Question for Referees and Players

[Sgt Biggles]

Great thoughts and a few things I had overlooked as well.

So…..you have been traveling cross country for the last 10 days or so, you're tired, your vehicle needs some work and you need to rest. You pull into a small farming community and ask to spend a few days with them. They agree provided you help clear some land of UXO's (something I hadn’t considered btw) and assist in strengthening some of their fences. They will also feed you your evening meal, allow you to use a barn and even stitch up some of the worn spots in your fatigues.

Is this a good trade off, provided someone in the group has the needed skills?

Suppose your group was approached by a farmer and asked to help clear a field. What would you consider as payment?

You approach a farmer and attempt to purchase food stuffs. What would you be willing to pay?

This is an area I am working through and the going is a little slow.

Thoughts?

 

[De Saint]

hi folks, just come across this place.

i had put this game down about 5 to 6 years ago and last weekend was asked to continue with a campain i had been running with this group of friends back then.

brain racking was not the word for it!!!

we did have a bit of a conflab about how things would have progressed with twilight:2004?

we decided for the time being to leave as is and give me some time to play catch up and work on stuff to to bring it up to current date.

so i will watch/read and start throwing my hat in the ring with stuff.

here is something else for you to consider

after say 5 years any vehicles you are using are going to be getting tired and your best sorce of spares,oil,lubes and the such are going to be off other vehicles that have been standing/neglected out in all weather.

it will not matter how good your mechanic is if the brake linnings have gone on the vehicle and he digs out the spare set only to have the lining brake off the baking becase the adesive has perished. a lot of things have a use by date.

smokes that are 4 or 5 years old would have to have been freeze dried to be anything like pleasant.

so would a dry as summer leaves pack have any trade value. personally i think it would be like trying to smoke a smoldering twig.

 

[William]

Two other items worth more than thier wieght in gold: salt (especially iodized, but any) and black pepper. Historically people paid obscene prices for both. The first is a dietary necessity and the second might as well be.

Tobacco is sensitive to cold - Zone 5 is as far north as it growes reliably. Any spare ground will be barley for old fashioned ale, for many of the same reasons it was historically.

Just some random thoughts.

William

 

[ecalupig]

I remember we had an pre-Twilight War game set in in the late 90's. We were a Soviet Category-B Motor Rifle Division recently mobilized and deployed to China and my character was a small time Moscow black marketeer recalled to duty as a tank driver. Game didn't last very long though, and much of my character's time was divided between saving his stash of Levis, bootleg CD's, and assorted other junk versus not getting killed. Hehehe

 

[kaladorn]

UXO removal is a twitchy business. It is risky, esp if doing it manually (mine probe and non-metallic tools) as opposed to using CLCs or at least Ground Penetrating Radar units. And also depends a lot on munition type, placement competency (if enemy expert engineers put it in place, there will be anti-handling devices), and the number of them (a mine or two from FASCAM, or a thick field laid by locals with lots of time and materials and lots of traps and such too).

So the value could be quite variable. How much time do you wish to put in? How much is a whole field worth to the farmer?

Or how much is some dental work done on his son or daughter, or the like?

Cigs would have to be recent production - there would still be some getting produced.... it's a valuable trade item.

Ether and other medical supplies and dental supplies would be handy.

Here's another couple of thoughts:
A case of toothbrushes.
A case of dental floss.
A case of mouthwash.
As pointed out, new vehicle parts. (Most will sit on a shelf for a long time... seals and such being the big issue, as well as lubricants.)
Spare sets of binoculars.
Small portable hand-crank generators.
Solar Cells.
Hand powered radios (we drop lots of these into remote parts of Africa today).
A case of water purification tablets.

As to vehicles, Cuba is keeping running, with minimal imports, a LOT of cars from the 1950s. It is truly amazing to see... and this is done by bootleg mechanics who've learned how to fab their own parts. Something tells me the same will be true in the future, though anything that totally depends on engine control modules or electronics will become less popular than mechanical systems - maybe people would haul older designs out of wreckers and musseums and try to rehab them.

Imagine trading in your HumVee and some heavy ordinance for a lovingly restored and maintained 1969 Dodge Charger....

 

[De Saint]

Originally posted by kaladorn:


As to vehicles, Cuba is keeping running, with minimal imports, a LOT of cars from the 1950s. It is truly amazing to see... and this is done by bootleg mechanics who've learned how to fab their own parts.

yes i agree with that but here is a problem for you...

i trained origally as a mechanic. i understand how all parts of a vehicle work. i was trained with the 'if you don't know how it works how can you fix it?' school. now in the years after my training and i mean few years the quality of new mechanics was a joke to say the least. 'fitter' would be a better title for them. they can remove a broken part and replace it with a new non-broken part. not too bad you say,but they could not think outside of that box and see a way of repairing the broken item. just changing it with a new one.

now my point being here. kitting up for a war. the training of the milatary mechanics would be still up to speed as best they can manage but training of civillians?. no fuel really availble,no collage to send the kids to learn, no power, so no lights, riots,no food... etc.etc. down the line.. you know what i'm saying

 

[De Saint]

Originally posted by Sgt Biggles:
Referees: If you were to start a Twilight campaign tomorrow would you set it in the original timeline (1995-2000) or advance the date to some point in the near future?

suppose i should answer the origanal question

my players and myself did jabber on about this very point and for the time being have decided to leave it sort of 'timeless' at the moment.

in all honesty i see the origonal timeline is going to be used, mostly because i have that much of the game books and such . plus for most of us it is in our 'recent history' and we do rememmber the cold war. 2 of the group even joined the army at that time. we did have a bit of a laugh in late '95 and said 'we sould be at war now'.

however this has another drawback. one of our group members has a son who wants to join in. i'm not talking a munchkin here he is mid teens. he has trouble with this area. he does not know of the situation we where in in the 80's with the USSR. when the wall came down he was not even talking.

if i was just doing stuff for myself and the more aged members of our little gaming group. the cold war era works fine. however if i'm making a product to sell now. it has to be based on current events to make the games best source background work. your memory and the world around you right now.

you explain to 14 year old kid what the cold war was like in the '80's. then tell him you watched the 1st terminator film at the cinama. (and you thought it was cool and special effects could be no better )

i'll think more on this ...latters

 

[kaladorn]

Originally posted by De Saint:
i trained origally as a mechanic. i understand how all parts of a vehicle work. i was trained with the 'if you don't know how it works how can you fix it?' school.

Dad and I (mostly Dad...) rebuilt a 35 Ford 3 window coupe. I know that type, and that (for my money) is the only *real* mechanic. A lot of today's guys depend on engine analyzers. OTOH, a lot of today's cars require a freakin' computer degree (oh wait, I've got one of those... must require something else... lobotomy?) to fix.... or even to figure out which sensor, transducer, positioner, feedback loop, etc. is bust.

now my point being here. kitting up for a war. the training of the milatary mechanics would be still up to speed as best they can manage but training of civillians?. no fuel really availble,no collage to send the kids to learn, no power, so no lights, riots,no food... etc.etc. down the line.. you know what i'm saying

Two points:
1. Some old guys are still around.
2. Some places, this has not been the case. Cuba, Eastern Europe, bits of Asia.
3. In desparate times, people will learn old skills or they'll die. If people in TW2000 couldn't get back to older style agriculture and self-sufficiency, they'll not be long for the world.

So, you have a very valid point... but I'm thinking you'll find resourceful folks will figure stuff out.

Heck, here's a thought:

A raid on an old technical school for their library! The books as trade goods or as a brain-trust which can be used to help power a recovery.

Knowledge is power, and moreso in times where key knowledge can make the difference between life and death.

 

[Sgt Biggles]

De Saint posted
....the origonal timeline is going to be used, mostly because i have that much of the game books and such . plus for most of us it is in our 'recent history' and we do rememmber the cold war. 2 of the group even joined the army at that time.

I myself would like to push the timeline forward about 15 years and just tweek the original events bit allowing them to fall into place. Whether or not the timeline moves is currently under discussion. Even so, it seems, from the posts here, most folks prefer the original timeline but with updated weapons lists. Thanks for your thoughts.

De Saint Posted
...however if i'm making a product to sell now. it has to be based on current events to make the games best source background work.

I agree. The goal now is to sell the idea of an alternate history, which the characters were part of. By 2004 game time, the world will still be damaged but progress has been made and technology is making a return. Of course this leads into the 2330 timeline and our first steps into colonizing space.

Kaladorn posted:
1. Some old guys are still around.

This is an excellent point. In our society the older generation is almost forgotten, yet they have the knowledge and experience of the past 100 years. In the Twilight World knowledge is truly power.

So along with a raid to gather old text books and source documents, a search for those with the knowledge might be undertaken. Maybe even a rescue. " My grandpa was kidnapped, please get him back ."

So the heros recover the books and rescue the old man, now what do they get for payment?

Excellent thoughts folks. I love this stuff.

 

[De Saint]

Originally posted by kaladorn:
Two points:
1. Some old guys are still around.
2. Some places, this has not been the case. Cuba, Eastern Europe, bits of Asia.
3. In desparate times, people will learn old skills or they'll die. If people in TW2000 couldn't get back to older style agriculture and self-sufficiency, they'll not be long for the world.

point 1. yes some old guys are about.. any mechanic over about 34 years of age. this is about the time there training would have been on the older vehicles and new fangled ecu black box nonsence was just starting. but to back this up the individual would need that best peice of training.... experience.

point 2. the thing about the places on that list. the technology sort of froze at that time. so any new mechanic would learn of old hands. there is no new technology coming in so they don't have to learn black box nonsence.
by that info.... they have a real good head start on the rest of civilation on keeping simple things going. we would have to start playing catch up real quick.

3. fair point and i know what i would be doing.. but how many people of the surving population will be waiting for government to do something. hell. they used to pay taxes. you will be suprised how many people are not prepared to help themselves and expect others to do it for them. 'your a solder! protect me. i paid your wages!'

 

[kaladorn]

Originally posted by De Saint:
point 1. yes some old guys are about.. any mechanic over about 34 years of age. this is about the time there training would have been on the older vehicles and new fangled ecu black box nonsence was just starting. but to back this up the individual would need that best peice of training.... experience.

Yep. That's where fellows like my Dad, who was never a formal mechanic, but who tore cars apart when he was a teen all the way through an antique car fixation (still got) would be invaluable. Perhaps one of your team has an 'antique car' hobby?

And yes, these guys would become valuable, even if they are a bit old and frail. Rescuing grandpa could be an *excellent* scenario.

point 2. the thing about the places on that list. the technology sort of froze at that time. so any new mechanic would learn of old hands. there is no new technology coming in so they don't have to learn black box nonsence.

Ask me why the car ignition moved from the dash where it was easy to get at and went into the control column with ten other sets of controls all of which tend to now go at once and be hard to get to. Or why ABS sensors on a truck are installed so low on the vehicle and in such a position as to be exposed to salt and such. California cube-ville engineers. Or Osaka glass-tower gurus.

by that info.... they have a real good head start on the rest of civilation on keeping simple things going. we would have to start playing catch up real quick.

Except for their problems with work ethic, with absenteeism, alcoholism, and low productivity, and corruption corruption corruption... yeah.

The real winners in 2K are those who can couple the 'basic' know how with the drive and determination to do the job right. But then, if the other option is starving or dying of cold or who knows what... there is some incentive!

3. fair point and i know what i would be doing.. but how many people of the surving population will be waiting for government to do something. hell. they used to pay taxes. you will be suprised how many people are not prepared to help themselves and expect others to do it for them. 'your a solder! protect me. i paid your wages!'

Reply: I always thought I was underpaid. What are you paying me now? Not enough. Now pay more. More yet. More yet again. Okay, that's enough. For this week.

You're right, of course, but some people are going to become valuable (and not Hollywood plastic surgeons or glitterati). And those who won't do, won't do. They'll starve, be turfed out of their communities by the hard workers, or end up freezing their arse off because they wouldn't cut firewood. Welcome to the harsh world of TW2K.

 

[De Saint]

Originally posted by Sgt BigglesI myself would like to push the timeline forward about 15 years and just tweek the original events bit allowing them to fall into place. Whether or not the timeline moves is currently under discussion. Even so, it seems, from the posts here, most folks prefer the original timeline but with updated weapons lists. Thanks for your thoughts.

so at what point did world war III happen?

still '95 and by 2004 we are starting the long clamb back to 'the life' or does it start a bit later going of the original layout.. 1984 to 2000 so with this 2004 to 2020.. and the war starting to kick off in 2015-ish?

you will not really have to update much in the equipment.. everything in use will still be in service then.. just some oddities to deal with. like that is about the time the British army is looking at the end life of the sa 80 assult rifle. virtually all of the current vehicles are going to be at the end of service life.

i think you will have to reel the start date of the war in so that the current equipment in use now is still as is and anything new appears. well deal with that later. if it turns up only 6 months after numbers of that equipment are going to be that small you have a real easy get out for tech heads who want everything new and shiny.

no you can't have a g36 assult rifle... only a few thousand have been made and you are a infantry cook!! get real

 

[Sgt Biggles]

Posted by De Saint...so at what point did world war III happen?

This was my original submission idea and very short and is not the working history at this time.

Between 2010 and 2015 the German Economy and political forces clash, once again dividing the nation. Initially the division is along political lines but shortly after the start of the war it is split geographically as well.

Russia's leadership returns to hard core Marx, through force and negotiations they recover the majority of what was the Eastern Block and begin rebuilding. In 2015, Russia steps into China thinking to make a quick conquest of northern China's resources. They were wrong.

Push comes to shove, treaties kick in, 3rd class countries take the opportunity to attack their neighbors and a dozen boarder wars kick off. This escalates as Russia is attacked by China's nuclear weapons in 2018. Russia, already fighting on their western front turn toward Europe in an attempt to regain lost resources.

WMD's are used, then tac nukes, to strategic military and industry nuke strikes. By the end of 2018 the full exchange has happen and the first nuclear winter hits.

Through 2019 reserves are all used up, fighting starts to die down. The second winter hits. By March of 2020 NATO decides to make one last major offensive in an attempt to have clearly defined boundaries. The drive goes bad around Kalisz and the game starts.

Several new weapons systems are scheduled to be released in the next 5 to 10 years, however, they are all very technologically dependant and would be virtually useless by 2020. As part of the above timeline France closes it borders and as such is the first country to recover, leading the way into 2330.

I have been using the above scenario for about eight years on my home games. Even though I like the forward scenario, working an alternate history in 1995-2000 is fun because there are a few major events from the real world which we get to tweak and bend to make them fit.

From talking with players and referees, the general consensus is "it’s the play and atmosphere which really counts" and the actual timeline is only a nice background touch that only the really hardcore gamers are even going to pay attention to.

I like reading others thoughts as doing so has opened several new areas I hadn't considered. Thanks.

 

[kaladorn]

One interesting alternate scenario is the hopefully-to-be-avoided-but-maybe-not USA/PRC conflict. That could take us to a T2K scenario, with folks like Russia mucking in.

Humphrey Hawksley (former BBC correspondent) wrote a book that started out with PRC invading Tibet and going from there... Pakistan and India slugged it out with China getting involved. And Japan (pragmatically) staying pretty quiet. USA was 'backed off' by Russia, as they felt it was a Regional Matter for the RimPac area. And of course, the NZ/Aussies waded in with their SBS.

Interesting in that it was a limited nukewar scenario based around a conflict with China. End result - China gets a bit more say, India and Pakistan are badly beaten up, and the US is backed off and restricted to this half of the globe (effectively). Set up for a bang-up conflict in any follow on.

Oh, and on another note:
If your player want a G-36, give him one. It's not much better than an M-16/M-4... and parts are *far* harder to get.

Me, I can live with crappy AK-74 accuracy... as long as I can get parts...

 

[De Saint]

maybe add one of them doomsday cults like they had in japan gassing the subway. instead of gas they have something a little more instant. 0.5kt nuke going off in down town hyroshima again would be crippling. fingers would get pointed.

maybe even a western country. pick any country in europe. a device of that size would throw that country in to turmoil. no health service would cope the that amount of injured, civil defence mesures would be totally inadaquate. then you have to start evacuating the population from the footprint of the device laying waste to large strips of the country.

after some digging around the secret services find that the device was 'donated' by a country that had 'an interest' in seeing certain other countries too occupied in other matters to be of any effective resitance to them whilst they get on with the master plan.

 

[PBI]

Coming to this topic late, I know, but I would, and do, use the original timeline from v2.0, which is the only rules set I have. I like the v2.0 history slightly better than v1.0, though 1.0 is perfectly fine

 

[mike wightman]

So, even GDW updated their future history due to the real world catching up. I didn't know that since I only have first edition.

 

[Eamon]

Why even bother with a history it seems most people like to come up with their own. Why should we get stuck in Traveller Canon or non-canon mode.
All we need are the rules and structure to create a consistent environment. What are the rules concerning weapons and vehicles? If I want to have a world wide plague what are the disease rules? On these forums people mentioned all different campaigns with different outcomes.
Other than a Basic rule set I would like to see a vehicle or weapons guides that cover the worlds most important military equipment from 1930 to 2030.
I rather have that then a history that going to be outdated 6 months after printing.

 

[PBI]

I'd like to see a timline extrapolated form history. It worked for the original versions and was a big part of what made T2K unique.

 

[calico_jack73]

I'd prefer to play the original timeline. The timeline of the game doesn't have to match real-life anymore than a fantasy game set in Europe has to match real history.