Rebellion Redux

[mike wightman]

If you back to the early days of the 3I setting you will find everything that lead to the rebellion hidden away.

The first is the statement repeated in LBB4 and 5 that the Imperium is vast and can not be everywhere at once, so the frontier worlds get a lot of autonomy...

next there is the statement in S:3 SM that the Imperium is not as strong as it once was - i.e. it is in decline...

you have the way Imperial authorities, nobles, armed forces are portrayed in the early adventures, corrupt nobles, imprisonment without trial, kidnapping and enslavement of aliens from beyond the Imperium

and finally we get the briefest glimpse of a semi-dystopian existence of the masses of humanity on the core worlds in the Forbolen project.

Somehow the FFW made everyone start to see the Imperium as the good guys and all of this was conveniently forgotten - Norris the hero duke is the same guy that ordered the arrest and incarceration of the senator and then uses the sub-sector news to lay a false trail.

 

[Tiikeri]

I think I let my opinion of the Imperial nobility get shaped by later editions of Traveller instead of just by CT and MT, leading to that misperception.

Still, it was just a setup which required everyone to make bad decisions for the setting to work. The one clear choice was for everyone to pull together to defeat Dulinor and the rest of the aggressors, then worry about Lucan. But, that would've solved the problem and we would have had a 2nd Imperial Civil War and a 2nd Rim War instead of a Shattered Imperium.

 

[BwapTED]

EDIT:

There was no side to root for, no bright spot that a PC group could fight for. Norris was the favored faction, but he held the line for Deneb instead of saving the Imperium. The Solomani should have cleaned up, but they're the villains of the OTU. The Rebellion sourcebook calls them a 'laughingstock' and 'an ineffective joke'. They weren't allowed to win. The setting had been set to die, and there was nothing any group of plucky adventurers could do about it. Even after a great campaign of rebuilding interstellar trade, battling corsairs, doing humanitarian relief missions, and trying to get some war torn subsectors back on their feet, here comes virus. Great.

I know people can say well, in your TU you can do whatever you want, but the OTU is the OTU. It's the touchstone, the common frame of reference for all of us, and Rebellion/Hard Times smashed it.

Yeah, the Solomani do seem to have been stopped rather too easily, as others have noted.
I'd expect greater success.

Having read the AM-6 Solomani, I didn't get the impression the SC was a joke or a laughingstock.

RE player influence on big events:

I'm just fine with
PCs' impact being limited and small-scale, and the big background events will happen regardless.

That feels very realistic to me.

But what I wouldn't care for would be pre-plotted adventures in which the stakes seem huge but in actuality the PCs could just sit in the star-town bar and the outcome for everyone else would be just the same.
I have no idea if the published MT adventures are like that.

 

[Tiikeri]

Yeah, the Solomani do seem to have been stopped rather too easily, as others have noted.
I'd expect greater success.

Having read the AM-6 Solomani, I didn't get the impression the SC was a joke or a laughingstock.

No, they're not, but multiple authors treat them as if they are. Not because of their capabilities, but because the authors tagged them with the bad guy brush.

GT continued that dubious tradition, and GT did it to the Sword Worlders too until Hans set it straight in the book he wrote.

Some time ago I got out my GT materials and looked at all the alien races. Around 70% of them were brazenly xenophobic but only the Solomani were condemned for their anti-alien sentiment.

 

[BwapTED]

No, they're not, but multiple authors treat them as if they are. Not because of their capabilities, but because the authors tagged them with the bad guy brush.

GT continued that dubious tradition, and GT did it to the Sword Worlders too until Hans set it straight in the book he wrote.

Some time ago I got out my GT materials and looked at all the alien races. Around 70% of them were brazenly xenophobic but only the Solomani were condemned for their anti-alien sentiment.

In think you're right.


Hans (RIP) did the SW right in his book. Good stuff.

 

[BwapTED]

'Joke' bad guys have a place, I suppose.

I prefer the SC as a credible threat to its neighbors.

Not that I see the Solomani Confederation as only an Evil Empire. Back when I was still thinking of running the OTU, I was inclined to run a Solomani Confederation game on the rimward frontier.

 

[Tiikeri]

I'm not big on comedic anything, as I'm sure you've gathered by now.

IMTU I cap the Imperium at TL 13 or 14 and have the SolCon at TL 15. The population of the 3I is still largely Vilani and the political and economic culture focuses on conservatism and stability. The SolCon on the other hand never lost it's Solomani spirit of progress, and the threat of the Imperium looming to coreward motivates the SolCon to seek more and more advancements.

I don't depict the SolCon as an evil empire. I depict it as a polity with its own history, interests and goals. Something overlooked is that the sphere was just fine until Imperial aristocrats migrated there after the solomani movement was broken at court. IMTU these disgraced and disenfrachised Solomani-descended aristocrats took power in the sphere intending all along to secede from the Imperium. The Rim War would not have happened without this embittered contingent of Imperial aristocrats taking up residence in the sphere and using it for their vengeful ends. Rather than a war between the sphere and the Imperium, the Rim War was another civil war between two factions of Imperial aristocrats. As usual, the common people fought and died for the political machinations of their betters.

IMTU, another reason I keep the 3I a TL or two lower than the SolCon is that the 3I lost the high tech innovation centers in the Rim to the SolCon, which prohibits exports of dual use technological advancements.

 

[BwapTED]

I'm not big on comedic anything, as I'm sure you've gathered by now.

IMTU I cap the Imperium at TL 13 or 14 and have the SolCon at TL 15. The population of the 3I is still largely Vilani and the political and economic culture focuses on conservatism and stability. The SolCon on the other hand never lost its Solomani spirit of progress, and the threat of the Imperium looming to coreward motivates the SolCon to seek more and more advancements.

I don't depict the SolCon as an evil empire. I depict it as a polity with its own history, interests and goals. Something overlooked is that the sphere was just fine until Imperial aristocrats migrated there after the solomani movement was broken at court. IMTU these disgraced and disenfrachised Solomani-descended aristocrats took power in the sphere intending all along to secede from the Imperium. The Rim War would not have happened without this embittered contingent of Imperial aristocrats taking up residence in the sphere and using it for their vengeful ends. Rather than a war between the sphere and the Imperium, the Rim War was another civil war between two factions of Imperial aristocrats. As usual, the common people fought and died for the political machinations of their betters.

IMTU, another reason I keep the 3I a TL or two lower than the SolCon is that the 3I lost the high tech innovation centers in the Rim to the SolCon, which prohibits exports of dual use technological advancements.

I appreciate Bwap space pirates, so a dash of comedy works for me.

But I can do serious and sober, too.

I like the SolCon as presented in AM-6. You have the book?

 

[Tiikeri]

Yes, AM 6 is my go-to source for the Solomani.

It's Classic Traveller at its finest. Clear, concise, interesting, and useful. The information on the Solomani is presented judgement-free, the same way the K'Kree, those genocidial exterminators who stomp people to death to save ammo, are presented judgement-free.

Classic Traveller's judgement free quality is something I've always appreciated, compared to MT and GT. MT wasn't bad, except for the egregious example in DGP's Solomani and Aslan, in which the authors included the New Van Dootchen Estates, which served the SolCon government as reliable enforcers and conducted slave raids on other SolCon populations. How topical for the 80s... have another helping of casserole, there's plenty.

GT went full on with it's value judgement nonsense; IMO it was unprofessional. Traveller didn't change, but some authors injected their own biases into the new materials instead of adhering to the professional standards of Classic Traveller.

From the main GT book:

Sword Worlders: The immensely proud Sword Worlders expect to be
addressed as “Sir” or “Madame.” A powerful insult, when it can be gotten away with, is to omit the use of any honorific, especially with officials. Similarly, an easy way to ingratiate oneself with a Sword Worlder is to adopt an attitude of deference; even an extreme or satiric pose (“Most Esteemed, Most Highly Evolved Sir . . .”) will be mistaken by some Sword Worlders for sincerity.

From Behind the Claw:

Women in the Sword Worlds are expected to be passive and obedient to their male protectors, while men are bluff and decisive, brave and strongwilled. Imperials find the men bigoted, brainless and self-important, and rarely meet the women (I wonder if that's because the women have no interest in meeting snide condescending imperials).

Von Kreden’s death-ride is something of a heroic legend among the Sword Worlders, and has inspired a number of lesser, but similar, pointlessly violent gestures.



The Sword Worlders and the Solomani were generally described with a dismissive disparaging tone, as incompetents with moral flaws either aggravated or created for them. Good thing we Imperials have someone to feel superior to. Eat up, your casserole's getting cold.

 

[mike wightman]

Even the CT alien modules were written from an Imperial point of view, in a similar way to how the Library Data supplements were also from the Imperial perspective.

Read carefully, you will notice the Imperial bias in all of it.

I agree with you that later authors made a lot of the aliens caricatures of what had previously been written and definitely included their own personal bias.

The MT alien modules from DGP while being excellent do suffer from this - but wartime propaganda does tend to distort things...

 

[Tiikeri]

I thought the GT books were well done quality products, which made the injection of author personal bias even more glaring.

The part where the Imperium changed a flag to colorless because one alien race could only see in infrared or something was just ludicrous. I don't remember which book that's in.

 

[BwapTED]

I thought the GT books were well done quality products, which made the injection of author personal bias even more glaring.

The part where the Imperium changed a flag to colorless because one alien race could only see in infrared or something was just ludicrous. I don't remember which book that's in.

Ah, yes. That was a strange little note.

The Imperium is a clearly human polity with nonhuman minorities. It has always been majority human and always ruled by humans.

The best justification for the colorless flag thing would be that it was the whim of an eccentric emperor.

 

[BwapTED]

Yes, AM 6 is my go-to source for the Solomani.

It's Classic Traveller at its finest. Clear, concise, interesting, and useful. The information on the Solomani is presented judgement-free, the same way the K'Kree, those genocidial exterminators who stomp people to death to save ammo, are presented judgement-free.

Classic Traveller's judgement free quality is something I've always appreciated, compared to MT and GT. MT wasn't bad, except for the egregious example in DGP's Solomani and Aslan, in which the authors included the New Van Dootchen Estates, which served the SolCon government as reliable enforcers and conducted slave raids on other SolCon populations. How topical for the 80s... have another helping of casserole, there's plenty.

GT went full on with it's value judgement nonsense; IMO it was unprofessional. Traveller didn't change, but some authors injected their own biases into the new materials instead of adhering to the professional standards of Classic Traveller.

From the main GT book:

Sword Worlders: The immensely proud Sword Worlders expect to be
addressed as “Sir” or “Madame.” A powerful insult, when it can be gotten away with, is to omit the use of any honorific, especially with officials. Similarly, an easy way to ingratiate oneself with a Sword Worlder is to adopt an attitude of deference; even an extreme or satiric pose (“Most Esteemed, Most Highly Evolved Sir . . .”) will be mistaken by some Sword Worlders for sincerity.

From Behind the Claw:

Women in the Sword Worlds are expected to be passive and obedient to their male protectors, while men are bluff and decisive, brave and strongwilled. Imperials find the men bigoted, brainless and self-important, and rarely meet the women (I wonder if that's because the women have no interest in meeting snide condescending imperials).

Von Kreden’s death-ride is something of a heroic legend among the Sword Worlders, and has inspired a number of lesser, but similar, pointlessly violent gestures.



The Sword Worlders and the Solomani were generally described with a dismissive disparaging tone, as incompetents with moral flaws either aggravated or created for them. Good thing we Imperials have someone to feel superior to. Eat up, your casserole's getting cold.

I've always rather liked the Sword Worlders. I bought the JTAS in which they appear, just for that article.


I found that GT books presented a stable, strong Imperium ruled by honorable men and women who show regard for 'sophont rights.'
Though other takes were noted, at least in Nobles.

Not to derail, but did you see my alternate take on the New Dootchen Estates?

 

[Tiikeri]

IMO the GT Imperium/aristocracy comes off as a smug goody two shoes concerned with everybody's rights, with a vindictive mean streak a mile wide that it can't admit, so it has to make certain groups the morally bad 'other' to make itself feel better about harming and demeaning them.

We're not bad! We're good! We're nice, funny, and caring, and and and look at our colorless flag! It's hanging in every Brubek's! Our aristocrats don't even tell people what to do, they're just so cool that they can talk to everybody and reach agreements! All those snide insults? All those burned planets? All those radioactive bones? Wull, those people were bad! Bad, bad, bad! It's not our fault! It's their fault! They're so stupid and mean! They deserved it! Did you catch the Anton Wilson Peale show? Oh, it was so funnay! And the spiced hot dip veggie casserole was so awesome! Did you know K'Kree barf in their kids mouths? Wull, you're such a bigot because you eat honey! What are you, Solomani or something?

My favorite part in all of GT:

“So I meet this Solly in a bar, and we get to talking. After a while I can’t stand it any more. So I ask him, ‘You’re Solomani, right?’ And he says, ‘Right.’ I ask, ‘So you guys think that the Ancients took all the other Humans off to be their servants, right?’ And he says, ‘Right.’ ‘And you guys got left behind?’ He says, ‘Right.’ ‘So how come, if your ancestors were the ones the Ancients thought couldn’t be trusted to make a dry martini or wipe their shoes before coming in, you’re saying you’re superior to the rest of us?’

He thinks about it. And then he bangs my head into the table.”

– Comedian Anton Wilson Peale

Soundtrack for the slow motion head-banging sequence:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GZib08sHrwE


In an absolute monarchy with no legislative body besides the Emperor's own personal self, it beggars belief that they would care that some insignificant speck of an alien race couldn't see the glorious colors of the Imperial flag. There aren't any rights in the Imperium (correct me if I'm wrong), the closest things I can think of are the right of assassination, the right of fleet control, and the prohibition of slavery.


I liked the Sword Worlders too. One thing that Traveller always lacked was a strong identity for the Vilani. The Solomani, Sword Worlders, Vargr and Aslan had a strong sense of who they were. Not so for the Vilani. DGP tried, but they chose a culture concept that just wasn't exciting or even that interesting.

I didn't see your ideas on the Estates. Can you post a link?

 

[BwapTED]

Yes, hahaha!

That's the only Anton Wilson Peale bit in the book that made me laugh.




I can totally imagine an inordinate number of insufferable douches at the Imperial court and among the toffs of GT's 31. No doubt surrounded by vapid sycophants.

 

[BwapTED]

http://www.travellerrpg.com/CotI/Discuss/showthread.php?t=37633&highlight=Tralp

RDE thread

Variant 1 stays somewhat close to canon.

Variant 2 is a full re-write, just retaining some of the concepts.

 

[Grav_Moped]

IMO the GT Imperium/aristocracy comes off as a smug goody two shoes concerned with everybody's rights, with a vindictive mean streak a mile wide that it can't admit, so it has to make certain groups the morally bad 'other' to make itself feel better about harming and demeaning them.
...


In an absolute monarchy with no legislative body besides the Emperor's own personal self, it beggars belief that they would care that some insignificant speck of an alien race couldn't see the glorious colors of the Imperial flag. There aren't any rights in the Imperium (correct me if I'm wrong), the closest things I can think of are the right of assassination, the right of fleet control, and the prohibition of slavery.

Right to travel (if you have the Cr to do so), right not to be considered property (flip side of prohibition of slavery), right to engage in interstellar trade without tariffs (between and inside extrality zones).

I liked the Sword Worlders too. One thing that Traveller always lacked was a strong identity for the Vilani. The Solomani, Sword Worlders, Vargr and Aslan had a strong sense of who they were. Not so for the Vilani. DGP tried, but they chose a culture concept that just wasn't exciting or even that interesting.
...

For the most part, Imperial Vilani did not need explanation -- as the default, they generally act and react exactly as would typical Americans/Westerners of the late 1970s to early 1980s, because they were expected to be played by Americans/Westerners of that period. More background flavor details would have been nice, but could have interfered with player immersion. ("Your MRE packet is (rolls dice) space-lutefisk and space-kimchee with space-Melba toast -- your favorite. " [Blank look from player] "No, really, that's Vilani comfort food. Read the sourcebook.")

 

[BwapTED]

So Vilani are basically Earth humans from 1970s sci fi TV shows made in the US or the UK?

GT ISW gives the some additional lore and cultural tidbits, though that might all be recycled from other stuff, for all I know.

I have not seen the DGP book.

 

[Tiikeri]

I could go for some space Melba toast. Anything but MRE space casserole.

Imperial Vilani did not need explanation -- as the default, they generally act and react exactly as would typical Americans/Westerners of the late 1970s to early 1980s

That was the vibe I got, but I didn't know it was deliberate, rather than an oversight.

The Vilani needed something more, something that would make players want to play a character of the majority population of the Imperium. Without a strong description of that population and its culture, there's no center. Without a center, people fled to the fringes. They played Vargr, Aslan, Darrians, Sword Worlders, and Solomani, but no Imperials or Vilani. It was somewhat like playing a game set in the Roman Empire, with descriptions of Celts, Germans, Britons and Greeks, but no description of Italic Romans.

 

[Tiikeri]

So Vilani are basically Earth humans from 1970s sci fi TV shows made in the US or the UK?

GT ISW gives the some additional lore and cultural tidbits, though that might all be recycled from other stuff, for all I know.

I have not seen the DGP book.

They're not even earth humans from tv shows. They're just 70s and 80s American earth humans. And they're not even Vilani. They're 'Imperials'.

The DGP book states the Vilani focus on tradition, harmony, group consensus, shared responsibility, and talking everything over with the group before taking action. In other words, completely unappetizing to players.