chance to hurt him. And all for a simple suit of Cloth armor available all over the Imperium for 250cr. (And if the Baron would spring for Quilt (600cr), not even the merc could hurt him.) Doesn't this seem unreasonable?

Let's assume the Basic Body Armors need errata-ing and the numbers are way out of whack. What about ArmorMaker? In that respect, there are some fairly reasonable alternatives. The basic Vacc Suit offers Armor 10, though an "Assault Suit" only provides Armor 4 for 3000cr (though also other protections). However, once you get into the territory of powered Armor or Dress, armor seems overpowered again.

Baron Kismet is leading his infantry against a Rebel stronghold. For the occasion, the Baron is wearing (somewhat modest) Combat Armor (PA-8, Armor 28, 80000cr). The Rebels have heavy weapons and fire on the Baron. But to penetrate his Armor, any weapons they use have to do more 4D damage, and even those that do 5D have less that 1% chance to penetrate, 6D weapons have a 4%, and 7D weapons have a 19% chance. So, forget the Assault Rifles, Rebels fire Rocket Launchers (Frag-3, Pen-2; no effect), Heavy Anti-Tank Missiles (Frag-4, Pen-3; no effect), Plasma Guns (Pen-5, Burn-3, very unlikely to hurt), Advanced Battle Rifles (Bullet-5, same). It's finally a sniper with an Advanced Gauss Rifle (Tech 15, Bullet-7) that has small chance of hurting the Baron. But it took a TL-15 weapon to have even a small chance of overcoming a modest TL-8 suit of powered armor. I understand that Powered Armor should be tough. But shrugging off rocket attacks and plasma bolts?

Of course, if we are supposed to combine the damage rolls (Bullet-2, Blast-2, becomes 4D of damage in a single hit) then overwhelming armor become easier--though perhaps TOO easy. A basic Laser Pistol (Burn-3, Pen-2; so perhaps 5D damage) has a better than 50% chance to penetrate Quilt or weaker armor (Armor 18).

So, any insights or thoughts about these questions? Thank you.

 

[DangerousThing]

Of course, if we are supposed to combine the damage rolls (Bullet-2, Blast-2, becomes 4D of damage in a single hit) then overwhelming armor become easier--though perhaps TOO easy. A basic Laser Pistol (Burn-3, Pen-2; so perhaps 5D damage) has a better than 50% chance to penetrate Quilt or weaker armor (Armor 18).

So, any insights or thoughts about these questions? Thank you.

Yes, physical damage types (those that hit armor) are supposed to be combined. In the case of the laser pistol, I would roll two different colors of dice for the pen and the burn damages.

Pen damage is halved after it penetrates armor and those dice should logically be used first. Then the other dice are added in and if the armor is already penetrated, they do full damage. Unfortunately the different damage types aren't much different. This was one of my most common questions during the beta test.

Pen dice are more effective against armor than bodies.

Frag dice increase wound severity, which isn't explained much.

Other than that, I saw no difference between the other types of damage dice.

Of course, I don't have my books yet, so I don't have the final words yet.

Traveller combat is typically dangerous, so it's good to find ways to avoid it unless you really like Chargen.

 

[Reban]

What is the point of having multiple damage types that all just hit "Armor"?

The different damage types or "Effects" lead to different wound types. Really this needs only apply to wounds affecting PCs or important NPCs.


Is Armor overpowered?

You're right about the Cage figures for the Basic Armors. They seem way too high compared to the other armors, helmets etc. (I see no reason why TL6 Plate should have Ca=22. Any Medieval knight you could zap should fry easily!)

However I don't think you're correct to assume the Cage figures are actually the Armor figures.

Cloth Armour has Ar= 1 compared to suit that starts off at just Ar= 2 and Dress starts with Ar=9 before modification with various descriptors.

These are relatively low ratings. when you start adding up the damage dice you should stand a good chance of penetrating and then wounding your target.

Still its early days, We have to see lots more examples of combat and equipment to see how they mesh together

 

[DaddyDragon]

Bear in mind though, that according to the rules, once there is sufficient damage to overcome the armor, it loses its listed protections (p.221).

So, punch even a single point of damage through, and its ceases to offer protection (at least through the remainder of that engagement, still trying to find that part of the rule to verify it)

 

[pendragonman]

snip...

You're right about the Cage figures for the Basic Armors. They seem way too high compared to the other armors, helmets etc. (I see no reason why TL6 Plate should have Ca=22. Any Medieval knight you could zap should fry easily!)

If cage only protects against EMP, you could EMP zap a medieval knight to your hearts content and it wouldn't hurt him at all. He has no electronics to fry.

 

[Reban]

If cage only protects against EMP, you could EMP zap a medieval knight to your hearts content and it wouldn't hurt him at all. He has no electronics to fry.

Okay, good point. EMP does injure beings however by rendering them ABlind for 1D turns. In other words the being is unaware for up to an hour. An ABlind being has had its nervous system overloaded or fried. One would probably describe the sensation as being numb, dazed and disoriented. There is indeed a separate effect for Elec attacks.

The confusion remains though: why would cloth and all the other basic armors confer such high Cage values? Does Kevlar block EMP?

Also I made an incorrect assumption that Plate Armor was the Medieval kind of "Full Plate" but at TL6 it must be more like Ceramic plate inserts carried in bullet proof vest. Has anyone a better description or does TL6 Plate armor appear anywhere else in Traveller material?

One other thing I'm assuming one can apply Burden and Stage effects for armor to the Basic Armors?

 

[Reban]

Baron Kismet (77777C) is taking a stroll through the seedier part of a Starport town when a small band of insurgents attack him. Fortunately, he's wearing his standard "Cloth" armor (TL 8, 250c, Ar 14). (I believe the Basic Body armors table has errors in column placement. It makes no sense for all the basic armors to have "1" or "2" Armor rating at increasing Tech levels and cost, and "Cage" protection seems inappropriate. The most logical reading of that table gives Cloth an Armor rating of 14. Errata could change this, but this argument still applies with other kinds of armor.)

LiminalMask contrary to my earlier opinion I may have found something that backs you up. I've been pouring over the Personnel Combat Chapter. The major fault is that the chapter explains Armour and Protections over and over again with explanations and examples that are confusing. The best explanation is on p224, which is where I found this quote:

"Armor
Armor is a barrier to Penetration, Bullet, Wound, Blast/Blow, Frag, Burn, Pain, Slash, and Corrode. For example, an assassin fires Bullet-3 at the Duke of Rhylanor. The shot hits his discretely armored Cloth-14 Coat producing (3D = ) 13 hits and has no effect."

Cloth-14 that supports your idea that the Cage values are properly the Armor values.

Makes a bit more sense, but maybe that means Dress, Armor, Suits and units start off too low?

 

[taustin]

If cage only protects against EMP, you could EMP zap a medieval knight to your hearts content and it wouldn't hurt him at all. He has no electronics to fry.

In a Traveller game, that isn't necessarily true.

For that matter, you can find plenty of people in the real world today who dress up in medieval armor, and carry their cell phones with them to the SCA event.

 

[robject]

Bear in mind though, that according to the rules, once there is sufficient damage to overcome the armor, it loses its listed protections (p.221).

So, punch even a single point of damage through, and its ceases to offer protection (at least through the remainder of that engagement, still trying to find that part of the rule to verify it)

AV is zero'ed until the end of the situation:

Page 214: If the Hits applied against the Armor exceed Ar=, then the Armor's protective ability is destroyed for the remainder of the combat situation.

Page 224: If the Effect point value exceeds the Armor value, the excess points each inflict Damage, and the Armor value is reduced to zero for the remainder of the situation.

This could also be germane:

Page 215: Once combat is over, the consequences of any injury, wounding, or damage must be determined.

Page 224: Damage against equipment makes equipment unusable until repaired.

I wonder if perhaps damage to armor counts in this category.

 

[LiminalMask]

Yes, physical damage types (those that hit armor) are supposed to be combined.

Pen damage is halved after it penetrates armor and those dice should logically be used first.

Frag dice increase wound severity, which isn't explained much.

The different damage types or "Effects" lead to different wound types.

DangerousThing and Reban, can you point me to where these (quoted above) rules are spelled out? I know you don't have your book yet, DT, but if you have the Penultimate edition still, I'd appreciate that. I thought I'd done a good job scouring the rules, but I admit I could have overlooked it. It seems like something this significant should be rather easy to find...

As for the example which bears out my assessment of the Armor Value of basic armors, I do remember reading that example, though I think I had forgotten about it when I wrote my original post. (Probably why MY examples were about a Baron, it was there tickling my subconscious.) So, if Cloth armor does have AV 14, and if we DO combine all various damage types into a single damage roll, then weapons do have a chance to overwhelm armor easier. However, a suit of Cloth still makes you completely invulnerable to 2D damage or less. That's all basic slug weapons and most bladed weapons. A suit of Quilt (which is not that much more expensive and only TL9) makes you completely invulnerable to 3D or less weapons. Baron Kismet still has very little to fear, and it seems excessive.

Of course, the rule of "once penetrated, armor is useless" is VERY problematic in my eyes, but that's a whole different question, really. I'll agree it speeds up combat nicely. But it's hardly realistic. If 5 guys with shotguns and pistols fire repeatedly at ol' Baron Kismet, his Cloth armor is going to EVENTUALLY give way, not to mention all the bruising he'll sustain in the process. Same with Combat Armor and rocket attacks--eventually, the force of the rockets should crack the armor. If there was some sort of armor degradation system, you'd have a chance to overwhelm an armored opponent, given time and accuracy. But as it stands, without military-grade weapons, Baron Kismet's Quilt makes him completely impervious.

 

[Reban]

Hi Liminal Mask,

I'll try explaining how different damage types or "Effects" lead to different wound types first and let DangerousThing explain his bit (I'm still trying to figure out the variations myself).

Wounds, healing and medical treatment came into the draft quite late so it doesn't really stand out. By my reading of the Personnel Combat chapter the explanations start to peter out after hitting the target as to what happens next.

The first place I found information on wounds and injury is under Penetrate p220.

Any amount of damage that that is not absorbed by Armor is applied to a Being as Injury.

For example: A Weapon Effect of 2D causing maximum damage of 12 against a Being wearing Ar=10 armor. The Armor is penetrated with 2 points of Damage making it through causing an Injury.

Its a simplified example because particular Effects cause a particular Injury.

Most Effects that physically strike a target and transfer energy are Hits and are applied to C1 C2 C3.

Slash Effects from bladed or sharp weapons cause Cuts which are applied to C1 C2 C3 per turn, probably to simulate heavy bleeding.

EMP Effects literally Fry the nervous system and cause ABlind.

There are lots of other examples on the table on p220.

Why all these different Effects? The rules explain that Burn can be the effect of a flamethrower or a hot surface or a campfire. Evil GMs will see that there are now many ways to injure a PC while maintaining a uniform and fair system.

What happens next? At the end of the round PCs assess detailed Injury using the tables on p222.

All of the above is of course the detailed and difficult way of doing things for when its important to know that your PC has been blinded for 3 rounds by the suitcase nuke that just went off.

There is also the V0 Hit system described on p215 which just takes whatever points left over after penetrating armor and applies them to strength, dexterity, and endurance
on a temporary basis. It also allows a PC to be stunned or killed outright.

Finally there's more information on healing injuries under Medical Skill.

 

[robject]

The loss of AV and several types of Protection when armor is penetrated is disconcerting, but it makes combat fast and lethal. It also has a side-effect that high-powered weapons negate the armor, and lower-powered weapons finish off the target. Thus a Battledressed marine becomes vulnerable to pistols -- that is, if he survives a full hit from a PGMP.

Having several types of damage which simply map to "hits" bothers me because I dislike clutter. However, the other damage effects, simulating stun damage, blindness, bleeding, and the like, are interesting.

 

[DangerousThing]

One misconception I've seen here is that EMP causes temporary blindness. It actually causes ABlind, which only effects those with Awareness and not normal humans. Page 220, bottom of page. This is the page with Penetrate as a header.

And unless I'm mistaken, armor is only temporarily reduced to zero at a given hit location. This only effects the AV and not the other damage types. Overwhelming the armor with the other effects (like EMP against Cage) doesn't cause the temporary reduction. And the armor is fine after the battle. The reduction is only a game artifact.

To be honest, I hate this rule. I did rewrite the combat rules to make them understandable by my wife, a non-role player whose first game will start soon. Unfortunately I also wanted advantages and disadvantages, so rather than retrofit all this into T5, I went with GURPS for the characters and combat because I *understand* those rules.

 

[DangerousThing]

I can't find the definition of Penetration damage that I remember from before. Nor of frag damage.

One of my huge complaints of this chapter was that it was too confusing. And a confusing combat system is worse than no combat system.

I don't have the time to look through the errata now, but there may be something there.

And to think that CT only used a few pages to tell people this in a way that was easily understood...

 

[Reban]

One misconception I've seen here is that EMP causes temporary blindness. It actually causes ABlind, which only effects those with Awareness and not normal humans. Page 220, bottom of page. This is the page with Penetrate as a header.

I hope I didn't give this impression. I tried to make it clear that the effect on Beings is to their nervous system making them unaware, confused and disoriented as to their surroundings. To be clear an ABlind PC can still see, they just can't make much sense of their surroundings; "Where am I? Which way is the ship? Ouff I just bumped into this table."

Under Penetrate p220 it says that if Armor is reduced to 0 then RadProof, SoundProof, Insulated and Sealed Protections all become 0 too.

While I think your right that on a strict reading, armor resets after the encounter, under Injury on p222 theres a Character Object Hit Location Table. I would apply detailed damage including location to the armor using this table at the end of an encounter. But its complicated.

I agree its way too confusing, mainly because it restates the same things over and over, but slightly differently each time. If the STAMP system was rewritten as a nice flow chart I think it would work a lot better and like CT it would take far fewer pages.

 

[DangerousThing]

I hope I didn't give this impression. I tried to make it clear that the effect on Beings is to their nervous system making them unaware, confused and disoriented as to their surroundings. To be clear an ABlind PC can still see, they just can't make much sense of their surroundings; "Where am I? Which way is the ship? Ouff I just bumped into this table."

The only characters that can become ABlind are characters that have the talent Awareness, which is an electrical field sense. It should be in the chapter on senses. Humans are already ABlind.

 

[robject]

Dangerous, thank you for clarifying ABlind. That was in the back of my mind, but I didn't bother to think about it...

And unless I'm mistaken, armor is only temporarily reduced to zero [...]

To be honest, I hate this rule. [...]

...And to think that CT only used a few pages to tell people this in a way that was easily understood...

Even though CT only handles one type of damage ("hits"), and simplifies armor to a task DM, it still has a large number of situational mods and equipment mods that each formed a little rule of its own. All the ins and outs of CT's combat system still daunts me. If anything, it *seems* more arbitrary than T5. But, I haven't reviewed my copies of TTB lately.

My group is *quite* wary of T5's Armor Negation rule; however, I will play it as written, gathering errata as I go, and I suspect that particular rule will not be as big a deal as we think. But: Your Mileage May Vary, and I Might Be Wrong.

 

[Reban]

Yes its p 208. I never used the word Human I used Being (granted maybe Sophont is more correct).

As well as Electrical fields, sophonts with Awareness can sense Magnetic fields and Mass.


EDIT: Also Awareness is not a Talent its a Sense. Any Sophont can have Awareness that rolls Flux +1 to +5 in Sophont Creation p554. Solomani are listed as having only 4 of the 6 senses but other minor human species may have Awareness or Preception if they are created that way. Equally they might be created Blind, Deaf or Anosmic (no Smell). All Sophonts have Touch as a Sense.

EDIT 2: There is a single note on p208 that "(Human do not have Awareness)" typo included.

 

[LiminalMask]

I can't find the definition of Penetration damage that I remember from before. Nor of frag damage.

One of my huge complaints of this chapter was that it was too confusing. And a confusing combat system is worse than no combat system.

See, I can't find it either, which is why I asked about it. As far as I can tell, there is no difference between a character taking Bullet, Frag, Pen, Burn, etc. damage. There's no obvious point to it, and so, IMO it should be removed. Call it "Hits" and be done with it, especially if we are supposed to combine dice to a total hit. (I still haven't found the rule in the text which specifically says THAT either.) I'm a little surprised that something this central to the game actually went to paper press so vague, confusing, and incomplete. The Protections make sense (Blind, Suff, etc.), shouldn't the hits as well?

And unless I'm mistaken, armor is only temporarily reduced to zero at a given hit location.

That would certainly lend more realism to the system (sort of) but again, I can't find a ruling in the text that says this is how to handle things.

 

[whartung]

See, I can't find it either, which is why I asked about it. As far as I can tell, there is no difference between a character taking Bullet, Frag, Pen, Burn, etc. damage. There's no obvious point to it, and so, IMO it should be removed. Call it "Hits" and be done with it, especially if we are supposed to combine dice to a total hit. (I still haven't found the rule in the text which specifically says THAT either.)

I do not have T5, and I have not seen the system at all. I do not, at a high level disagree with your comments on what you're presenting.

However, it may be a bit myopic to focus on that there is "no difference". There may be no difference to Players, but to other materials, there could be quite a difference.

Obviously, shooting, say, a dry hay bale with something with Bullet, Pen, or Frag won't matter much (save learning how well a hay bale absorbs such damage). However, Burn damage is likely a different story.

For whatever reason, it was felt that the combat system needed to model these other types of damage and effects in a more generic way. One example that came to mind is the idea of a "flash/bang" grenade. Something that does Blind and Sound damage, but not, necessarily, physical damage (I may be mistaken on my damage types, but the gist is the same).

So, this system can potentially better model the effect of something like that in contrast to just a special rule. Now a player can go in with Hearing protection, or sunglasses. Or maybe if they're wearing night vision, they take Blind +2 damage, or whatever.

Is that level of detail necessary, eh, that's a different issue. But it's interesting that they went down this road to model it formally in the first place.

I'm a little surprised that something this central to the game actually went to paper press so vague, confusing, and incomplete. The Protections make sense (Blind, Suff, etc.), shouldn't the hits as well?

It's disappointing to hear about vague, unclear rules, etc. I know it's a BIG book, but as I understand it, it's ideally been somewhat vetted and play tested for several years. Since the actual development discussions were hidden away, we can't refer to them for insight (something I think was a mistake). I would have hoped that issues like this not only would have been discovered, but addressed.

I would have hoped, barring the final, final production (i.e. getting stuff actually printed, putting things in boxes, etc.), nothing about this would have been "rushed". It's been in development (not necessarily full time) for at least 7 years.