Reading thoughts in different languages

[McPerth]

While reading this thread, I was about to answer that they'll have some problems about Reading my mind because I don't use to think in English, and it came to my mind the question about if this would be a problem.

What do you think about, it's language a barrier for psionic thought Reading or sending?

 

[HG_B]

While reading this thread, I was about to answer that they'll have some problems about Reading my mind because I don't use to think in English, and it came to my mind the question about if this would be a problem.

What do you think about, it's language a barrier for psionic thought Reading or sending?

No problem. 1st, you think in concepts that you translate into a language. (even if you aren't conscious of it) If you were never taught a language you would still be able to "think" about an apple (as you understand it). Language is a layer above conceptualization. The lower layer is always there and transcends language.

 

[McPerth]

No problem. 1st, you think in concepts that you translate into a language. (even if you aren't conscious of it) If you were never taught a language you would still be able to "think" about an apple (as you understand it). Language is a layer above conceptualization. The lower layer is always there and transcends language.

You didn't gave me time even to post the poll....

Even so, I've read that the language defines (at least partially) the thought structure, due to phrase order, vocabulary in your language (as Eskimos having many words for diferent perceptions of snow), different suble changes, etc...

That's why I added the options of same linguistic family and similar gramar to the poll.

 

[HG_B]

You didn't gave me time even to post the poll....

Even so, I've read that the language defines (at least partially) the thought structure, due to phrase order, vocabulary in your language (as Eskimos having many words for diferent perceptions of snow), different suble changes, etc...

That's why I added the options of same linguistic family and similar gramar to the poll.

It defines the gymnastics of it (what one does to make the language fit the thought). I have a friend who works in this field at UC Berkley. He has been working with a device that can ID what object you are thinking about. It works regardless of the language used by the person.

 

[thalassogen]

My (surface) thoughts are language-dependent (whether German, English, French, Spanish or Latin or whatever). I guess that the more conscious a thought is the more language-dependent it is. Most of the time I am not actively trying to think through a topic so I chose "similar grammar".

 

[McPerth]

It defines the gymnastics of it (what one does to make the language fit the thought). I have a friend who works in this field at UC Berkley. He has been working with a device that can ID what object you are thinking about. It works regardless of the language used by the person.

I guess this is with the collaboration of the person tested, not against his will.

And, just to be clear, I'm thinking here more about reading surface thoughts than about probe, where the reading is more in deepth and more integrated than just random thoughts.

 

[Spinward Scout]

TNE covered this a little: "it is always easier to perceive the mental patterns of a mind that comes from the same evolutionary origin." And that there are levels of alien-ness - a non-intelligent animal, a being from a separate evolutionary path, or a being with a very alien evolution. And you would lose stages of success the farther away from your own evolutionary path the mind you were trying to read was.

So language isn't really the barrier.

 

[HG_B]

I guess this is with the collaboration of the person tested, not against his will.

And, just to be clear, I'm thinking here more about Reading surface thoughts thatn a bout probe, where the Reading is more in deepth and more integrated thatn just random thoughts.

I could be used either way. Doesn't matter whether or not the person wants to cooperate. And, this IS surface thoughts that the device is reading..

 

[BytePro]

While reading this thread, I was about to answer that they'll have some problems about Reading my mind because I don't use to think in English, and it came to my mind the question about if this would be a problem.

Ah - then the mental suggestion worked, despite our lack of common language for thought... :devil:

[Thought I'd give you something else to chew on - using the conventional quaint technology prevalent today!]

 

[McPerth]

TNE covered this a little: "it is always easier to perceive the mental patterns of a mind that comes from the same evolutionary origin." And that there are levels of alien-ness - a non-intelligent animal, a being from a separate evolutionary path, or a being with a very alien evolution. And you would lose stages of success the farther away from your own evolutionary path the mind you were trying to read was.

So language isn't really the barrier.

Also IIRC the Droyne Alien Module (CT) said that you need to spend double psionic points to affect alien minds.

 

[CosmicGamer]

Can't vote because I say that like most things, it's variable.

Your thinking about the time you hit a home run vs you are thinking about a famous quote from Shakespeare. One might be more like an image you receive psionicly while the other may more closely resemble language.

How about thinking about a song and singing it in your head? What are all the things that actually run through your mind? The psionic might receive thoughts of what the singer looks like, images from a music video, a general idea of what the song is about, but would they understand all the words if they don't know the language?

I'd think psionic mind reading is kinda like learning a language. You might not understand new words/thoughts until it is explained to you.

Visual: Someone is eating something you don't recognize.
"What is that?"
"It's a kiwi."
"Oh, I heard of those. So that's what they look like, I never saw one before."
In this case, even when you know the language you still might not recognize something.

Language: Someone says Kiwi in a language you don't know.
"What did you say?"
"Kiwi" they now say in a recognizable language
"oh, the flightless bird from New Zealand"
"No, not the bird. It's a fruit."

Errors are always possible with psionics too.

 

[samuelvss]

I'm with CosmicGamer on this one:

Some thoughts are linguistic, or have linguistic content. If it's time for bed, I rarely say that to myself. It is concept or series of concepts that I will typically not vocalize in my head.

If I want a .4kg Bomb Burrito, I am going to thing about the flavor, and how much I've had to eat, and that I'm pretty hungry anyway.

If I am rehearsing or remembering a speech, I may well "play it in my head."

I have a not of visual images, and visual images married to ideas, as thoughts. Some thoughts are purely ideas. Some are mostly verbal, but I'd say these are the distinct minority.

As to the verbal content, since much of it is fragmentary, I'd say that it would be harder to interpret that than the spoken word, in a foreign language; reading a foreign picture book, that's also scratch and sniff would a dubious analogy, but none better presents itself.

Obviously, a great deal of the social, emotive, and conceptual content would not translate well across species, but partial success with great effort could be possible.

 

[rancke]

I'd say that having to know the language sounds most logical, but what it really boils down to is the plot effect you want for your book/game.


Hans

 

[Vladika]

I'd say that having to know the language sounds most logical, but what it really boils down to is the plot effect you want for your book/game.

Hans

This might be a good question for you Hans. Do you think in Danish, or English? Also, I'd assume you have some working knowledge of a few other European languages? Do you think in a particular language or any or all? Which is easiest to think in?

I know a few Doctors here in America that have English as a second language. One is of Russian origin and the other Polish. Both say they primarily think in their native tongue, though with their medical training done in English, they use quite a few "thought words" from there too.

I'm back to using just my native English having forgotten almost all German and Russian for lack of use.

While in the army I could think in German (Had to work at it), though not Russian. My Russian was learned from the German perspective and that made translations a bit different than those other members who learned Russian from an English linguistics and American culture bias.

I found that Germans are much better at understanding Russians than Americans, from the culture to linguistics.

Your thoughts?

Disclaimer: This was simply an example from my life experience, regarding the current topic, and in no way intended to be an endorsement or detraction for any group, culture or national origin, named or unnamed.

 

[rancke]

This might be a good question for you Hans. Do you think in Danish, or English? Also, I'd assume you have some working knowledge of a few other European languages? Do you think in a particular language or any or all? Which is easiest to think in?

I can think in both with equal ease. As for other languages, sadly no. My high school French is sufficient to read an Asterix album, but not a Maigret book (I was told that the language in Maigret was quite easy, but couldn't manage it). As for German, I once found out that I couldn't even speak in gestures to a German train conductor; brain just refused to cooperate.


Hans

 

[Fritz_Brown]

I could be used either way.

Considering the topic, that's a very funny typo. :rofl:

reading a foreign picture book, that's also scratch and sniff would a dubious analogy, but none better presents itself.

A scratch-n-sniff brain? o:

I tend to agree with CosmicGamer - it's greatly dependent on whether it is a language-oriented subject. And, of course, Hans nails it, too: how do you want it to influence your plot/story?

I think aliens will be more difficult the less human-in-a-rubber-suit they are. For a great set of truly alien thought-processes check out CJ Cherryh's books in the Chanur series and the Foreigner series, as well as Cuckoo's Egg.

 

[HG_B]

Considering the topic, that's a very funny typo. :rofl:

lol!

 

[rich4421972]

I think it would be interesting (in the sense of a game session) to know if the psionic abilities as they relate to galanglic, vilani or vargyr. TL7 Earth is not as monolithic as the one modeled in the various milieux of traveller. In TNE, there could be be a much more challenging obstacle presented by "primitive" minds as compared to those spearheading the Dawn League/RCES explorations. At least that's my thought as a non-linguist. Oral traditions would, I presume, be more prevalent in the Wilds and Old expanses than in the Regency and the Hive Federation.

Also, how could psionic power be trained and developed absent a Hiver technical academy or a psionics institute?

I think these are ideas that would be fun to consider.

 

[Shonner]

You will get images and/or film clips (some with audio, some in color) when reading someone's mind. The audio will be in the language it was stored in.

You can use mind control to translate what is being read, if the mind being read knows the language you want to translate to. Otherwise, you have to do the translating yourself as usual.

 

[Murphy]

People think differently. When thinking about a person, someone would remember their name as written on an ID, yet someone else would imagine a face, or even their clothing, or voice.

Most visual-oriented people would imagine a numerical passcode as written, but there are audials who might instead pronounce it in their thoughts, and the mind reader might not know what the words mean.

Although to read that in the first place, I should first get them to think about it, for example, by saying "do not think about the passcode" - and I'd need to know how to say that.

I doubt anyone really connects a "7" in a passcode or phone number with the concept of "seven". In fact, the word "seven" makes me think of a certain nemesis from Mongoose's published campaign, instead of a number, because I do not use it in everyday life, I use "семь", in Russian.

I guess it depends on how thoroughly mind-reading works. If it is able to catch all leading thoughts and the stream of after-following ones instead of just fishing a few from the scanned mind... yeah, language would not be a barrier, at least, not a complete barrier.