mike wightman
SOC-14 10K
Has anyone ever toyed with the idea that Lucan wasn't a mustache twirling pantomime villain, but was a legitimate heir and eventually won the rebellion?
Rebellion Redux
- Thread starter BwapTED
- Start date
epicenter00
SOC-13
Then he wouldn't be Lucan, he'd be someone else.
Okay, smart@ss mode off.
IMTU, Lucan did kill his older brother. He actually did it for the good of the Imperium - IMTU Varian was an egotistical sociopath, the kind of guy who hung around with a group of his cronies partying all the time. However, the guy was good looking, with that intense aura of mystery and danger that sociopaths often have that's like catnip for many women. On the day of the assassination, the brothers were indeed arguing because Lucan's girlfriend (Lila I think her name was) was leaving him for Varian. This wasn't the first time it happened and these girls had a distressing habit of "disappearing" once Varian was bored with them. Lucan had never spoken up about it (or really looked into it because he was afraid he knew what had happened to them) because despite everything, the guy was his brother. Yes, Lucan had an awful reputation as being a brat, but that was because Varian, in the way many sociopaths are could lie without triggering a lie detector test, he cheated, did things and masterfully implied the blame was Lucan's (then of course played the part of the gracious "older" brother to "vouch" for Lucan in front of others to look like the shining prince).
When they heard about the assassination of the entire imperial family, Lucan pretty quickly figured out what that meant, only to look over at his brother to realize Varian had realized it even earlier. Varian had this particular greedy, feral gleam in his eye and whispered to himself, "You know, traitors need to be punished. I think Dlan on should be killed for this. And you know, Illeish too, for not noticing it. You know, in the old way, I'll send in the Imperial Guard and have them do it by hand. Nobody will ever dare do anything like this again, not like they did to Uncle Strephon, the weakling. Though maybe not Isis..."
Lucan was realizing with horror what was about to happen to the Imperium under Varian, when Windhook and the others came in and the assassin revealed himself. Varian managed to shoot the guard down with his personal sidearm. Varian was buttering up Windhook, promising him promotions and so on. Windhook was the only survivor besides the two brothers and Varian's girlfriend.
That's when Lucan picked up the SMG and shot Varian. Then he realized that neither Lila or Windhook could be trusted with this knowledge, so he killed Lila, but Windhook did indeed get away.
Lucan started out trying to be pretty reasonable and tried pretty hard to be a good Emperor. The reason for his private coronation was that he knew that Dulinor had fled to his seat of power in Illiesh - the Imperium could ill-afford to waste time with the proper grand coronations and so on. He originally intended to bring a swift victory to the war, then find a worthy successor (he'd tagged Margaret, actually) then abdicate and admit his crimes and face justice. However, when the Moot told him that was illegal and that the Moot had to "study" the legality of what Dulinor had done and that they'd send envoys as a "fact finding mission" to Dulinor's faction to see what was going on, Lucan dissolved the Moot for a year as he had to concentrate on the war.
He initially started out listening to his admirals and other policy types. However, when he listed to these high officers and ministers, they kept losing. Every week, he'd see these reports of fleets getting wiped out, rolls of thousands of names of the dead. Worse yet, so many kept defecting to Dulinor or quietly leaving their posts to return to their home territories instead of uniting in what was the Imperium's darkest hours.
It was only once the war ground into its fifth year, parts of the Imperium kept breaking away, Dulinor kept winning, and so on that Lucan really started sacking the incompetents en masse (which he was seeing everywhere now) to bring in the "results oriented" commanders.
So IMTU, Lucan doesn't start as a twitchy villain type. But he does end as one, growing paranoid and extremist by events as well as the guilt of killing in cold blood to ensure the future of the Imperium (that it was falling apart despite his best efforts made things even worse - he had killed in cold blood for no reason).
That there was a fifth column organization devoted to "justice" called the Brothers of Varian brought Lucan to privately laugh until he cried.
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Major B
SOC-14 1K
Mike, thanks for the correction and the link.
I found it on Don's web page and forgot it was Bill's work.
Don was scrupulous about giving credit where it belonged and I should have been the same.
In one hypothetical variant I had in mind, called Sol Invictus, the Solomani steamrolled across the Imperial border once Imperial presence was greatly weakened by the Civil War. They liberated Terra within a few months and eventually re-captured the old Solomani Sphere. They did stop a bit further Coreward as their forces began to be spread thin. Solomani occupation of Imperial worlds varied with the officer in charge of the given planet, from business as usual to war crimes. With forces spread thin, the Party and Solsec had a hard time maintaining uniformity of local policy.
The open question is how the Aslan would react to Solomani naval assets being reassigned from the Dark Nebula border to the Coreward front...
That's been addressed in canon - IIRC, no official reaction; unofficially, Ihaiti are "invited" to take over the spinward worlds the Confederation "liberates" from the 3I but outside the Solomani Sphere.
So, a Solomani-Aslan treaty... I like that.
That could work. The road to hell is paved with good intentions and all that. This sort of explanation also makes Lucan less of a car4toonish villain. The whole question of how he maintained the legitimacy to lead the remnants of the 3I was something we often chewed over.
This is a straightforward Occam's Razor-ish solution. War is an abysmal occurrence so it makes sense that parties not consumed by the insanity of a civil war would try to limit the risk of conflict.
I think the problem with the Rebellion was that it strained credulity, too many implausible things happened.
Dulinor manages to take down the entire Imperial family and escapes.
Varian turns up dead under questionable circumstances.
The Vargr are easily united by a media construct when no one in their history could ever come close to doing the same thing.
Numerous long loyal sectors declare independence because they don't trust Lucan. Mainly because of how he (mis)handled the impossible Vargr.
And perhaps biggest of all, out of nowhere the Imperium is so fragile that it flies apart. Even though it survived a period when Imperial assassination was not at all unusual.
Dulinor manages to take down the entire Imperial family and escapes.
Varian turns up dead under questionable circumstances.
The Vargr are easily united by a media construct when no one in their history could ever come close to doing the same thing.
Numerous long loyal sectors declare independence because they don't trust Lucan. Mainly because of how he (mis)handled the impossible Vargr.
And perhaps biggest of all, out of nowhere the Imperium is so fragile that it flies apart. Even though it survived a period when Imperial assassination was not at all unusual.
It does seem implausible when you put it all that way.
Maybe...
Dulinor assassinates Strephon and Iolanthe but is himself killed in the throne room.
Ciceneia Iphegenia escapes the assassination attempt, wounded but alive.
Dulinor's men are all killed or captured.
Now it's Isis Alethian leading the Second Iliesh Revolt against her former friend, Ciencia.
The Iliesh rebels are in a bad position without outside help. So Isis allies with the Solomani Confederation and various Aslan ihaetai.
The Zhodani see what's going on and then decide to renew pressure on the Imperium along their border...
NOTE Forgive my typos. A lot of made-up words in this post.
This.
I'll spot the writers 3 out of any given 5 impossibilities. The bottom line was, the Entire Third Imperium got trashed in order to provide opportunities for PC fun, and then the line didn't get much support early on.
Bad analogy - if I want to go surfing, I don't need to sink Atlantis, just a few nice waves off the beach are enough. There were good products in the line, but they weren't sufficient payoff for the wholesale table-flip that was the basis of the Rebellion.
Major B
SOC-14 1K
That is an interesting alternate timeline but what I've read about Dulinor has me thinking that he would never ally with the Solomani or Aslan. His goal was to make the Imperium better. It is easy to forget that given his betrayal but in his mind he was the only one who could fix what needed fixing so he had to get Strephon out of the way.
Given that, another alternate timeline might go like this:
Dulinor's first act goes as we know. He flees back to his base of power, Lucan takes power. Before Lucan can redirect the fleets, or maybe just after the messages go out, Dulinor realizes that he cannot win the throne and further fighting will only waste lives and damage the Imperium he hoped to lead. He surrenders, offering himself in the hope of sparing his home worlds a devastating war.
Lucan accepts the surrender, summarily executes Dulinor, and then sets the fleet on a punishment expedition into Ilelish to hunt down other conspirators and wreak vengeance. This plus the fleet movements precipitate his dispute with the Moot and he dissolves the body in retaliation.
Internal dissent rises. External actors see an opportunity.
The Vargr, un-united in a large but uncoordinated force, begin raiding along the border. A zone about 3-5 parsecs deep along much of the frontier becomes a war zone. Forces are re-positioned to contain the threat.
Some Aslan see an opportunity and, again uncoordinated, they probe the frontier in Trojan Reach and Reaver's Deep. These too are contained.
The Zhodani do nothing for reasons we will learn later, but the Solomani believe it is time to strike and strike in force. Huge battles erupt along the Rim and all available forces rush to contain this threat because it is the only real existential threat compared to the others. Imperial losses are serious. Many worlds are lost. Terra is threatened but the line holds 5-6 parsecs away.
The Solomani are held but the Imperials are so weakened that they lack the resources to counterattack. Lucan has consistently alienated the nobles, his military commanders, and the bureaucracy. Now the internal rebellion becomes serious. Either Strephon re-emerges or another potential adversary with a tenuous claim but the backing of the Moot-in-Exile gathers enough of the fleet together and defeats Lucan's home guard around the capital.
What ensues are decades spent restoring the empire, dealing with other opportunistic neighbors, preparing for the threat that distracted the Zhodani, and more. The empire does not fall - there will not be another long night - but control in most places is far less firm than it was before Dulinor's treachery. There are still co-conspirators of Dulinor that must be found and put on trial. There are war criminals that were loyal to Lucan who must be brought to justice. In the Rim, Solomani Agents. Along the Extents, Vargr. Commerce was severely impacted by raiders in every war zone so there are many opportunities for profit for those who are willing to take risks.
I think that might be more plausible and creates a fun setting for players to pursue whatever they want.
I like your alternate timeline idea. Major B
Minor niggle concerning mine--
Dulinor doesn't ally with the Solomani and Aslan. He's already dead at that point, killed in the Imperial Palace.
His daughter and heir, Isis, makes the pact.
Her ideas and personality are somewhat different.
Minor niggle concerning mine--
Dulinor doesn't ally with the Solomani and Aslan. He's already dead at that point, killed in the Imperial Palace.
His daughter and heir, Isis, makes the pact.
Her ideas and personality are somewhat different.
epicenter00
SOC-13
To address the original thread question here:
The Solomani front seems particularly bad. I don't see how the Solomani would do so badly against the Imperium given the circumstances.
I didn't really mind the Vargr uniting behind a virtual populist rabblerouser; he's more like a meme than anything else. That these pirates can somehow overrun entire parts of the Imperium stretches the bounds of credulity.
I fail to see how the Ihatei and Vargr cause Norris so many problems; he has sufficient fleets in the core of the Domain to provide a deterrent to the Zhodani. Given the Zhodani aren't doing much, the Ihatei and Vargr should be easily handled by these fleets.
What I liked quite a bit was the idea that the Imperium had been at peace for too long without a significant external danger or anything else to give the Imperium a sense of unity; instead the Imperium had become navel-gazing and started concentrating on how everyone in the Imperium was different rather than concentrating on how everyone was alike; this regionalism was brought to the fore by the Rebellion.
This is honestly the worst part of the Rebellion. It's beyond idiotic that Dulinor assassinates the Emperor ... then flees back to Illiesh. The 3I isn't Rome, but Capital still is the most "important" world in the 3I. The Right of Assassination is basically the "manly man" method of getting the throne - it's a military coup d'etat with a thin varnish applied. You lose all of your "man points" if you assassinate the previous leader then have to slink off to the bushes.
If Dulinor can't hold Capital, he as might as well fall on his own sword. He's not going to prepare some escape plan. He's going to commit everything and succeed or die. If he's willing to kill Strephon, a friend of his, and Strephon's wife and daughter, he would move with some plan and assurance he could hold Capital. He's not thinking of some lame "oh well if this doesn't work..." plan.
The Rebellion would have been a lot better if Dulinor assassinated the Imperial family on Capital and takes it and holds it for the rest of Rebellion. He justifies his actions citing Right by Assassination. However, the Imperium's changed; Right by Assassination is considered by many as a bygone relic of a more savage age and is as ridiculous as stoning for adultery. However, one rule hasn't changed: Might makes right, so while people might grumble and be wary, they're not going to go against Dulinor without something to lead them to believe they can remove him from power. The Moot tries; a nobles led by Margaret call into question the legality of Dulinor's methods. Dulinor has the Capital police storm the Moot and arrest the ringleaders (he can't use the Household Cavalry - using a military unit would give the Moot too much legitimacy, so he has the police do it, showing they're just criminals).
Then, Dulinor starts announcing his intention to start changing all kinds of things as part of his new beginning. He shifts the Imperial heraldry from the Sunburst to the Galaxy. He announces large increases in the size and funding of the of the Imperial bureaucracy so that the Imperium can better address the welfare of its citizens (as well as a reduction in the power of nobles). Finally, he wants to introduce a replacement for the Moot - an elected (however indirectly) body of representatives as an advisory body to the Emperor. All of this change further alienates a large amount of the Imperium's population. So the Imperium seemingly accepts Dulinor, but large portions of the population are waiting for an alternative -- any alternative.
Lucan, who was near Vland at the time of the assassination manages to evade his assassin (though Varian is killed), and Vland's authorities quickly take him into custody for his own protection. Then Lucan moves to become the leader of an opposing army by crowning himself Emperor. Lucan has the support of the Domains of Vland, Antares, and Gateway.
Dulinor meanwhile has a good grip on Sylea and Ililesh. He has a much weaker grip on Sol, while Gateway has a lot of sympathizers. While Lucan seems to have the advantage, in reality, Sylea is the oldest and richest domain - containing the largest portion of the Imperium's wealth and industry. Ililesh is not far behind. Only Vland equals them. Antares, Gateway, Deneb, and Sol simply don't have the resources. In addition, while Dulinor is somewhat outflanked, his enemies are all individually pretty weak and isolated; only Vland and Antares can really help each other - any concentrated attack by Dulinor against Gateway see it collapse but in the meanwhile, the others can make significant inroads. Deneb is simply too far away but can send support to Vland.
Complicating the matter, many of the worlds of the Imperium are not solid in their support of the side they're a part of; this is most marked in Sol, where a large number of former Solomani worlds find the reduction of power of the nobles and a more representational government to be very appealing and so sympathize with Dulinor. Archduke Adair and the nobles in charge of Sol and the field armies from other parts of the Imperium stationed in Sol are obviously terrified of this, so have strong Lucan leanings. Dulinor needs Sol's fleets to fight Lucan, but he knows the moment he pulls too many fleets out, the Solomani are going to invade. Lucan's side isn't without issues either: While Norris initially sends quite a few fleets to help Lucan, eventually as the fleets being sent start to turn the tide against the Dulinor, the Zhodani tell Norris if he sends any more fleets, they'll invade (they want the war to be a grindy stalemate that splits the Imperium after all).
The Solomani front seems particularly bad. I don't see how the Solomani would do so badly against the Imperium given the circumstances.
I didn't really mind the Vargr uniting behind a virtual populist rabblerouser; he's more like a meme than anything else. That these pirates can somehow overrun entire parts of the Imperium stretches the bounds of credulity.
I fail to see how the Ihatei and Vargr cause Norris so many problems; he has sufficient fleets in the core of the Domain to provide a deterrent to the Zhodani. Given the Zhodani aren't doing much, the Ihatei and Vargr should be easily handled by these fleets.
What I liked quite a bit was the idea that the Imperium had been at peace for too long without a significant external danger or anything else to give the Imperium a sense of unity; instead the Imperium had become navel-gazing and started concentrating on how everyone in the Imperium was different rather than concentrating on how everyone was alike; this regionalism was brought to the fore by the Rebellion.
This is honestly the worst part of the Rebellion. It's beyond idiotic that Dulinor assassinates the Emperor ... then flees back to Illiesh. The 3I isn't Rome, but Capital still is the most "important" world in the 3I. The Right of Assassination is basically the "manly man" method of getting the throne - it's a military coup d'etat with a thin varnish applied. You lose all of your "man points" if you assassinate the previous leader then have to slink off to the bushes.
If Dulinor can't hold Capital, he as might as well fall on his own sword. He's not going to prepare some escape plan. He's going to commit everything and succeed or die. If he's willing to kill Strephon, a friend of his, and Strephon's wife and daughter, he would move with some plan and assurance he could hold Capital. He's not thinking of some lame "oh well if this doesn't work..." plan.
The Rebellion would have been a lot better if Dulinor assassinated the Imperial family on Capital and takes it and holds it for the rest of Rebellion. He justifies his actions citing Right by Assassination. However, the Imperium's changed; Right by Assassination is considered by many as a bygone relic of a more savage age and is as ridiculous as stoning for adultery. However, one rule hasn't changed: Might makes right, so while people might grumble and be wary, they're not going to go against Dulinor without something to lead them to believe they can remove him from power. The Moot tries; a nobles led by Margaret call into question the legality of Dulinor's methods. Dulinor has the Capital police storm the Moot and arrest the ringleaders (he can't use the Household Cavalry - using a military unit would give the Moot too much legitimacy, so he has the police do it, showing they're just criminals).
Then, Dulinor starts announcing his intention to start changing all kinds of things as part of his new beginning. He shifts the Imperial heraldry from the Sunburst to the Galaxy. He announces large increases in the size and funding of the of the Imperial bureaucracy so that the Imperium can better address the welfare of its citizens (as well as a reduction in the power of nobles). Finally, he wants to introduce a replacement for the Moot - an elected (however indirectly) body of representatives as an advisory body to the Emperor. All of this change further alienates a large amount of the Imperium's population. So the Imperium seemingly accepts Dulinor, but large portions of the population are waiting for an alternative -- any alternative.
Lucan, who was near Vland at the time of the assassination manages to evade his assassin (though Varian is killed), and Vland's authorities quickly take him into custody for his own protection. Then Lucan moves to become the leader of an opposing army by crowning himself Emperor. Lucan has the support of the Domains of Vland, Antares, and Gateway.
Dulinor meanwhile has a good grip on Sylea and Ililesh. He has a much weaker grip on Sol, while Gateway has a lot of sympathizers. While Lucan seems to have the advantage, in reality, Sylea is the oldest and richest domain - containing the largest portion of the Imperium's wealth and industry. Ililesh is not far behind. Only Vland equals them. Antares, Gateway, Deneb, and Sol simply don't have the resources. In addition, while Dulinor is somewhat outflanked, his enemies are all individually pretty weak and isolated; only Vland and Antares can really help each other - any concentrated attack by Dulinor against Gateway see it collapse but in the meanwhile, the others can make significant inroads. Deneb is simply too far away but can send support to Vland.
Complicating the matter, many of the worlds of the Imperium are not solid in their support of the side they're a part of; this is most marked in Sol, where a large number of former Solomani worlds find the reduction of power of the nobles and a more representational government to be very appealing and so sympathize with Dulinor. Archduke Adair and the nobles in charge of Sol and the field armies from other parts of the Imperium stationed in Sol are obviously terrified of this, so have strong Lucan leanings. Dulinor needs Sol's fleets to fight Lucan, but he knows the moment he pulls too many fleets out, the Solomani are going to invade. Lucan's side isn't without issues either: While Norris initially sends quite a few fleets to help Lucan, eventually as the fleets being sent start to turn the tide against the Dulinor, the Zhodani tell Norris if he sends any more fleets, they'll invade (they want the war to be a grindy stalemate that splits the Imperium after all).
Major B
SOC-14 1K
Roger doc. I was tracking that but failed to mention it when ideas started flowing. My thought was that the daughter would seek to fulfill her father's intent but I am not familiar with what has been written about the second generation well enough to speak with any authority.
I'll give in to the niggle because it's pertinent. A desperate person may well abandon any pretense or principle when push comes to shove. We always hope that our principles will rise above but they don't always for everyone.
I could quibble a bit about whether the Solomani would be trusting enough to enter into the bargain but the idea is what I would class as unlikely though possible and a lot of history covers similarly unlikely events.
Mike
The Solomani Confederation would, I'd say, be willing to strike a deal with the rebels and the Aslan if it means a chance to reclaim Terra along with other Solomani Rim worlds occupied by the Imperium.
They'll be hitting different sectors and worlds, coming from different directions.
There would be a debate between the pragmatists and the ideologues, natch.
They'll be hitting different sectors and worlds, coming from different directions.
There would be a debate between the pragmatists and the ideologues, natch.
Condottiere
SOC-14 5K
The Sphere will be Whole Again!
The Confederation has been planning and preparing for the past century to liberate their Occupied Territories, and a large scale disturbance in the Imperium would be seen as an opportune time to strike.
A general civil war would make it imperative.
As regards to the plausibility of the Vargr using singing to give their troops a sense of unity:
https://youtu.be/lCVc1X0WI7s?t=780
The Confederation has been planning and preparing for the past century to liberate their Occupied Territories, and a large scale disturbance in the Imperium would be seen as an opportune time to strike.
A general civil war would make it imperative.
As regards to the plausibility of the Vargr using singing to give their troops a sense of unity:
https://youtu.be/lCVc1X0WI7s?t=780
Blocked.
But I looked it up on another vid.
Good stuff! I don't believe that I've ever seen that movie.
I liked Megatraveller as a whole because of the good books that supported it, but I never used the rebellion setting.
The whole thing was sterile, passionless, and read like the setup to a wargame. In one introductory paragraph, the Imperial nobility went from being the honorable officials who keep the Imperium going to petty ambitious people who wanted to carve up the Imperium and restribute the wealth.
No justification, no nothing, just 'this is how it is'.
The whole assassination plot was ludicrous. The arms room sergeant giving the emperor's guard fake ammo, Dulinor sending one bungling assassin against the princes who just breezes through security, Dulinor's forces totally penetrating Capitol's computer systems, it all just happens with no explanation or justification.
It's inconceivable that the admiralty, the fleet admirals, the marine generals, the INI, the MOJ, the other archdukes and the sector dukes would just roll over after Dulinor blew away the Imperial family. Dulinor would never be safe outside of Ielish again. Seriously, would Archduke Norris just roll over after such an egregious act of murder and treason?
But, for some reason Dulinor thought he could get away with it.
So, Lucan is the rightful heir, but for some reason the Moot thinks he's moving too fast. Why? The allegations against Lucan were never proven, there's bloody treason afoot, and whole sectors are in rebellion. You'd think they'd unite to see the traitor brought to justice and worry about Lucan later.
Nope.
The majority of Imperial leadership betrayed their new emperor in his hour of need. Nobles sat on their hands. Fleet admirals betrayed their oaths. Imperial soldiers and spacemen fired on their comrades and bombed Imperial planets.
Everyone made the worst decisions they possibly could.
If Imperial nobles and military commanders just kept their oaths, they would've pulverized Dulinor who had what, 2 sectors? Then they would have pushed the solomani back across the border before heading back coreward and slapping the Vargr so hard their muzzles would spin around the backs of their heads.
The rebellion couldn't have worked without everyone screwing up.
Lucan's admiralty couldn't come up with a plan to attack Dulinor without stripping the frontiers until they were defenseless. Are they incompetent?
Margaret, Brzk, Vland, Daibei, and even Norris betrayed the Imperium for threadbare reasons, when united they could've crushed Dulinor and compelled Lucan to abdicate. Did no one stop for a second and think it through?
If Lucan couldn't even take on Dulinor even with stripping the frontier fleets, the Solomani should've conquered all their lost territory in short order, but for some reason they weren't allowed to, even with 5 united sectors and battle ready fleets against 3 Imperial sectors in disarray. The Solomani could effectively defeat the divided Imperial forces in detail.
It just didn't make sense.
This unbelievable chain of bad decisions was necessary to create a futile unwinnable stalemate of a war for me to do nail missions in while my much loved 3I setting burned to the ground.
Knightfall and Hard Times brought some feeling and human depth to the setting, but then virus brought it all to an end.
EDIT:
There was no side to root for, no bright spot that a PC group could fight for. Norris was the favored faction, but he held the line for Deneb instead of saving the Imperium. The Solomani should have cleaned up, but they're the villains of the OTU. The Rebellion sourcebook calls them a 'laughingstock' and 'an ineffective joke'. They weren't allowed to win. The setting had been set to die, and there was nothing any group of plucky adventurers could do about it. Even after a great campaign of rebuilding interstellar trade, battling corsairs, doing humanitarian relief missions, and trying to get some war torn subsectors back on their feet, here comes virus. Great.
I know people can say well, in your TU you can do whatever you want, but the OTU is the OTU. It's the touchstone, the common frame of reference for all of us, and Rebellion/Hard Times smashed it.
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