Ratio of terms to skills in Traveller characters.

[joshualevy]

I'm working on an NPC / Patron for a Traveller scenario that I hope to publish. I wanted to make sure this NPC was not wildly overpowered or underpowered for other people's Traveller Universes. My understanding of Traveller character generation (based on 3LBBs and Cepheus Engine) is that a mature character is likely to have between 1 and 2 skills per term; maybe 2.5 max. (Depending on how much money, stuff and attribute enhansements the character got.)

But when I look at actual characters (for example, "Up Close and Personal" in Freelance Traveller), I see that the actual ratio goes from about 1 to 5. So there are some characters that have 7 terms but about 28 skills in total. I was specifically ignoring characters from GURPS and T20 rules.

Am I missing something? What is the average ratio from terms to skills for the NPCs in your world? Are some Traveller Universes just "overpowered" when it comes to skills per term?

Joshua Levy

 

[McPerth]

This depends on the traveller edition you're playing, and, in the case of CT (and to lesser extent in MT, where even basic Chargen can give you more skills), if you use Advanced Chargen. Probably, those characters you talk about are not generated with LBB1-3.

 

[GypsyComet]

Am I missing something?

Service and Rank auto awards, Service schools (in CT and MT advanced methods), conversion of muster benefits (in MGT1), Campaign draft skills (also MGT1), and similar.

A Basic CT or MT character who fails every advancement (Commission and Promotion) roll will likely end up at one skill per term, but has a fair chance to be close to or just above two skills per term if they make all those rolls. MT Scouts pull two per term normally.

Remember also that CT Book 1 handles weapon skills differently than all revisions that followed, making the comparisons even more strained.

 

[Nathan Brazil]

The progressions are different from game to game. I think you are mistaken with Cepheus though. It does not progress like CT.

In Cepheus RAW, even a dumb as bricks (EDU 2) character:
18 year old will get 1 background skill at level 0 before entering a career. (pg 25) It is 3+EDU DM (so between 1 (EDU 2) and 5 (EDU 12)).
As part of basic training, they get all 6 service skills at level 0 (pg 28). Even with overlaps that is at least 6 skills. Not 2 like CT. In addition you get basic training before making the survival check. As there is no flow chart or outline that states the specific order, I read the text quite literally from top to bottom page to page.

0 term 18 year olds will have between 1-5 skill/levels (all 0)
1 term who survive will have between 6-14 skill/levels. Six service skills + some careers like Athletes and Scouts have the hidden 7th skill simply for being a Rank 0 Athlete or Scout + 1 for Surviving the Term. Unlike Mongoose Traveller or CT, which Cepheus is patterned off of, RAW there is no "instead of" mentioned for Basic Training, or "subsequent terms" either.
If you use the the Optional Injury Rule, you would still have the Basic Training skills even if you fail the Survival Roll for a Regular Skill Benefit as Basic Training occurs before Survival Roll.

 

[Nathan Brazil]

So From Cepheus this is what you can get:

Non-Ranked Careers
Terms Age Levels Types
0 18 1-5 Background:1-5
1 22 9-15 Background:1-5 Basic Training: 6 Rank 0: 0-2 Training: 2 Mustering Out (Weapon Skill): 0
2 26 10-18 Background:1-5 Basic Training: 6 Rank 0: 0-2 Training: 4 Mustering Out (Weapon Skill): 0-1
3 30 11-21 Background:1-5 Basic Training: 6 Rank 0: 0-2 Training: 6 Mustering Out (Weapon Skill): 0-2
4 34 12-24 Background:1-5 Basic Training: 6 Rank 0: 0-2 Training: 8 Mustering Out (Weapon Skill): 0-3
5 38 13-27 Background:1-5 Basic Training: 6 Rank 0: 0-2 Training: 10 Mustering Out (Weapon Skill): 0-4
6 42 14-30 Background:1-5 Basic Training: 6 Rank 0: 0-2 Training: 12 Mustering Out (Weapon Skill): 0-5
7 46 15-33 Background:1-5 Basic Training: 6 Rank 0: 0-2 Training: 14 Mustering Out (Weapon Skill): 0-6

Ranked Careers
Terms Age Levels Types
0 18 1-5 Background:1-5
1 22 8-16 Background:1-5 Basic Training: 6 Rank 0: 0-2 Commision and Advancement: 0-2 Training: 1 Mustering Out (Weapon Skill): 0
2 26 9-19 Background:1-5 Basic Training: 6 Rank 0: 0-2 Commision and Advancement: 0-3 Training: 2 Mustering Out (Weapon Skill): 0-1
3 30 10-23 Background:1-5 Basic Training: 6 Rank 0: 0-2 Commision and Advancement: 0-4 Training: 3 Mustering Out (Weapon Skill): 0-3
4 34 11-27 Background:1-5 Basic Training: 6 Rank 0: 0-2 Commision and Advancement: 0-5 Training: 4 Mustering Out (Weapon Skill): 0-5
5 38 12-32 Background:1-5 Basic Training: 6 Rank 0: 0-2 Commision and Advancement: 0-6 Training: 5 Mustering Out (Weapon Skill): 0-8
6 42 13-34 Background:1-5 Basic Training: 6 Rank 0: 0-2 Commision and Advancement: 0-6 Training: 6 Mustering Out (Weapon Skill): 0-9

 

[nobby-w]

[ . . . ]
is that a mature character is likely to have between 1 and 2 skills per term; maybe 2.5 max. (Depending on how much money, stuff and attribute enhansements the character got.)

But when I look at actual characters (for example, "Up Close and Personal" in Freelance Traveller), I see that the actual ratio goes from about 1 to 5.
[ . . . ]

It depends on the system that you use. Extended systems such as Book 4: Mercenary average quite a lot more skills per term than a standard LBB1-3, and Megatraveller and various other systems tend to average more too.

 

[Leitz]

Why shouldn't an NPC have more skills than PCs? What defines "power", anyway?

I think if you make a good story with interesting characters you'll find little to worry about.

 

[ShawnDriscoll]

Classic Traveller focused more on character attributes than on skills. Mongoose focuses more on skills. There is no power trip with either version.

 

[flykiller]

What defines "power", anyway?

the task system that implements the skill. in atpollard's task system skill level 1 means a lot. in my game skill level 1 means basic competence. in other task systems skill level 1 may mean "I heard someone talk about it once".

since the op cannot know his consumers' task systems, he cannot provide pre-balanced npc's as he wishes. he might be better off assuming a given task system and simply implementing that, or briefly describing each npc's skillsets and allowing the referees to convert the npc's to their own games as they see fit.

 

[McPerth]

Classic Traveller focused more on character attributes than on skills. Mongoose focuses more on skills. There is no power trip with either version.

I fully disagree on this. In CT a character with average atributes but losts of skills (probably Advanced Chargen) is quite better than another with all atrributes above average but few or no skills.

Also, most CT defined tasks (the few there are) are more skill focussed than attribute focused. Skills may give DMs of +1 to +4 per skill level (and -5 if unskilled, IIRC. if allowed at all), while attributes may give modifiers from --2 to +2...

T4 and (for what I've read) T5 are really attribute focused, as skill uses to be a small part of the target number.

 

[ShawnDriscoll]

I fully disagree on this. In CT a character with average atributes but losts of skills (probably Advanced Chargen) is quite better than another with all atrributes above average but few or no skills.

Also, most CT defined tasks (the few there are) are more skill focussed than attribute focused. Skills may give DMs of +1 to +4 per skill level (and -5 if unskilled, IIRC. if allowed at all), while attributes may give modifiers from --2 to +2...

T4 and (for what I've read) T5 are really attribute focused, as skill uses to be a small part of the target number.

I fully disagree on this.

 

[Nathan Brazil]

Classic Traveller focused more on character attributes than on skills. Mongoose focuses more on skills. There is no power trip with either version.

Not from a game balance standing between two characters made using the same game system
BUT
you get more skill benefit rolls and opportunities for skills RAW in MgT1E, MgT2E, Cepheus and the other 2d6 Traveller games compared to LBB1-3. In the newest ones you have Homeworld Skills, Basic Education Skills before entering a career, PLUS Event Rolls during a career PLUS the Group Skill Package.

So if you convert characters and adventures from one system to another, or roll them using one system and then just dump the UPP and skill profile out, one cannot always tell easily what system you used to roll the character.
Generate a 1 term Scout using LBB1-3 and one using MgT1e and yes the MgT1e Scout appears appears more powerful.

In addition, RAW, the arrangement of skills makes a difference in power. The easy example is Pilot. In LBB Pilot and Ship's Boat are two distinct and separate skills which do not overlap. To pilot everything you need to receive TWO Skill Picks. In MgT1e, Pilot is a Cascade, but Level 0 allows you to pilot all spacecraft and starships, so you only need ONE pick of Pilot to fly everything. In both cases that is what is needed to avoid penalties for not having the appropriate skill.

As, a Referee, you can fiat however you like, but RAW characters in CT APPEAR weaker because there are generally less "words" in the character's list of skills and levels.

 

[mike wightman]

Classic Traveller focused more on character attributes than on skills.

If by attributes you mean characteristics (Str Dex End etc) then I disagree; if you mean the holistic characteristics of the character - service, number of terms, characteristics, skills - then I agree.

In CT you can attempt anything you want to - having a particular skill, high attribute or specialist tool may or may not help depending on the situation as the referee sees it.

From MT through to MgT it has become a skill focused game where you have to have a task library and the correct skill to attempt a task.

Mongoose focuses more on skills. There is no power trip with either version.

This I agree with.

 

[kilemall]

We've had discussions on this in the CT forum, I opened up a thread on deflating skills from LBB4+ characters while getting a lot of their skills plus later version skills I think essential available to LBB1/S4 chargen.

One of the critical things you look at when assessing 'skillflation' is how specific and narrow a skill is.

Engineering for instance is a huge skill encompassing operations and repair of a LOT of tech. In later editions it's broken down into specific cascades and therefore is less powerful per level.

Conversely it takes more skills of a cascade chargen version to match say a CT Engineering-3.

The gun/blade sklls are an example of very specific CT skills that get broader in different versions, from specific guns to categories of guns. It's not consistent, and I wouldn't say later versions are that much more so.

So trying to make some characters from one version shoehorn into another in a published product is likely not going to work without some formula that deals with these issues, and IMO is not worth it for the publisher.

I would counsel ignoring all previous material, design characters specifically to Cepheus General or whatever version, and not try and match previous published materials based on other versions.

 

[ShawnDriscoll]

Not from a game balance standing between two characters made using the same game system

They are two different games.

In LBB Pilot and Ship's Boat are two distinct and separate skills which do not overlap. To pilot everything you need to receive TWO Skill Picks. In MgT1e, Pilot is a Cascade, but Level 0 allows you to pilot all spacecraft and starships, so you only need ONE pick of Pilot to fly everything. In both cases that is what is needed to avoid penalties for not having the appropriate skill.

Some would argue that having a skill 0 is a penalty. Some would argue that having no skill is not a penalty.

As, a Referee, you can fiat however you like, but RAW characters in CT APPEAR weaker because there are generally less "words" in the character's list of skills and levels.

There is much more to a Classic Traveller than just the 5 or 6 (or even 3 skills they might have). The game is still played for a reason.

If by attributes you mean characteristics (Str Dex End etc)

Classic Traveller uses attributes, which work differently than how Characteristics work in Mongoose Traveller.

 

[GrayPennell]

I haven't been around for a bit but I ll have to say that in CT skills play a far more important than in modern Traveller games. First, it strongly infers skills are needed for checks. Second, each skill defines its use and Saving Throws for success. While in modern games there is a default task target numbers. Second, most have negative modifiers for no or 0 skills when attempting tasks so you don't even need skills. This makes attributes the more important part of the equation. I am not going to get into which one is better just pointing out that the Task system really goes a long way to defining the values of skills and attributes.

 

[mike wightman]

One of these days I am going to email MWM and ask his permission to post on this board the guide to dice rolling that was in The Traveller Adventure (I already have it as a word document).

The dice throws in the skills section of CT are exemplars of the much greater utility of the CT dice throw system, as explained explicitly in The Traveller Adventure.

 

[flykiller]

the much greater utility of the CT dice throw system

... there was a system to it? seemed like each skill was its own particular system with its own particular modifiers. for example iirc pilot 3/5 enabled +1/+2 to agility, vacc suit skill was +4 per level (which even at skill level 2 could still result in failure in an unusual task), gun skill was a straight-up as-is modifier, having no skill might result in a -1 or -2 or -4 to a task attempt, etc.

 

[mike wightman]

The referee is free to assign any value to the skill DM they see fit depending on the situation.

In some situations you may decide engineering is worth a DM of +2 per level of skill, in other situations it may be worth +1 or even +4 - the referee decides.

Think of the examples in the LBB:1 skill section as just that, examples rather than tablets of stone.

It is explained much better in The Traveller Adventure.

 

[flykiller]

The referee is free to assign any value to the skill DM they see fit depending on the situation.

seems more of an attitude than a system. while ad-hoc situations and decisions of course play a role, a player should have some understanding of his character's skills and what the character can do, rather than wait for the referee to make regular off-the-cuff rulings on the spur of the moment.