Power plant question

[atpollard]

For a colony, at TL 9 ... FUSION is the answer. If you don't have water, you don't have a colony (drinking, farming, livestock, manufacturing), so "unrefined fuel" is FREE.

At TL 8, either vulnerable SOLAR, site specific available WIND/TIDE/GEOTHERMAL, or FISSION would seem to be the answer.

MHD only makes sense where HYDROCARBON fuel is readily available ... so if your planet has OIL ... or enough people to qualify as AG (for BIODEIESEL in mass production from the waste).

Just my free thoughts on the issue.

 

[Tobias]

You can produce hydrocarbon fuels from water and atmospheric carbon dioxide. We can do it now, but it's uneconomical on Earth. On a world without abundant fossil hydrocarbons, or where you want to nip this "release massive net amounts of CO2 in the atmosphere" business in the bud from the get-go, this may be different.

It would in theory be a good way to offset possible unreliability factors in solar or wind power: Produce snythetic hydrocarbons with excess renewable power when it is plentiful, burn them in reserve turbine P when it falls short.

 

[atpollard]

You can produce hydrocarbon fuels from water and atmospheric carbon dioxide. We can do it now, but it's uneconomical on Earth. On a world without abundant fossil hydrocarbons, or where you want to nip this "release massive net amounts of CO2 in the atmosphere" business in the bud from the get-go, this may be different.

It would in theory be a good way to offset possible unreliability factors in solar or wind power: Produce snythetic hydrocarbons with excess renewable power when it is plentiful, burn them in reserve turbine P when it falls short.

I suspect it would work as a supplemental source, but not as a primary source. Wind generating enough power to create hydrocarbons to offset the energy needs of the city reliant on wind power just feels like we are approaching a "perpetual motion machine" ... just use the hydrocarbons to power a fan to turn the wind turbines and "close the loop"

[I am just making fun of the tendency of Traveller Rules to ignore energy loss in systems and approach 100% efficiency while arguing ... but its TL 12!]

 

[McPerth]

we are approaching a "perpetual motion machine" ...

Side note:

Well, in MT we can already build a perpetual motion power plant.

Not sure if it would also work on Stiker, but for what I've been told I guess it could...

 

[Tobias]

No, of course you'd have sub-mediocre efficiency - which is one reason such a scheme is uneconomical on 2024 Earth without political incentives - but if self-sufficiency is your aim and there are no abundant sources of fossil fuels, it would probably be the best way to go at TL 8.

Fission is another possibility, but you would need a full-fledged nuclear industry, including a source of uranium, to support it if you want to be self-sufficient.

And of course there are biofuels, which @Carlobrand already mentioned IIRC. They are a less technological application of the same principle as synthetic fuels made with excess solar power: Turn water, atmospheric carbon dioxide and sunlight into hydrocarbons.

 

[Condottiere]

Sometimes, colony ships are meant to be cannibalized.

 

[mike wightman]

Fuels, especially hydrocarbon fuels, are energy storage.

It's all well and good having windmills and solar - until the wind isn't blowing or the night kicks in.

Use geothermal, solar, wind, hydro to generate electricity or transfer heat by all means, but if you want a high energy density storage/fuel then you would use your hydrogeowinsol to manufacture hydrocarbon fuel which can then be used in nighttime/windless conditions and in vehicles.

 

[Tobias]

Use geothermal, solar, wind, hydro to generate electricity or transfer heat by all means, but if you want a high energy density storage/fuel then you would use your hydrogeowinsol to manufacture hydrocarbon fuel which can then be used in nighttime/windless conditions and in vehicles.

That's the idea.

 

[chipla]

Honestly I’d expect the first thing most planets in the Imperium (and wider charted space) to import would be a fusion power plant.

Even if they only have power in the startown and capital/grand palace the comforts involved make the import worth it even if you don’t have the domestic technology to produce it yourself.

Iirc the fact that lower tech planets are willing to sell their souls for Fusion+ is the background to Pocket Empires.

Within the modern imperium (where your souls have already been figuratively sold) I don’t see any reason outside of cultural or religious Luddism to not buy fusion tech - at least for the upper classes.

 

[atpollard]

Per LBB5.80, at TL 7 ... Cr 4,000,000 will buy a 1 dTon, 0.25 EP [62 MW] FUSION Power Plant that runs on tap water (since misjumps are not a concern for small craft or cities). Per The Traveller Book, FUSION is available at TL 8. Per the TL Advancement Table, the LBB2.81 "A" Power Plant should be available at TL 9 ... when the MCr 4 LBB5 PP increases to 0.3 EP [83 MW] output.

[For comparison: MT TL 7 Solar Cells ... a 0.25 EP [62 MW] Solar Farm will cover 31,250 square meters; occupy 23 dTons; cost MCr 250.] *Note: these are book values, I did not check for errata.

To quote MC Hammer ... "Can't touch this!"

 

[Marcatlas]

Of course, it really depends on the environmental conditions. Different worlds would offer different possibilities: A tidally locked world could use solar panels on the bright side, and transfer energy to the habitable twilight zone; or make use of a large-scale heat differential machine. On the other hand, a world with massive tidal forces could utilize those.

I am assuming Earth like conditions. Otherwise there is no way to make a statement about it.

 

[Carlobrand]

Side note:

Well, in MT we can already build a perpetual motion power plant.

Not sure if it would also work on Stiker, but for what I've been told I guess it could...

I could use those with the solar panels and the fuel cells.

A thought: the game doesn't really address maintenance except vaguely - you need an engineer - and some stuff in Striker. I could see maintenance being a headache on smaller worlds, attracting people to come and live in the boonies to care for the colony's power plant, not to mention provisions for back up power if it breaks down, and arranging occasional monitoring visits or keeping a scout under contract to go get help if the place isn't getting regular space trade and something breaks. Rural Oklahoma, we've got medical "deserts" where you just aren't going to get routine medical care, much less emergency medicine, without a long drive. I could see something similar being an issue for the smaller colonies' maintenance needs in the hinterland. Maybe the Imperium has some sort of a program to help colonies meet such needs?

 

[warwizard]

World tamer's handbook has rules for colony scale power provision to TL 8 I recall. Could someone with a handy copy please take a look?

 

[atpollard]

A thought: the game doesn't really address maintenance except vaguely - you need an engineer - and some stuff in Striker. I could see maintenance being a headache on smaller worlds, attracting people to come and live in the boonies to care for the colony's power plant, not to mention provisions for back up power if it breaks down, and arranging occasional monitoring visits or keeping a scout under contract to go get help if the place isn't getting regular space trade and something breaks. Rural Oklahoma, we've got medical "deserts" where you just aren't going to get routine medical care, much less emergency medicine, without a long drive. I could see something similar being an issue for the smaller colonies' maintenance needs in the hinterland. Maybe the Imperium has some sort of a program to help colonies meet such needs?

I had given this some “tongue-in-cheek” thought when I calculated the 0.25 EP PP for a TL 7 world.

For the 23 dTon volume and MCr 250 price of the Solar Panel Farm … you could purchase Twenty-three 1 dTon TL 7 FUSION PP (LBB5) for a total volume of 23 dTons and a total price of MCr 92 (still cheaper than the Solar). You can now run ONE TL 7 Fusion PP for 12 months and when it comes due for annual maintenance, shut it off and turn on the next one. Repeat the process for 20 years and then have a TECH come and service all 20 PP that require annual maintenance. That still left a 3 PP reserve as a safety backup for emergencies. If the world manages to reach TL 8 in those 20 years, then you can service the PP with local Technology and experts and shift 22 of the 23 power plants to operation in new neighborhoods where they can be maintained on a regular basis.

 

[Condottiere]

 

[Carlobrand]

I had given this some “tongue-in-cheek” thought when I calculated the 0.25 EP PP for a TL 7 world.

For the 23 dTon volume and MCr 250 price of the Solar Panel Farm … you could purchase Twenty-three 1 dTon TL 7 FUSION PP (LBB5) for a total volume of 23 dTons and a total price of MCr 92 (still cheaper than the Solar). You can now run ONE TL 7 Fusion PP for 12 months and when it comes due for annual maintenance, shut it off and turn on the next one. Repeat the process for 20 years and then have a TECH come and service all 20 PP that require annual maintenance. That still left a 3 PP reserve as a safety backup for emergencies. If the world manages to reach TL 8 in those 20 years, then you can service the PP with local Technology and experts and shift 22 of the 23 power plants to operation in new neighborhoods where they can be maintained on a regular basis.

Funny thing about Traveller solar cells: you could cut the book cost by a factor of 20 and they'd still cost more than their real-world counterparts. On the other hand, you wouldn't get those magical power outputs, so there's that; the TL6 model is extremely optimistic, and everything after that is just plain magic, so maybe you're paying for that zero-point energy option.

What the devil is a Google patent? Some charlatan's trying to patent a zero point energy generator.

 

[atpollard]

Funny thing about Traveller solar cells: you could cut the book cost by a factor of 20 and they'd still cost more than their real-world counterparts. On the other hand, you wouldn't get those magical power outputs, so there's that; the TL6 model is extremely optimistic, and everything after that is just plain magic, so maybe you're paying for that zero-point energy option.

The MT people were between a rock and a hard place. Traveller Fusion is like Traveller Air Rafts ... it enters at such an early TL and has such magic performance (to enable "Space Opera") that it crushes all REAL WORLD future technologies.

• Why build a Space Shuttle, just buy an AirRaft.
• Why build SSTO Space Plane, just but an AirRaft.
• Why build a Bean Stalk (Space Elevator), just buy an AirRaft.

In the same way, FUSION+ at TL 7-8 (LBB5.80) renders Solar, Wind, Geothermal, Tidal, Hydroelectric, Internal Combustion all obsolete.

• Why build [anything] when you can just buy FUSION+?

The answer is ... there is no reason to. It is why TRAVELLER is a game dominated by Fusion Power and Air Rafts rather than MHD Generators and VTOL Aircraft/Cars. So MT was forced to push technologies close to 100% efficiency (or beyond) just to compete as a viable alternative. Only an IMTU referee FIAT will change the basic game mechanic bias.

[FIAT is what I do ... fusion/Grav is TL 10 ... so IMTU

• TL 4-6 is Historic Technology
• TL 7-9 is OTHER Future technology
• TL 10-12 is Fusion/AirRaft IMTU.
• TL 13-15 is yet another paradigm shift, but I seldom choose to adventure there; that becomes more like The Matrix or the Star Trek HOLO-DECK as the defining technology with fluid ship hulls that transform and nanotechnology that adapts to the user.]

 

[Marcatlas]

In the same way, FUSION+ at TL 7-8 (LBB5.80) renders Solar, Wind, Geothermal, Tidal, Hydroelectric, Internal Combustion all obsolete.

The answer is ... there is no reason to.

At TL 7 Fission renders all those obsolete too. Except for ICE for small applications. Heck, we have enough thorium to power the entire earth's nations for hundreds of thousands of years.

 

[atpollard]

At TL 7 Fission renders all those obsolete too. Except for ICE for small applications. Heck, we have enough thorium to power the entire earth's nations for hundreds of thousands of years.

"I" agree, however Earth's experience with TL 6 Fission has left the population resistant and the TL 4-7 infrastructure for things like Hoover Dam still exist ... so FREE beats building new every time. I suppose a point worth thinking about for the colony (parallel to real life) is "what does the 'Government' want?" Tariffs and Subsidies could tip the balance for an energy source from the obvious 'Free Market' choice to anything the FOUNDERS wanted. [The DUTCH CONSORTIUM insists that the colony have windmills, so WIND POWER it will be ... they paid for the Colony Startup and shipped MCr 10,000 worth of windmills and Tulip bulbs to the startup site.]

POST SELF EDITED PENDING REVIEW BY ANOTHER MODERATOR ... FYI: Let's tread light around politics and all stay out of the "Pit"

 

[whartung]

At TL 7 Fission renders all those obsolete too.

Demonstrably, it did not.

Fission is still a "mega" project, and it's Dangerous (for assorted values of Dangerous). Which made it also very expensive.

Traveller Fusion is of the Mr. Fusion variety to the point that vehicles have it built in, rather than running on batteries. There's a fusion generator parked outside of people houses, shopping centers, elementary schools, and government offices. And that's AOK.

"Yes, sir, it's fine to park your fusion powered car in the garage beneath the court room, but you'll need to leave that pen knife and tweezers at home."

Meanwhile, Fission is like coal. Nasty, dirty, and best kept away from people.

There was never any call for dotting nuclear fission generators across, say, Africa (where environmental regulations and, shall we say, "quite lax").

Now, we're simply coating the planet with solar panels.