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Pgmp-12

I'd think the discharge would be more akin to a rocket or jet engine effect (greatly magnified) than a sudden kick like a projectile weapon. On the receiving end the distance would determine the diameter of the plasma field. Against skin or cloth etc., it would definitely ignite everything in its path. Aganist armor though anything beyond close range and the size of the field would diminish the effect probably on nearly a cube function as it does in pure chemical explosions.
The problem here would be that the effect is spread over a fairly large area making the blast component nearly worthless on armor and the heat would dissipate far too fast to really cut through it.

The heat and blast effect of a nuclear explosion at some distance from ground zero might be an approximate effect (without the energetic radiation of course). Blast wouldn't be the major danger the heat would be.

Now, to some degree, doing a pop up type attack would benefit the blast component if facing entrenched opponets. Here the fire coming from above would allow the blast to more effectively enter the entrenchments and effect the defenders than a direct fire burst would.
 
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I'm also picturing a steam contrail behind the plasma where it super-heated the moisture in the atmosphere it passed through. New meaning to the phrase 'Fog of War'. And at Mach 25, maybe a wind tunnel effect in it's wake.

I just see it moving too fast to leave much of a lasting effect on the eyes of the user or other observers. More like a camera flash.
 
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So, with the PGMP-12, we're looking at something taking a few grams of hydrogen, superheating it to 10,000 degrees, then releasing it in a 20mm, 8000mps blast with the kick of those old Nitro Express elephant guns? With a practical maximum range of 750 meters, that means it's blasted it's target less than a 10th of a second after you pull the trigger.

I think you're right. Basically it's going to look and sound like a very brief lightning-bolt. You're gonna see a flash like the world's biggest flashbulb went off in a 750+meter line, followed by a thunder-like ba-bang as the air gets shoved out of the way in a shockwave and then slaps back in, then there'll be a greenish line as your retinas recover from the afterimage of the flash.

On the receiving end, you're talking about a very small quantity of gaseous matter travelling at speeds approaching - mach-24? - which, by virtue of the squaring property of the velocity portion of the kinetic energy equation and the extremely high temperature of the matter in question (maybe hot enough to vaporize several grams of steel if it didn't punch through on kinetics alone before transferring its heat, but my physics is old and weak), is not going to interact with the target in ways familiar to those of us accustomed to old-fashioned mach-1 room temperature metal slugs.

The closest comparable effect I can think of is the early test that revealed the potential of the shaped charge, when the letters stamped in the explosive block inadvertently focused the explosion so effectively that they punched that image into a metal plate that had otherwise successfully resisted the blast. Is there actually any research out there about how a high-temperature, hypervelocity plasma would interact with something?
 
So, with the PGMP-12, we're looking at something taking a few grams of hydrogen, superheating it to 10,000 degrees, then releasing it in a 20mm, 8000mps blast with the kick of those old Nitro Express elephant guns? With a practical maximum range of 750 meters, that means it's blasted it's target less than a 10th of a second after you pull the trigger.

I think you're right. Basically it's going to look and sound like a very brief lightning-bolt. You're gonna see a flash like the world's biggest flashbulb went off in a 750+meter line, followed by a thunder-like ba-bang as the air gets shoved out of the way in a shockwave and then slaps back in, then there'll be a greenish line as your retinas recover from the afterimage of the flash.

On the receiving end, you're talking about a very small quantity of gaseous matter travelling at speeds approaching - mach-24? - which, by virtue of the squaring property of the velocity portion of the kinetic energy equation and the extremely high temperature of the matter in question (maybe hot enough to vaporize several grams of steel if it didn't punch through on kinetics alone before transferring its heat, but my physics is old and weak), is not going to interact with the target in ways familiar to those of us accustomed to old-fashioned mach-1 room temperature metal slugs.

The closest comparable effect I can think of is the early test that revealed the potential of the shaped charge, when the letters stamped in the explosive block inadvertently focused the explosion so effectively that they punched that image into a metal plate that had otherwise successfully resisted the blast. Is there actually any research out there about how a high-temperature, hypervelocity plasma would interact with something?

Well said!
 
The closest comparable effect I can think of is the early test that revealed the potential of the shaped charge, when the letters stamped in the explosive block inadvertently focused the explosion so effectively that they punched that image into a metal plate that had otherwise successfully resisted the blast. Is there actually any research out there about how a high-temperature, hypervelocity plasma would interact with something?

Yep, pretty much!

I'll note that the wikipedia page for HEAT warheads notes mach 25 for their jet. So these aren't quite that potent.

I still want the citation for 8000m/s - I think that a good bit higher than I expected. ISTR 8000°C, not 8000m/s, but I can't remember the source for that, either.
 
Yep, pretty much!

I'll note that the wikipedia page for HEAT warheads notes mach 25 for their jet. So these aren't quite that potent.

I still want the citation for 8000m/s - I think that a good bit higher than I expected. ISTR 8000°C, not 8000m/s, but I can't remember the source for that, either.

I pulled that off of a fan site.... Will I am not a scientist just a soldier.
 
So, with the PGMP-12, we're looking at something taking a few grams of hydrogen, superheating it to 10,000 degrees, then releasing it in a 20mm, 8000mps blast with the kick of those old Nitro Express elephant guns? With a practical maximum range of 750 meters, that means it's blasted it's target less than a 10th of a second after you pull the trigger.

I think the temperature is too high. Hydrogen plasma torches I have worked with get to a bit over half that or about 3000 C. It might get that high right near the aparature but will fall off rapidly as it expands away from it. You are creating a plasma not getting the hydrogen to fusionable temperatures.
Also, as noted in the various books, it expands as it leaves the barrel. I would think at about a third or so of the max range it would expand to its maximum and then, like a flame, start to narrow back down beyond that. So, you have something that looks like a flame maybe a meter or more in diameter at say, 200 meters tapering off to next to nothing at 750 meters.
The temperature would also vary throughout the burst. At the extreme it might be down to about 1000 C or less.


I think you're right. Basically it's going to look and sound like a very brief lightning-bolt. You're gonna see a flash like the world's biggest flashbulb went off in a 750+meter line, followed by a thunder-like ba-bang as the air gets shoved out of the way in a shockwave and then slaps back in, then there'll be a greenish line as your retinas recover from the afterimage of the flash.

The recoil I would think would be more like a rocket engine being ignited. You have a hot gas (plasma) coming out and pushing on the weapon much like a rocket engine with the gun wanting to head into orbit in the opposite direction from the burst.

On the receiving end, you're talking about a very small quantity of gaseous matter travelling at speeds approaching - mach-24? - which, by virtue of the squaring property of the velocity portion of the kinetic energy equation and the extremely high temperature of the matter in question (maybe hot enough to vaporize several grams of steel if it didn't punch through on kinetics alone before transferring its heat, but my physics is old and weak), is not going to interact with the target in ways familiar to those of us accustomed to old-fashioned mach-1 room temperature metal slugs.

Plasma isn't a solid, its sort of a gas. It will splash on the target or, will have to be applied long enough for it to cut through. So, a very brief burst isn't going to have much penetration. But, it will set the paint, any flammables on the outside, etc., on fire. That might be sufficent in many cases to immobilize or at least reduce the efficency of an armored vehicle.

The closest comparable effect I can think of is the early test that revealed the potential of the shaped charge, when the letters stamped in the explosive block inadvertently focused the explosion so effectively that they punched that image into a metal plate that had otherwise successfully resisted the blast. Is there actually any research out there about how a high-temperature, hypervelocity plasma would interact with something?

A plasma gun is closer to a flamethrower in effect. But, unlike a flamethrower it doesn't cover the target in a liquid fuel that continues to burn after the flamethrower stops spraying.
 
@enoki.... we are talking about a hypothetical weapon.... your experience with plasma torches is noted. But... don't you think you need to coincide we are talking about a weaponized fusion reaction.

and yes the RL points you are making are substantiated by current science.... but we are talking TL12+ now.
 
I'll note that with 1.6x the KE per gram as we've been talking about, the HEAT 10cm warheads are doing a lot more penetration and have only got 500-600°C jets of gas. But they're also generating a kilo or so of gas.
 
@enoki.... we are talking about a hypothetical weapon.... your experience with plasma torches is noted. But... don't you think you need to coincide we are talking about a weaponized fusion reaction.

and yes the RL points you are making are substantiated by current science.... but we are talking TL12+ now.

We are talking plasma weapons here. Like a giant plasma torch. Fusion weapons (ie the FGMP "Fug Mump") is actually igniting the plasma as a fusion reaction.

Plasmas are just very energetic gases that have their electrons stripped off entirely (ie., a highly energetic ionized gas). Fusion weapons take it to the next step.

On penetrating armor: The other reason HEAT rounds work is because the jet is concentrated in a very small area on the target. Here we have a weapon that has a very big cone of fire hitting the vehicle.

One way to concentrate the plasma stream some would be to spin the gas as it is turned into plasma so that it emerges something akin to a tornado where the stream is more coherent and shaped into a sort of stream rather than just randomly discharged.
 
We are talking plasma weapons here. Like a giant plasma torch. Fusion weapons (ie the FGMP "Fug Mump") is actually igniting the plasma as a fusion reaction.

Plasmas are just very energetic gases that have their electrons stripped off entirely (ie., a highly energetic ionized gas). Fusion weapons take it to the next step.

On penetrating armor: The other reason HEAT rounds work is because the jet is concentrated in a very small area on the target. Here we have a weapon that has a very big cone of fire hitting the vehicle.

One way to concentrate the plasma stream some would be to spin the gas as it is turned into plasma so that it emerges something akin to a tornado where the stream is more coherent and shaped into a sort of stream rather than just randomly discharged.

Final comment and then I am leaving the topic :mad:

The Description of the weapon says: extreme range 750m (it increases to 1km for the 13 & 14 TL Models, 2cm in diameter bolt of plasma... yes it is noted the splash effect , yes there is some dissipation... still the figure speculated for the weapon at a Fictional speed of 8000m/s and whatever the Fictional temp is its going to punch through light armor, crack & defeat ceramic armor. My opinion ( take it or leave it) in the traveller universe the PGMP 12 is a "overmatch" infantry weapon vs. light fortifications, buildings, light armor, and enemy personnel.

According to the the research I have done the objective of the weapon for ballistic missile defense was 10000K which translates to 17540.33 ° F if my math is correct this late at night. Or for the metric freaks out there 9726.85 °C.
 
I've been doing a bit of math. Math is fun.

A cubic meter is a million cubic centimeters. A metric ton is 1000 kg or 1 million grams. Basic stuff, but it leads to this: if a ton of liquid hydrogen occupies 13.5 cubic meters (13.5 million cubic centimeters), then a gram of liquid hydrogen occupies 1 millionth of that, 13.5 cubic centimeters. That's in it's ever-so cold liquid state. Our guesses for the PGMP hydrogen charge have ranged from 2 to "a few" grams. That means a starting fuel charge occupying a minimum 27 cc. Now, that's approaching the size of a shell casing from the venerable Browning .50, and there's 40 such charges, 1080 cc. That 3 kg battery pack likely include a hydrogen reservoir. For later purposes, we will apply the 20mm diameter mentioned in book 4 and assume optimistically the fuel charge is a cylinder 2 cm in diameter by about 9 cm length (Pi R^2 H).

Next:
About the biggest kicking rifle out there is, or was, a Holland and Holland .600 Nitro Express "elephant gun". The Nitro Express fired a 58 gram round at a muzzle velocity of 620 m/s, kinetic energy in excess of 11000 joules when it left the barrel. Basically, it made the TL8 Light Assault Gun, with its 30 gram 500 m/s round, look like a wimp. There was later a .700 Nitro made special for some rich boy: it put out a 65 gram round at 610 m/s for 12000 joules and could best be described as a bruiser - literally.

Now, let's say 12,000 joules is the maximum KE you can spit out without doing yourself a hurt. Let's say, for the sake of argument, that your PGMP-12 is firing off 2 grams of hydrogen plasma. To have the same kinetic energy - and therefore the same kick - it's top velocity has to be no more than ~5.66 times that of the .700, or 3450 m/s. At 3450 m/s, your bolt goes from muzzle to its 750m max range in less than a quarter of a second. (To get speed up to 8000 m/s without losing our shoulder, we'd need to cut mass to 0.375g.)

(Incidentally, that 3450m/s speed is about the exhaust velocity of a good rocket. That becomes important later.)

Let's look at it in Newtonian physics. What are we looking at? 2 grams of propellant leaving a 20mm aperture in about a quarter second at a temperature of several thousand degrees and a speed of 3450m/s. In other words, a very tightly focused, very very brief, rocket. A plasma torch? By comparison, the Space Shuttle Main engines punch out about 1300 kg of fuel per second at 3560m/s through a 2.4m diameter bell at temperatures around 3300 degrees C. That's 162,500 times as much propellant through 14,400 times as large an area. In other words, the PGMP's a little rocket with about 1/10 the mass output per square centimeter of a Space-Shuttle main engine.

What will it do to the target? I don't honestly know. That's still 12,000 joules - elephant killing power - but it's behind 2 grams of a sun-hot, rather thin gas with a slightly larger cross-sectional area, travelling at mach 10. Striker says it punches through 6 cm of steel at 250m. I don't thing my poor body would live through something like that, but I can't see it punching through 6 cm of steel to kill me on the other side.

So, let's try a different tack. It's a game, after all. Let's look at it in Traveller physics, ignoring the elements of canon description that seem to be leading us to disaster. At the core, we're dealing with a plug of liquid hydrogen, undetermined quantity, superheated and blasted out of a gun with our human limit of 12,000 joules of kinetic "punch": at 250 meters, it can penetrate 6 cm of steel (Striker); at 450 meters, it's 2 cm; by 750 m, (about a sixth of a second later), it's down to 0.25 cm - it's about spent. So, it's reduced to 1/3 of its "punch" in a bit under double the range and 1/24 of its power at triple the range. Not much spread.

In fact, if we try to apply just enough of Newton for the thing to work, let's ditch that 20mm bit - it's killing us - call it a typo and let's say it's a 2mm pulse; that gives us the kinetic power of an elephant gun behind a jet of plasma with 1/80th the cross-sectional area. Now it's the rapier to the elephant gun's mace. Now what we appear to have is an unusually long range, very tightly focused, very brief and potent plasma torch, an intensely tiny rocket blast that by virtue of concentrating massive kinetic "punch" into a very tiny area, punches through steel like a nailgun through wood.
 
One way to concentrate the plasma stream some would be to spin the gas as it is turned into plasma so that it emerges something akin to a tornado where the stream is more coherent and shaped into a sort of stream rather than just randomly discharged.

Rifling. That would solve some of the dissipation problem. And make the range longer, too.
 
I've been doing a bit of math. Math is fun.

No it isn't. Seeing the implications of it is! :p

A cubic meter is a million cubic centimeters. A metric ton is 1000 kg or 1 million grams. Basic stuff, but it leads to this: if a ton of liquid hydrogen occupies 13.5 cubic meters (13.5 million cubic centimeters), then a gram of liquid hydrogen occupies 1 millionth of that, 13.5 cubic centimeters. That's in it's ever-so cold liquid state. Our guesses for the PGMP hydrogen charge have ranged from 2 to "a few" grams. That means a starting fuel charge occupying a minimum 27 cc. Now, that's approaching the size of a shell casing from the venerable Browning .50, and there's 40 such charges, 1080 cc. That 3 kg battery pack likely include a hydrogen reservoir. For later purposes, we will apply the 20mm diameter mentioned in book 4 and assume optimistically the fuel charge is a cylinder 2 cm in diameter by about 9 cm length (Pi R^2 H).

One thing I forgot earlier —— and it's a big oops on my part —— is that the muzzle energy is only PART of the recoil of a firearm.

The rest is the energy of the propellant lost out the front in "muzzle flash"...

So those numbers for rifle rounds are probably 5% shy or more. And the .600 Nitro Express has a big flash.


In fact, if we try to apply just enough of Newton for the thing to work, let's ditch that 20mm bit - it's killing us - call it a typo and let's say it's a 2mm pulse; that gives us the kinetic power of an elephant gun behind a jet of plasma with 1/80th the cross-sectional area. Now it's the rapier to the elephant gun's mace. Now what we appear to have is an unusually long range, very tightly focused, very brief and potent plasma torch, an intensely tiny rocket blast that by virtue of concentrating massive kinetic "punch" into a very tiny area, punches through steel like a nailgun through wood.

By the way, don't forget the possibility that the beam's path is cleared by laser before sending the plasma down it.
 
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Let's presume a 2g plasma bolt, and compare it to a high power rifle... say, a .30-06 and a barret .50

The .30-06 sends a 220gr (14g) round at 760m/s for 4043 J
The barret sends an 800gr (52g) round at 882m/s for 20,226 J
The PGMP sends 2g at 8000m/s for 64,000 J - 3x the recoil force of a barrett, before compensation.
Dividing those out by the mass of weapon and firer (60kg), plus 10kg other stuff

.30-06: 4.3kg (M1 Garand) Recoil index 54.6J/kg
.50 BMG: 13.5kg (short barrel) recoil index 242J/kg
PGMP12: 9kg (per CT Bk4), recoil index 810J/kg

But that comparison presumes an 8000m/s bolt... a number not taken from CT.

A technical point:

I believe it would be more accurate to calculate recoil's kick in terms of momentum rather than muzzle energy: velocity * mass, rather than velocity squared * mass.

This is why small bullets at high velocity have some advantages: more muzzle energy, less recoil.

Plasma gun fires a very low mass projectile at very high velocity.

- .30-06 sends a 220gr (14g) round at 760m/s.
- The barret sends an 800gr (52g) round at 882m/s: 5x recoil of 30-06.
- The PGMP sends 2g at 8000m/s for 64,000 J - 1.6x recoil of 30-06 but only 1/3 the recoil of the barret.

The PGMP is significantly easier to handle then the barret if the projectile mass assumption given above is accurate.

Technical point two: I wouldn't divide by mass of firer, just the mass of weapon. The important thing is the kick the firer feels, not how far the firer is pushed back... Doesn't do you much good if you break your arm.
 
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