Rapid fire infantry laser weapons

[sabredog]

Maybe the aerosol cloud is held in place by a gravitic effect?s

Maybe, I dunno. It seems wrong to me, because if there was some sort of gravity mechanism why wouldn't it be able to hold the could for the full four turns you get if the vehicle is stationary?

Paint used inside the hull? The synthetic seat covers? Cabling and tubing or various sorts? Could everything inside the vehicle be fireproofed?s

The guys inside are not fireproof. And I can't imagine that much would be when a multi-megawatt laser lances through and relatively small, sealed up place. Heck, given that most of these vehicles will be sealed up tight with either a life support or over-pressure system the heat from the laser, and plasma generated by the vaporizing metals and interior bits, might cause the air inside to detonate and burn. Any pyrophoric round will do that now, so it is easy to imagine a battlefield laser doing the same and worse.

But were those batteries designed with a late 70's-early 80's perspective in mind? I remember seeing my first mobile phone being used by a journalist at a street march in about 1992 - quite a brick! The battery design rules on TNE FF&S were far more inclusive of different tech levels

Regardless of the technology, unless it is some magic physics involved the sudden uncontrolled release of several megawatts of stored energy from a shorting capacitor is bound to be spectacular. And the rupture of the containment vessel for the fusion drive is likewise going to create a catastrophic explosion inside the vehicle.

 

[Carlobrand]

... And the rupture of the containment vessel for the fusion drive is likewise going to create a catastrophic explosion inside the vehicle.

You had me right up until that point. The prototype Imperial Marine Grav APC puts out 156 megawatts, consuming about 65 milliliters of fuel per second. If we imagine that carefully delivered energy escaping instead through an unnatural hole in the power plant, that's still only equivalent to about 37 kilos of TNT. As it is contained within a vessel that on its weakest face is equivalent to four feet of steel, I suspect the worst we're liable to see is venting from some ports and maybe hatches getting blown off. And the crew smashed to fried paste, of course. Not so much an explosion as a fusion gun going off in a confined space. :devil:

Tell me more about that air burning business. How does that work?

 

[Ulsyus]

It wouldn't so much be the air burning would it, rather that the air being superheated by the laser and expanding explosively. Or are there other physics going on there?

 

[sabredog]

It wouldn't so much be the air burning would it, rather that the air being superheated by the laser and expanding explosively. Or are there other physics going on there?

Yes. My bad for not being clearer.

 

[Ulsyus]

Regardless of the technology, unless it is some magic physics involved the sudden uncontrolled release of several megawatts of stored energy from a shorting capacitor is bound to be spectacular. And the rupture of the containment vessel for the fusion drive is likewise going to create a catastrophic explosion inside the vehicle.

Is there another explanation for this one, or would it come down to the same problem as with a high-energy beam penetrating the vehicle? I just have vague memories of seeing something like Mythbusters on TV years ago doing an experiment to show that cars didn't explode as commonly shown on the screen (that being more a function of fuel vapour rather than the fuel itself).

Plus, wouldn't we be underwhelmed by a breach of a Fusion+ reactor?

 

[sabredog]

"Underwhelmed" is relative to who is participating in the breach. To the outside observer the tank is probably going to go out of control and crash (more or less) depending on the suspension and speed: a hovertank or grav going 200kph + at NOE is going to look pretty impressive. A ground vehicle less so.

The plasma is going to make a spectacular mess of the tank inside, and out, as I would imagine it vaporizing the surrounding structures in short order, which is going to cause a lot of superheated air and vapors inside the tank to expand fast.

Now, whether or not this means the turret pops off like a cork and flies away like we see in film of tanks getting blown up in WW2 or not? I dunno, maybe. Maybe not so dramatically. But for sure what is defined as "brewed up" in our time will have an analog in future armor combat and that is all that is needed for describing whatever defines a catastrophic kill in one's own mind's eye of future combat.

 

[Carlobrand]

Well, lessee:

Call it 65 milliliters of fuel at the point in time where the laser cuts a hole. That fuel is busily trying to fuse and release energy equivalent to 37 pounds of TNT when that happens, something the plant can normally contain and turn into something useful. (Yes, I'm mixing metric and American, MWAHAHAAAA!!)

However, at this micro-instant, there's a hole in the plant and the fields are collapsing. 65 milliliters of what is now a hydrogen-helium mix at several million degrees and unglaublich pressure - presently releasing 156 megajoules as gamma and x-ray and other goodies - expands, stops releasing gamma and x-ray 'cause it's no longer fusing, and grabs the path of least resistance. Much of it goes shooting out the hole, which is mostly very sad for whoever happens to be near that hole. The rest of it busies itself trying to vaporize and/or liquify 26 tons of power plant.

Keeping in mind that it takes 340 kilojoules to vaporize 56-ish grams of iron, that this plant is 26 tons of what is probably something stronger than iron, and that the core routinely accepts 156 megajoules per second of gamma and x-ray and other goodies but might be less tolerant of actual contact with the plasma - and especially a sudden expansion of it - I see a narrow cone of plasma jetting out with deadly speed, force, and heat along the path created by the laser, a power plant whose core is wrecked, maybe the plant cracks under the sudden smack of the expanding high-pressure plasma against the core walls, and maybe a bit of plasma vents through the crack. If the laser's path happened to be through the crew compartment, then it's roughly analogous to the crew compartment being penetrated by a fusion gun as the plasma vents into there. If the laser punched through on a route that doesn't pass through the crew compartment, then it's a poorly focused fusion gun frying whoever happens to be outside the tank near the hole, and what happens to the bit that escapes through cracks in the plant depends on how the engine compartment is constructed.

 

[Ulsyus]

(Yes, I'm mixing metric and American, MWAHAHAAAA!!)

Yes, we know, you're frickin evil.

However, at this micro-instant, there's a hole in the plant and the fields are collapsing. 65 milliliters of what is now a hydrogen-helium mix at several million degrees and unglaublich pressure - presently releasing 156 megajoules as gamma and x-ray and other goodies - expands, stops releasing gamma and x-ray 'cause it's no longer fusing, and grabs the path of least resistance. Much of it goes shooting out the hole, which is mostly very sad for whoever happens to be near that hole. The rest of it busies itself trying to vaporize and/or liquify 26 tons of power plant.

Did I say the wrong thing with Fusion+? I thought that was considered cold fusion done right by Cleon I's company?

 

[aramis]

Yes, we know, you're frickin evil.



Did I say the wrong thing with Fusion+? I thought that was considered cold fusion done right by Cleon I's company?

That's what it was in T4... many people ignore that.
Many more are simply unaware of it.

 

[Carlobrand]

...Many more are simply unaware of it.

Such as me, for example.

 

[nobby-w]

Rambling thoughts.


So, I'm confronted with the lack of high tech rapid fire weapons in CT. Not too terribly curious, when you look closely - it's taking more and more power to punch through the armor, so the rapid-fire weapons with the punch to do that tend to be confined to vehicles, since they have the power. Still, there are ways.

[...]

I tackled this on a few fronts for a TL11/12 universe set as the 2nd Imperium is coming apart. Most of this is based on standard Striker but there are a few key bits of tech I bodged onto the base striker system.

Machineguns at higher tech levels

AP ammunition for heavy machineguns. Today's tech can make .50 calibre AP rounds that will go through 30mm or so at a few hundred metres range. This gives you a penetration of (say) 12 or so at effective range. AP ammunition of this type might be current tech between TL 8-10 or so. You could also do variants of the LAG firing the same ammunition.

Machineguns firing ACR ammunition. This might have a slightly longer effective range than the standard ACR, perhaps effective:50, long: 100. This is reasonably effective against troops equipped with combat environment suits, starting to show its age against combat armour.

I also did rotary guns firing HMG and ACR ammunition. Even in a TL10-11 battlefield these would be effective as (for example) door gun mounts (i.e. side-mounted pintel) on a grav sled or coaxial mounts on some other vehicle. They would, however, consume too much ammunition to be feasible as infantry weapons.

You could also do some rules for high-tech AP rounds for ACRs - perhaps TL12 superdense rounds. These might have a penetration of 8 at effective range and 4 at long range.

A closer look at the 2cm autocannon

In the high-tech ammunition theme, I did some rules for KEAP rounds to reflect APDS and APFSDS type technologies - the standard KEAP round penetrations in Striker don't really do justice to these and IMHO KEAP rounds are a bit underpowered in the base system.

Rather than adding 1 per tech level, I invented a series of specific technologies, with some enhancements at various tech levels, for example:

• KEAP-DS: TL6, TL8, TL10, TL12 (superdensse)
• KEAP-FSDS: TL7, TL9, TL10, TL12 (superdense)

As an example A Nexter M621 20mm cannon weighs (at 47kg) about the same as an electrically operated 2cm Med veloc autocannon designed with Striker. It's too big for an infantry weapon but could be mounted on a grav sled or light vehicle. 20mmx102 AP rounds will penetrate around 5cm of RHA^! at a few hundred metres, suggesting an effective range penetration of something like 16-18.

Lasers
If you handwave a bit and allow battery powered lasers, you can make anti-personnel lasers. These are really too big for infantry weapons, but could be fitted to light vehicles.

I also did a house rule of a variable laser that can fire as a 1 lens or a 4/8 lense pulse laser. Given that the same effect can be achieved by mounting two lasers on a vehicle I don't see it affecting game balance significantly (lasers in Stargrunt can do this, which is where I originally cribbed the idea from).

For this type of laser, 1.4MW with 4 lenses is a sweet spot, giving an effective range of 70cm with a penetration of 16 and a long range of 140cm with a penetration of 8. Hit DM is only +2, but sh*t happens.

Fired in a single-lens mode, the effective range penetration is 32, which is enough to be effective against light armoured vehicles.

The weapon weighs about 90kg and could be mounted on a light vehicle with a 1m³ power plant. If you power it with batteries at TL11, 6kg are needed to power it for a single phase.

Point defence weapons and the dawn of air not-so-superiority

I also did some IMTU-isms where more powerful lasers fitted with point defence fire control are very effective air defence weapons, sufficiently so to make anything flying in high mode quite vulnerable to ground fire. This also neatly explains the prevalence of tank-like grav vehicles designed to operate in NOE mode.

PD fire control also means that Tac missiles are less effective against an enemy equipped with point defence weapons. They're also very effective against artillery. For example, consider the implications of issuing a battalion or brigade with a few towed or self-propelled VRF Gauss Guns fitted with TL 9-10 PD fire control. This is before we even get started on retconning Trophy-like vehicle mounted PD systems back into Striker.

Larger crew-served energy weapons

Now, air power, tac missiles and indirect fire are somewhat less effective unless you're in a position to saturate (and, yes, I have been guilty of designing 500t self-propelled mass drivers in the past). I did some house rules limiting the ROF of large calibre autocannons and mass drivers to balance them against the capabilities of point defence weapons.

This gets you a battlefield where crew-served direct fire weapons and tanks or other AFVs are more important - perhaps a slightly WWII-ish flavour.

For example, pimp the B-gun slightly to around 17MW so it has a burst at extreme range. Then put it on a grav chassis with a 6m³ power plant and a decent slug of frontal armour. This gives you a crew-served B-gun that can support infantry (admittedly at a cost). You could make similar chassis for X or Y guns at higher tech levels.

This might not be the most efficient use of the tech, but I like the aesthetics as they're reminiscent of the sort of things one might see on cover illustrations from golden age sci-fi books.

¹ A couple of citations of questionable reliability but probably not too far out:
http://www.steelbeasts.com/sbwiki/index.php?title=Ammunition_Data, http://defence.pk/threads/tank-ammunition.268307/#post-4588897

 

[kilemall]

What's probably not so realistic about reflec is that all that heat just goes away.

Should probably be that reflec saves you from laser-induced explosions in your limbs and thoracic cavity, but you get burns from the overheating of the reflec fabric from all that deflected laser energy.

 

[nobby-w]

What's probably not so realistic about reflec is that all that heat just goes away.

Should probably be that reflec saves you from laser-induced explosions in your limbs and thoracic cavity, but you get burns from the overheating of the reflec fabric from all that deflected laser energy.

The heat would go away if it was reflected. However, if it was worn under other armour, that armour would still heat up enough to be an issue.

 

[epicenter00]

Maybe the aerosol cloud is held in place by a gravitic effect?

At TL14, there may be technologies that are unimaginable to us today. Perhaps the prismatic aersol is actually deployed in a cloud of very microscopically thin filaments which hold their form by a current running through them. When the cloud is hit, it instantly vaporizes to form the so-called prismatic aersol effect.

Perhaps at higher speeds, the "cloud" doesn't really hold up, but provided the tank is going under 100kph or something, it might be fine.

Yes, the "cloud" would probably show up hugely on sensors because of all the electricity, but by the time you're using countermeasures, you're already seen anyway. However, that signature is why everyone does fly their Trepidas around with the aerosol clouds up all the time.

At lower TLs instead of a "cloud" it might be an airgel-like substance so it has certain resistance to simply blowing away.

Paint used inside the hull? The synthetic seat covers? Cabling and tubing or various sorts? Could everything inside the vehicle be fireproofed?

I've always thought that given what we know about the human body in vacuum now (we don't actually need the bulky spacesuits we have now), plus the fact these Trepidas are vacuum-rated, and finally that electrical power is pretty plentiful in an Imperial-standard tank because each one has a fusion reactor ... why not fly around with an interior vacuum or near-vacuum? The crew would wear semi-armored (or totally armored) "skinsuit" type spacesuits with their own life support (backup) but normally plugged into the vehicle's life support. A lack of atmosphere would eliminate overpressure from impacts, the lack of oxygen would smother fires. The tank would be self-sealing, not so preserve the interior atmosphere, but instead to allow the atmosphere to be pumped back out to return the interior to "safe" vacuum.

So why would one seek to arm power-armoured troops with a heavy laser rifle rather than a PGMP? As a sniping weapon?

Finesse or rather, an ability to adjust your firepower the situation at hand.

I've always thought the idea of a "PGMP for every man" to be sort of silly.

A PGMP is essentially a fully-automatic rapid-fire rocket launcher (this assumption is from the modelling of effects in TNE - I don't recall if PGMPs had explosive effects in other versions of Traveller, if they're not, then this explanation doesn't work so well).

So PGMPs are spectacular if you enjoy watching things explode, but I've always seen one problem with them:

What if you don't want to level everything in sight? And if you didn't really care about how much damage you did in the area you're fighting in, why do you even need PGMPs? At the Imperial ground force TL (TL14) there's any number of highly-destructive and relatively cost-effective per-shot weapons that have no unfavorable political effects (eg; they're not Chem/Bio/Nuclear weaponry) that can be fired from a safe distance if precision aiming is no longer a concern (and if you're letting a battalion of marines go ronco with PGMPs I can't imagine limiting collateral damage is a concern).

I'd think if you're sending the Imperial Marines in, you have an interest in leaving things standing, you have an interest in keeping collateral damage and incidental casualties to a minimum. A laser I think is a much more precise weapon than a PGMP in this case.

 

[nobby-w]

I'd think if you're sending the Imperial Marines in, you have an interest in leaving things standing, you have an interest in keeping collateral damage and incidental casualties to a minimum. A laser I think is a much more precise weapon than a PGMP in this case.

I suppose it's a bit IMTU, but I treat battle dress/PGMP armed troops a combination of support weapon and shock troops - normally deployed 1-2 in a fire team with a couple of unpowered flunkies to guard their back. These troops might be armed with lasers or gauss rifles.

A powered section might have an assault team and a support team. The assault team has two battle dress operators with energy weapons and two unpowered troops with something like gauss rifles. The support team has something like a RAM grenade launcher (maybe another PGMP/FGMP at higher tech levels), some sort of rapid fire weapon (e.g. a heavier gauss rifle/support weapon) and a couple of unpowered support troops with gauss rifles. There may be an additional squad leader with a laser carbine for target designation. There may be heavier anti-tank weapons or something analagous to a carl-gustav (capable of firing target-designated ammunition) somewhere in the mix.

The role of the unpowered troops is to assist the powered troops and guard their back.

These would be specialised assault battalions - likely to be mixed in with unpowered infantry battalions in a brigade, or possibly dispersed as company or platoon sized stiffeners to a larger infantry formation (mobile or otherwise).

 

[kilemall]

The fiber laser tech being developed into deployable weapons will likely allow a gatling laser approach to rapid fire.