Personal Combat: Damage and Armor Question

[Reban]

Hi,

Are you sure, have you seen test evidence?

Just thinking about the recent programme I was watching about Richard III's body and the amount of wounds it took to bring him down.

Kind regards

David

I wasn't talking about pure Armor Value but the Protection called Cage which protects against EMP.

I've handled quite a bit of reproduction armor from Roman, to Dark Ages to Medieval Full Plate and 19th century cavalry curiasses and I have yet to see any of them that incorporate a Faraday cage or any other form insulation that would prevent the wearer or electronics on his body from going fizz-zzapp

I also realized that what T5 calls "Plate" Armor is more like modern hard shell riot gear as it's TL6.

You are right about early armor. They are amazingly crafted pieces of protection that are surprisingly easy to wear, move and fight in, once you're a bit fit and wear the proper layers of padding underneath.

 

[Tarrien]

The thing that bothers me is if you penetrate armor it loses it protection for the rest of the action. This makes no sense to me at all. If you consider a 9mm pistol hitting a modern Kevlar vest none of the rounds should penetrate (although you might break a rib). Ok, cool no pen and the armor holds up to all hits.

Hit that Kevlar with an AK-47 round and it goes through - well now lets see what happens in game terms: First hit you roll damage dice and deduct the armor value then anything left over becomes damage. Ok, I can see that but why does the armor go to zero for the next couple of hits from the same burst? The probability that the next say 2 hits are going to enter the same hole from the first hit is astronomical. The next 2 hits are going to land on undamaged portions of the Kevlar vest and should reduce the damage like it did for the first hit.

I'm pretty sure that's how I'm going to run it in my game or the result is going to be a lot of dead PC's. I also think I'm going to have a lot of mixture with older rule sets to make a hybrid game to keep my players happy with the system.

 

[pendragonman]

This came up in Beta. The T5 combat "round" isn't a round as we see it in other games or even in other versions of Trav. It is an entire self contained episode of combat, with a variable time length.

To get my head around it I tried to think of it as the amount of action that happens it a cop show, from one commercial break to another. In some of those time periods alot of rounds are exchanged and in some very few if any.

 

[Magnus von Thornwood]

Not quite.

The thing that bothers me is if you penetrate armor it loses it protection for the rest of the action. This makes no sense to me at all. If you consider a 9mm pistol hitting a modern Kevlar vest none of the rounds should penetrate (although you might break a rib). Ok, cool no pen and the armor holds up to all hits.

Hit that Kevlar with an AK-47 round and it goes through - well now lets see what happens in game terms: First hit you roll damage dice and deduct the armor value then anything left over becomes damage. Ok, I can see that but why does the armor go to zero for the next couple of hits from the same burst? The probability that the next say 2 hits are going to enter the same hole from the first hit is astronomical. The next 2 hits are going to land on undamaged portions of the Kevlar vest and should reduce the damage like it did for the first hit.

I'm pretty sure that's how I'm going to run it in my game or the result is going to be a lot of dead PC's. I also think I'm going to have a lot of mixture with older rule sets to make a hybrid game to keep my players happy with the system.

I have made a study of officer survival and while they rock for the first round, once compromised Kevlar vests get progressively worse at stopping the rounds that come after the first. So actually a burst has a decent chance of penetrating and doing serious damage to the wearer. Which is why they have to be replaced whenever they have taken just one round.

Another thing to remember is that even when a Kevlar vest stops rounds from penetrating and doing possibly fatal wounds, the wearer is still going to take a good chunk of blunt trauma.

Basically, this rule upon reflection is not that out there.

 

[Tarrien]

I have made a study of officer survival and while they rock for the first round, once compromised Kevlar vests get progressively worse at stopping the rounds that come after the first. So actually a burst has a decent chance of penetrating and doing serious damage to the wearer. Which is why they have to be replaced whenever they have taken just one round.

Another thing to remember is that even when a Kevlar vest stops rounds from penetrating and doing possibly fatal wounds, the wearer is still going to take a good chunk of blunt trauma.

Basically, this rule upon reflection is not that out there.

I agree which is why I said the 9mm may break a rib. I just feel that depending on where the additional rounds hit, the Kevlar should reduce some of the damage and not treat the vest like it's not even there.

 

[LordRhys]

My solution is not to drop the Armor Value to zero but instead to halve it in the location that was hit, it still protects, just not as well.

Called shots and armor-piercing ammo seem to fix the other problems with armor too.

 

[Rynak]

My solution is not to drop the Armor Value to zero but instead to halve it in the location that was hit, it still protects, just not as well.

Called shots and armor-piercing ammo seem to fix the other problems with armor too.

This is exactly what our group came up with during a test combat.

 

[DonM]

Can someone summarize these solutions in a PM to me, and the specific questions they answer, so I can see about getting official errata to cover them?

And if they are in the items that LiminalMask put in the errata thread, then I've got them for Marc...

 

[robject]

Based on the combat examples on page 214 and the very few examples of weaponry given on page 240 along with what I can derive from the GunMaker section, it looks like it's neary impossible to make a man portable weapon that can penetrate even the weakest Battle Dress.

The PGMP-11 which is the only hi-energy weapon that we have an example of won't even come close to penetrating that level of armor.

If my calculations are up to date, a PGMP-11 can penetrate TL13 Battle Dress; it's just not easy. A PGMP-13 has a better chance. Also, using Snapfire or Autofire increases hits as well.

 

[LordRhys]

The PGMP-11 presented on page 258 is totally incapable of penetrating the Armor on TL13 Battledress.

I believe that the PGMP-11 damage should be Pen-5, Burn-3 not Pen-3, Burn-3. That would raise the Max damage to 48 points.

It would still be highly unlikely to penetrate the Armor, and that's just the most basic and weakest Battledress available.

And TL13 Battledress is completely immune to almost every weapon of it's own TL that doesn't require Battledress to carry and use.

Autofire and Snapfire only add to damage after armor penetration.

And the Armor problems only increase when you get to vehicles, you can't make a weapon that will penetrate a heavy tank of the same tech level.

The Armor Penetration Rules that I'm using would only add 10 points of armor penetration to that PGMP-11 (Assuming Pen-5), not an unbalancing amount when you take into account that the average damage of the PGMP-11 is only 28 points. So an average roll STILL wouldn't penetrate TL13 Battledress, you have to roll at least 36 to penetrate the Armor.

 

[LiminalMask]

Can someone summarize these solutions in a PM to me, and the specific questions they answer, so I can see about getting official errata to cover them?

And if they are in the items that LiminalMask put in the errata thread, then I've got them for Marc...

Most of what's being suggested at this point are alternate rules to the combat and armor system. I raised the problem that armor seems overpowered--i.e. Quilt armor makes a character immune to all weapons that do 3D or less damage. LordRhys points out that at the other end of the spectrum, the most advanced and powerful weapon made in WeaponMaker can't punch through Battle Dress. This problem may be lessened depending on whether Marc clarifies my question about combining damage rolls that all hit Armor or not. (i.e. is Bullet-2, Blast-2 damage one 4D hit or two 2D hits). However, even if the damage is combined, that will still not get rid of the problem, only make armor slightly less overpowered-- but still overpowered.

This has led to a separate discussion about the combat system itself in three areas: 1) the hit location mechanic, 2) whether different damage types (such as Pen) should affect Armor differently, and 3) the rule that armor, once penetrated, offers no protection for the remainder of combat.

I brought up areas 1 and 2 in the initial post, which I wont' repeat here, just point to the top of this thread and to the errata thread. Regarding point 3, I only asked for clarification on whether armor loses its protection in the area hit, or over the whole body (which further means we need to know what areas of the body different armor types protect). However, I didn't address point 3 directly as a mechanic because it isn't necessarily in error. It's a choice, and as a mechanic, it "works," whether people like it or not.

Personally, I don't like that rule either. I would prefer to see something else, like the house rules people are proposing in this thread, for instance. Some sort of armor degradation rule might be useful-- it would, at least, help with the Quilt armor problem. 5 guys with S-4 shotguns shooting at 1 target in Quilt would not be able to hurt him at all... but if the armor gets weaker with every hit, eventually they'd be able to punch through.

However, if I can get some clarification to the matters I raised in the errata and here, I plan on sitting down with some friends and running a few rounds of combat with the rules as printed to see how it plays. Then I think I can evaluate the merits of the system. However, I can't do that until we clarify the questions I raised and handle the overpowered armor question... (or, at least, get a "working as intended" answer.)

 

[DonM]

However, if I can get some clarification to the matters I raised in the errata and here, I plan on sitting down with some friends and running a few rounds of combat with the rules as printed to see how it plays. Then I think I can evaluate the merits of the system. However, I can't do that until we clarify the questions I raised and handle the overpowered armor question... (or, at least, get a "working as intended" answer.)

I presented the items exactly as you explained them to Marc on Monday, and then he and I went through it, so I know he understood the issues. He did ask for time to put together responses.

 

[LiminalMask]

I presented the items exactly as you explained them to Marc on Monday, and then he and I went through it, so I know he understood the issues. He did ask for time to put together responses.

Great, thanks Don. I look forward to it.

 

[Licheking]

has their been an answer to this yet from Marc?

 

[LiminalMask]

I have not seen one. The Errata is still version 0.6, which has been for a many weeks now.

 

[DonM]

0.7 will probably come out after tomorrow's errata discussion is digested. However, the errata everyone wants will really have to wait until all the shipping is done.

Also, after July 1, I will be unavailable for two weeks, as we will be going to Washington DC on an apartment hunt for my son (he's spending two years in DC working on his Masters degree).

Of course, if folks know of an apartment in DC... :rofl:

 

[Ulsyus]

I wonder if perhaps damage to armor counts in this category.

The reference to equipment being damaged, while it would apply to armour, may have to be tempered in its use. If a soldier or member of a police force were wearing what Traveller calls Cloth were shot, the armour would continue to provide protection against subsequent hits. The amount of protection would vary according to the situation, but to model it for a game would make it more like Aftermath than Traveller. The armour would need to be refurb'd or replaced afterward the incident, but someone wouldn't take it off in the middle of an action hoping to move more freely now that their armour's useless. The references to armour on p220 and p224 seem to be not entirely compatible, but if we apply some common sense, then hits in excess of the armour points get through.

The word in issue here seems to me to be "Situation". What is a situation? Is it that singular element of penetration by one round aimed by one firer, or something more expansive like an entire round of combat? Or the entire combat scene itself? Define situation, and the nut's mostly cracked.

However, a suit of Cloth still makes you completely invulnerable to 2D damage or less. That's all basic slug weapons and most bladed weapons. A suit of Quilt (which is not that much more expensive and only TL9) makes you completely invulnerable to 3D or less weapons. Baron Kismet still has very little to fear, and it seems excessive.

...If there was some sort of armor degradation system, you'd have a chance to overwhelm an armored opponent, given time and accuracy. But as it stands, without military-grade weapons, Baron Kismet's Quilt makes him completely impervious.

I think you'd find that the cloth would cover his torso, maybe the legs if you're feeling generous, but not the others. So if the hit location table's being used and someone hits von Kismet in the head then unless he's wearing a helmet there (as opposed to slung on his belt because it's heavy, not entirely comfortable, and clashes with his expensively styled Cloth suit) he's going to get a little more than a headache.

...

...unless the hit location table rolled for a Graze!

 

[andycowley]

Ulsyus,

What you (and this thread in general) describe is key to the 'rework' of the TPCS system .. all I can say at this point is that all of the issues in this thread are addressed by the TPCS update ..... hopefully coming soon to a download near you (but Marc will be the final arbiter of 'when'

 

[Ulsyus]

I was having a think about autofire vs snapfire the other day, and trying to relate them to experiences.

When firing a weapon (say, an assault rifle) on full-auto, a firer still aims the weapon. Depending on what type it is, the intention is to either produce a grouping (point target, closely spaced targets) or a beaten zone (targets within an area that the beaten zone can be laid over). Standard theory of machine-gun fire stuff.

That all takes time though. Popping up or around cover or concealment such as moving past a wall into a doorway into a room, acquiring a target, laying accurate fire onto it, moving at the same time, all of that is complex and difficult. Snapfire could relate to this. For the very skilled it's all in a day's work, but for the amateur it's too complex to successfully pull off.

The attack types descriptors on p214 say autofire is multiple operations of the weapon involving less accuracy than aimed fire, while snapfire is multiple unaimed operatons of the weapon with significantly less accuracy.

Maybe the thing that's missing is an initiative mod for firer's undertaking snapfire? SF dudes moving into a room would use the equivalent of snapfire (punch and shoot) and they are pretty fast at clearing a room. Fascinating stuff to see or be involved in.

 

[exedore6]

One thing I noticed... The standard cloth armor your talking about is a TL-8 Heavy Kevlar vest. There are issues for sure, but I think the armor and weapon damage values aren't crazy off.

I really want to run through a combat without any assumptions, try to stat up some real world weapons and armor (right now, I'm thinking a M1911, and a bulletproof vest, and see if it passes a smell test.

So the M1911, I'm going to call it a ImP-6, doing bullet-2 damage.
Now for armor - a little tricky, but I think we're talking about.
It's not a suit, just an item, Advanced, Assault. AA-7, giving an AR of 12.

My read, the handgun would have to do max damage to take out the armor, and have nothing left (or not shoot the chest).

I'm not sure I love the all or nothing nature of armor, but it doesn't seem too crazy to me that 1 TL makes a big difference in a fair fight (making the pistol an AdP-7 gets the extra die, where the first hot will probably punch through, and the second would probably drop the fellow.