[Rebirth: 1138] Background Concept

[Golan2072]

Originally posted by Malenfant:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Diocletian:
I can see alot of these elements happening in the way you describe. The only major exception being Lucan.

I can see either one of two things happening with Lucan: 1. Understanding he is defeated, he sets off a doomsday nuclear/fusion bomb device that devistates Capital and makes it a lifeless rock. Or 2. He escapes with some loyal followers and continues to cause trouble as a renegade, possibly taking refuge in Ley Sector.

It does sound more likely to me that Lucan would choose some kind of 'Scorched Earth' policy so that nobody would get Capital. Sorta like what President Clark tried in Babylon 5 at the end of the Earth War. </font>[/QUOTE]Yes, I've now changed my writeup to include such a fitting end for Lucan and Capital (as I've originally hesitated to do) - and yes, that Babylon 5 scene was a major inspiration for this.

Another question: I was thinking about generating stellar data for the Rebirth: 1138 milieu using the Hard Times system and FlightCommanderSolitude's Hard Times UWP change program. However, I think that the distribution of the various zones (Safe, Frontier, Outland and Wilds) for this generation will be different than in the "vanilla" HT (1125-1128), especially due to the collapse of Lucan's Safe, of the Ilelish Safe and of the Solomani Safe. I think that the Frontiers will face the least difficulties, as, on one hand, they were spared the bulk of the pre-1125 fighting, and, on the other hand, the Solomani Civil War and the Second Ilelish Revolt took place mostly deep within the Safes, limited in scope due to the lack of materiel, so that the old Frontier areas might be the breeding ground of the new polities and the first buds of recovery. So, how do you think should I designate each part of the old Imperium and Confederacy for the sake of UWP modifications? What will become of the old Safes? Of the old Frontiers? Of the old Wilds and Outlands?

 

[deadlock]

Greetings and salutations,

*raises right hand*
I have a question. Wouldn't changing the name of Terra to Gaia cause some problems with the different factions of the Solomani? I can see how some hardliners could get miffed with the name change and try to get it changed back. I can see a faction or two bearing arms to accomplish this.

Just a random thought.

 

[deadlock]

Greetings and salutations,

*raises right hand*
I have a question. Wouldn't changing the name of Terra to Gaia cause some problems with the different factions of the Solomani? I can see how some hardliners could get miffed with the name change and try to get it changed back. I can see a faction or two bearing arms to accomplish this.

Just a random thought.

 

[deadlock]

Greetings and salutations,

*raises right hand*
I have a question. Wouldn't changing the name of Terra to Gaia cause some problems with the different factions of the Solomani? I can see how some hardliners could get miffed with the name change and try to get it changed back. I can see a faction or two bearing arms to accomplish this.

Just a random thought.

 

[Golan2072]

Originally posted by Marquis-General Deadlock:
Greetings and salutations,

*raises right hand*
I have a question. Wouldn't changing the name of Terra to Gaia cause some problems with the different factions of the Solomani? I can see how some hardliners could get miffed with the name change and try to get it changed back. I can see a faction or two bearing arms to accomplish this.

Just a random thought.

If I'll go forward with the idea I have in mind for the Gaian Unity, the name change would be an *intentional* break with the old Solomani system - the Unity's government would be heavy on Pan-sophontist elements and other former dissidents, and they would be at war with the remnants of the Hardliners anyway - the name change would be a clear break from the old SolParty dogma. In fact, I could use the term "Earth" instead and then build a "New Earth Union" in paraphrasis of the "Old Earth Union" of the previous Long Night.

 

[Golan2072]

Originally posted by Marquis-General Deadlock:
Greetings and salutations,

*raises right hand*
I have a question. Wouldn't changing the name of Terra to Gaia cause some problems with the different factions of the Solomani? I can see how some hardliners could get miffed with the name change and try to get it changed back. I can see a faction or two bearing arms to accomplish this.

Just a random thought.

If I'll go forward with the idea I have in mind for the Gaian Unity, the name change would be an *intentional* break with the old Solomani system - the Unity's government would be heavy on Pan-sophontist elements and other former dissidents, and they would be at war with the remnants of the Hardliners anyway - the name change would be a clear break from the old SolParty dogma. In fact, I could use the term "Earth" instead and then build a "New Earth Union" in paraphrasis of the "Old Earth Union" of the previous Long Night.

 

[Golan2072]

Originally posted by Marquis-General Deadlock:
Greetings and salutations,

*raises right hand*
I have a question. Wouldn't changing the name of Terra to Gaia cause some problems with the different factions of the Solomani? I can see how some hardliners could get miffed with the name change and try to get it changed back. I can see a faction or two bearing arms to accomplish this.

Just a random thought.

If I'll go forward with the idea I have in mind for the Gaian Unity, the name change would be an *intentional* break with the old Solomani system - the Unity's government would be heavy on Pan-sophontist elements and other former dissidents, and they would be at war with the remnants of the Hardliners anyway - the name change would be a clear break from the old SolParty dogma. In fact, I could use the term "Earth" instead and then build a "New Earth Union" in paraphrasis of the "Old Earth Union" of the previous Long Night.

 

[Golan2072]

I'm not sure yet about where to locate the "default" setting of that milieu. My original intention was to use the Solomani Rim, with the remnants of the collapsed Confederacy and Imperium all around; Terra/Gaia/Earth might be the "start location" and the center of the "default" polity.

Another idea is to balkanize the Spinward Marches. My idea was about Dulinor, desperate for funds and resources, trying to pull a coup in the Domain of Deneb. He'd probably do so by playing on two angles: first, on the fact that he is the "Emperor", that is, controlling (the now irradiated and devastated) Capital and sitting on the Irridium Throne (actually a replica; the original got evaporated by Lucan's Blase of Glory), and, second, playing heavily on the fears of the more "traditional" nobility in the marches, fears from Norris reforms and from the people's response to them (which might be far more dangerous to nobility). He'll then use loyal (and noble-class) military leaders (an Admiral or General) to stage a coup against Norris and establish a Dulinorist government in the Domain. As usual, Dulinor's main weakness - the attempt to change things "from the top" by mechanical means while ignoring or underestimating the masses - would cause the plan to backfire, and actually spark a massive popular uprising against the Dulinorist junta; this will deteriorate into a civil war of various factions against the junta and (in some cases) against each other, with the Zhodani, Vargr, ihatei and Sword-worlders trying to exploit the situation for their advantage but being pulled into the bottomless whirlpool of civil war.

Another variant of the above: instead of Dulinor staging the coup by remote-control, I might have Lucan flee Capital in the last minute with his supporters (and some military asstets) instead of (or before) nuking it. Then he'll travel to the Marches, and try to scheme his way to the top of it - which would eventually backfire and start the abouve-mentioned civil war.

 

[Golan2072]

I'm not sure yet about where to locate the "default" setting of that milieu. My original intention was to use the Solomani Rim, with the remnants of the collapsed Confederacy and Imperium all around; Terra/Gaia/Earth might be the "start location" and the center of the "default" polity.

Another idea is to balkanize the Spinward Marches. My idea was about Dulinor, desperate for funds and resources, trying to pull a coup in the Domain of Deneb. He'd probably do so by playing on two angles: first, on the fact that he is the "Emperor", that is, controlling (the now irradiated and devastated) Capital and sitting on the Irridium Throne (actually a replica; the original got evaporated by Lucan's Blase of Glory), and, second, playing heavily on the fears of the more "traditional" nobility in the marches, fears from Norris reforms and from the people's response to them (which might be far more dangerous to nobility). He'll then use loyal (and noble-class) military leaders (an Admiral or General) to stage a coup against Norris and establish a Dulinorist government in the Domain. As usual, Dulinor's main weakness - the attempt to change things "from the top" by mechanical means while ignoring or underestimating the masses - would cause the plan to backfire, and actually spark a massive popular uprising against the Dulinorist junta; this will deteriorate into a civil war of various factions against the junta and (in some cases) against each other, with the Zhodani, Vargr, ihatei and Sword-worlders trying to exploit the situation for their advantage but being pulled into the bottomless whirlpool of civil war.

Another variant of the above: instead of Dulinor staging the coup by remote-control, I might have Lucan flee Capital in the last minute with his supporters (and some military asstets) instead of (or before) nuking it. Then he'll travel to the Marches, and try to scheme his way to the top of it - which would eventually backfire and start the abouve-mentioned civil war.

 

[Golan2072]

I'm not sure yet about where to locate the "default" setting of that milieu. My original intention was to use the Solomani Rim, with the remnants of the collapsed Confederacy and Imperium all around; Terra/Gaia/Earth might be the "start location" and the center of the "default" polity.

Another idea is to balkanize the Spinward Marches. My idea was about Dulinor, desperate for funds and resources, trying to pull a coup in the Domain of Deneb. He'd probably do so by playing on two angles: first, on the fact that he is the "Emperor", that is, controlling (the now irradiated and devastated) Capital and sitting on the Irridium Throne (actually a replica; the original got evaporated by Lucan's Blase of Glory), and, second, playing heavily on the fears of the more "traditional" nobility in the marches, fears from Norris reforms and from the people's response to them (which might be far more dangerous to nobility). He'll then use loyal (and noble-class) military leaders (an Admiral or General) to stage a coup against Norris and establish a Dulinorist government in the Domain. As usual, Dulinor's main weakness - the attempt to change things "from the top" by mechanical means while ignoring or underestimating the masses - would cause the plan to backfire, and actually spark a massive popular uprising against the Dulinorist junta; this will deteriorate into a civil war of various factions against the junta and (in some cases) against each other, with the Zhodani, Vargr, ihatei and Sword-worlders trying to exploit the situation for their advantage but being pulled into the bottomless whirlpool of civil war.

Another variant of the above: instead of Dulinor staging the coup by remote-control, I might have Lucan flee Capital in the last minute with his supporters (and some military asstets) instead of (or before) nuking it. Then he'll travel to the Marches, and try to scheme his way to the top of it - which would eventually backfire and start the abouve-mentioned civil war.

 

[Valarian]

Nice concept M. Valjean

I'd perhaps go with the Earth renaming rather than Gaia. It could get confused with Gaea (Solomani Rim 0722) in the Albadawi SubSector

I do like the Scorched Earth concept on Capital. Maybe the Irridium Throne ought to be renamed the Irradiated Throne.

[EDIT] An idea ... you could have Dulinor enthroned on his flagship Clarion, constantly touring his Imperium. it ould make sense that someone who rebelled and then has fought for years would be paranoid enough not to want to be in one place for too long. Plus, it's more B5 flavour for Dulinor to be based in space, a la the Grey Council.

 

[Valarian]

Nice concept M. Valjean

I'd perhaps go with the Earth renaming rather than Gaia. It could get confused with Gaea (Solomani Rim 0722) in the Albadawi SubSector

I do like the Scorched Earth concept on Capital. Maybe the Irridium Throne ought to be renamed the Irradiated Throne.

[EDIT] An idea ... you could have Dulinor enthroned on his flagship Clarion, constantly touring his Imperium. it ould make sense that someone who rebelled and then has fought for years would be paranoid enough not to want to be in one place for too long. Plus, it's more B5 flavour for Dulinor to be based in space, a la the Grey Council.

 

[Valarian]

Nice concept M. Valjean

I'd perhaps go with the Earth renaming rather than Gaia. It could get confused with Gaea (Solomani Rim 0722) in the Albadawi SubSector

I do like the Scorched Earth concept on Capital. Maybe the Irridium Throne ought to be renamed the Irradiated Throne.

[EDIT] An idea ... you could have Dulinor enthroned on his flagship Clarion, constantly touring his Imperium. it ould make sense that someone who rebelled and then has fought for years would be paranoid enough not to want to be in one place for too long. Plus, it's more B5 flavour for Dulinor to be based in space, a la the Grey Council.

 

[daryen]

I doubt Lucan or Dulinor would have anything to do with the Domain of Deneb. They are just too far away, and too hard to get to. Remember, the domain is effectively protected by the Ziru Sirkaa and the Vargr in Corridor. (At this point, the Islands are not thought of as a means to traverse the Great Rift.)

So, neither of those two would have any impact on the Domain of Deneb.

However, do you still really want to screw the Domain of Deneb over? It is really quite easy: destroy the Arrival Vengeance.

The primary effect of destroying the Arrival Vengeance is killing Seldrian, Norris' heir and preventing Avery from making it to Norris. If you are really evil, you can have it die (or better yet, "disappear") on its final leg back across the Rift after they picked up Avery.

Regardless of where or how, the disappearance of the Arrival Vengeance will eventually force Norris to come clean about its hijacking, and he will be left empty with the loss of his daughter and heir. If you really want, you can have the utter failure of this mission break him.

Then, as Norris grows old without naming a new heir, factions within the Domain of Deneb will grow restive and start jockeying for position. And when he finally dies, all hell breaks loose and you have civil war in the Domain.

The result is several small empires based around the following worlds: Jewell, Regina, Mora, Glisten, Tobia, Deneb, Vincennes, Askigaak, Lilad. Most other hi-tech hi-pop worlds would either band with the above or stay neutral.

The Sword Worlds would likely suffer through a reorganization of their own as they readjusted their power structure with the "freedom" of the Border Worlds. The result of which can probably anything you want for them.

The Darrians and Floriani would likely be able to ride the whole thing out intact. Arden would likely try to expand some.

The Zhodani would just sit back and enjoy the show. In all likelihood, they would actually offer aid to several nearby empires (Jewell in particular) in hopes of making friendly clients.

But the key is the Arrival Vengeance. Kill it and the Domain of Deneb falls apart on its own.

 

[daryen]

I doubt Lucan or Dulinor would have anything to do with the Domain of Deneb. They are just too far away, and too hard to get to. Remember, the domain is effectively protected by the Ziru Sirkaa and the Vargr in Corridor. (At this point, the Islands are not thought of as a means to traverse the Great Rift.)

So, neither of those two would have any impact on the Domain of Deneb.

However, do you still really want to screw the Domain of Deneb over? It is really quite easy: destroy the Arrival Vengeance.

The primary effect of destroying the Arrival Vengeance is killing Seldrian, Norris' heir and preventing Avery from making it to Norris. If you are really evil, you can have it die (or better yet, "disappear") on its final leg back across the Rift after they picked up Avery.

Regardless of where or how, the disappearance of the Arrival Vengeance will eventually force Norris to come clean about its hijacking, and he will be left empty with the loss of his daughter and heir. If you really want, you can have the utter failure of this mission break him.

Then, as Norris grows old without naming a new heir, factions within the Domain of Deneb will grow restive and start jockeying for position. And when he finally dies, all hell breaks loose and you have civil war in the Domain.

The result is several small empires based around the following worlds: Jewell, Regina, Mora, Glisten, Tobia, Deneb, Vincennes, Askigaak, Lilad. Most other hi-tech hi-pop worlds would either band with the above or stay neutral.

The Sword Worlds would likely suffer through a reorganization of their own as they readjusted their power structure with the "freedom" of the Border Worlds. The result of which can probably anything you want for them.

The Darrians and Floriani would likely be able to ride the whole thing out intact. Arden would likely try to expand some.

The Zhodani would just sit back and enjoy the show. In all likelihood, they would actually offer aid to several nearby empires (Jewell in particular) in hopes of making friendly clients.

But the key is the Arrival Vengeance. Kill it and the Domain of Deneb falls apart on its own.

 

[daryen]

I doubt Lucan or Dulinor would have anything to do with the Domain of Deneb. They are just too far away, and too hard to get to. Remember, the domain is effectively protected by the Ziru Sirkaa and the Vargr in Corridor. (At this point, the Islands are not thought of as a means to traverse the Great Rift.)

So, neither of those two would have any impact on the Domain of Deneb.

However, do you still really want to screw the Domain of Deneb over? It is really quite easy: destroy the Arrival Vengeance.

The primary effect of destroying the Arrival Vengeance is killing Seldrian, Norris' heir and preventing Avery from making it to Norris. If you are really evil, you can have it die (or better yet, "disappear") on its final leg back across the Rift after they picked up Avery.

Regardless of where or how, the disappearance of the Arrival Vengeance will eventually force Norris to come clean about its hijacking, and he will be left empty with the loss of his daughter and heir. If you really want, you can have the utter failure of this mission break him.

Then, as Norris grows old without naming a new heir, factions within the Domain of Deneb will grow restive and start jockeying for position. And when he finally dies, all hell breaks loose and you have civil war in the Domain.

The result is several small empires based around the following worlds: Jewell, Regina, Mora, Glisten, Tobia, Deneb, Vincennes, Askigaak, Lilad. Most other hi-tech hi-pop worlds would either band with the above or stay neutral.

The Sword Worlds would likely suffer through a reorganization of their own as they readjusted their power structure with the "freedom" of the Border Worlds. The result of which can probably anything you want for them.

The Darrians and Floriani would likely be able to ride the whole thing out intact. Arden would likely try to expand some.

The Zhodani would just sit back and enjoy the show. In all likelihood, they would actually offer aid to several nearby empires (Jewell in particular) in hopes of making friendly clients.

But the key is the Arrival Vengeance. Kill it and the Domain of Deneb falls apart on its own.

 

[Golan2072]

Yes, under my scenario Dulinor will win (that is, defeat Lucan and take control of the central regions of the Core sector); but his fleet would suffer from considerable losses due to the stubborn resistance of Lucan's fanatical fleets, and the massive economical damage caused by the prolonged and vicious war would mean that he'll have some very hard and long work ahead on his road of empire-(re)building, especially as large sections of the Imperium's population distrust, or even object to, any Imperial government. The Imperium is dead, politically and economically, and Dulinor would need much more than fleets to remedy this.

The Rebellion has starkly exposed all the problems of the old Imperial system; alot of people would be looking for alternatives by 1130. The Verge Combine and Ziruu Sirka were only the beginning - the Imperium was disintegrating not only as a government but also as a social system.

This, ofcourse, does not take into account the fact that while Dulinor's Coronation Fleet was very massive in late-Rebellion terms, I do not think that it could effectively control more than a sector or two, especially with the heavy losses caused by Lucan's fanatical resistance AND the massive problems of piracy, raiding and non-compliant worlds.

I do not say that a restoration of some sort of an Imperium is impossible in my scenario; but it will be a very difficult and prolonged process, and the new Imperium will probably be much smaller than the old one.

 

[Golan2072]

Yes, under my scenario Dulinor will win (that is, defeat Lucan and take control of the central regions of the Core sector); but his fleet would suffer from considerable losses due to the stubborn resistance of Lucan's fanatical fleets, and the massive economical damage caused by the prolonged and vicious war would mean that he'll have some very hard and long work ahead on his road of empire-(re)building, especially as large sections of the Imperium's population distrust, or even object to, any Imperial government. The Imperium is dead, politically and economically, and Dulinor would need much more than fleets to remedy this.

The Rebellion has starkly exposed all the problems of the old Imperial system; alot of people would be looking for alternatives by 1130. The Verge Combine and Ziruu Sirka were only the beginning - the Imperium was disintegrating not only as a government but also as a social system.

This, ofcourse, does not take into account the fact that while Dulinor's Coronation Fleet was very massive in late-Rebellion terms, I do not think that it could effectively control more than a sector or two, especially with the heavy losses caused by Lucan's fanatical resistance AND the massive problems of piracy, raiding and non-compliant worlds.

I do not say that a restoration of some sort of an Imperium is impossible in my scenario; but it will be a very difficult and prolonged process, and the new Imperium will probably be much smaller than the old one.

 

[Golan2072]

Yes, under my scenario Dulinor will win (that is, defeat Lucan and take control of the central regions of the Core sector); but his fleet would suffer from considerable losses due to the stubborn resistance of Lucan's fanatical fleets, and the massive economical damage caused by the prolonged and vicious war would mean that he'll have some very hard and long work ahead on his road of empire-(re)building, especially as large sections of the Imperium's population distrust, or even object to, any Imperial government. The Imperium is dead, politically and economically, and Dulinor would need much more than fleets to remedy this.

The Rebellion has starkly exposed all the problems of the old Imperial system; alot of people would be looking for alternatives by 1130. The Verge Combine and Ziruu Sirka were only the beginning - the Imperium was disintegrating not only as a government but also as a social system.

This, ofcourse, does not take into account the fact that while Dulinor's Coronation Fleet was very massive in late-Rebellion terms, I do not think that it could effectively control more than a sector or two, especially with the heavy losses caused by Lucan's fanatical resistance AND the massive problems of piracy, raiding and non-compliant worlds.

I do not say that a restoration of some sort of an Imperium is impossible in my scenario; but it will be a very difficult and prolonged process, and the new Imperium will probably be much smaller than the old one.

 

[Golan2072]

"Order" restored would be most likely local order, and while a Failing world could stabilize itself in some cases (usually after a significant population loss and with a huge economical cost), most Doomed worlds will die away within a few years (less than a decade in most cases IMHO) unless they recieve outside help. And "outside help" usually also means that the "savior" world gets a major say (to the very least) in local matters on the saved world. So, for example, a world retaining TL9+ and interstellar shipping capabilities with several Doomed or Failing neighbours would be quite likely to form a new pocket-empire, using its capability to save worlds from total death as a powerful mean of coercion against dying worlds.