Rechargable laser rifles?

[mandelkubb]

Hi, I just wanted to get some opionions on the laser rifles in T:2300, and perhaps a hint about what's canon. I'm new to T:2300, but got a copy in my hands recently (the box, no supplements so far).

When reading the section about laser rifles, it looks like the powerpacks are disposable, not rechargable. This should make sense if the need for power is so high only a one-shot power cell can meet it (as with the plasma weapons). On the other hand, there is a flywheel installed because the power cell can't cope with the peak demands. IMHO, the main advantage of a laser rifle would be the ability to recharge the power cells from a vehicle. That way the need to replensish troops with ammunition would disappear, lessening the burden on the supply troops. There are of course other advantages, but the logistics would be the biggest, IMO. "Amateurs talk tactics, professionals talk logistics"

The solution IMU would be to make the cells rechargable, but how have you done? Do you think this is a problem at all?

 

[GJD]

My interpretation has always been that they are re-chargeable, but not in the field. The technology that is used in the batteries, Liquid Metallic Suspension, has a high enough PSB factor that you could go either way though.

In my old campaign the military, who mainly used battery pack lasers for snipers, would only use each cell once, flogging the old cells on to militias and private sales at a discount rate.

Private users could take part in a return to manufacturer program, 20% discount on new cells when swapped for an old, empty one. These would then be re-charged and sold in bulk to mercs and so on. As each cell was charged up it would de-grade with time, so some of the fourth or fith generatin cells that the TFL sniper had only held one or two charges.

 

[Colin]

I've always held that they were not field-rechargeable units either. However, some vehicle outfitted as a mobile shop / repair vehicle could likely carry the equipment necessary.

As I ruled them, the LMS cells slowly solidifed as you used them, sort of like phase-change salts. The energy derived from them was due, in part, to the phase change. To recharge them you had to return them to their liquid state, which required specialized equipment. Many militaries simply didn't bother.

 

[mandelkubb]

Thanks for your input.

Personally, I think the main advantage of a laser weapon disappear when the "ammunition" isn't rechargable in the field (like the lasers in CT which are rechargable from a ship).
But if that is allowed, they may become too powerful overall...

CJD, what's a "PSB factor"?

 

[duran.goodyear]

laser weapons have a CLEAR advantage for any low-g/zero-g personal combat.

the recoil for projectile weapons and plasma weapons make them almost useless in a zero-g environment.

I would suspect that battery technology in 2300ad is significantly more advanced then it is today, and even if you can only carry 20 shots per "clip" those clips would be rechargable in the field. even if it took a long time to do it.

"Sargent, plug in everyon'es spare clips, I want to be ready in 12 hours!"

You know, say, an APC had a powerplant that could charge 10 clips, each with 20 shots, up to power in 10 hours, or something.

you could definatly run out of ammo, but the logistics train would be much shorter for the troops.

I've always thought that the reason laser weapons weren't used on a more wide scale was that they were in general more expensive to produce per soldier, for a negligible firepower increase. combined with a logistics maintance issue.

I imagine that for the realities of colonial combat, with a very limited repair inferstructure, that gause, and binary projectile weapons are MUCH easier to maintain and use in a combat situation.

Simply put, while I am not a military person in real life, every military person I've ever talked to who has actually seen combat has said they would rather take a gun that WORKS no matter what you do to it, then a gun that does twice as much damage.

in the end, when a guy gets shot by something, they tend to become inactive for a good chunk of time. and even if you just wound a guy, he becomes inactive, and then his buddies usually stop shooting to take care of him. in that sense, I imagine that an analogous weapon to the AK47 sees more action on the remote fronteirs fighting the kafers, then an analog to the new AUG ACR weapons.

more of those 2 cents I keep using up.

 

[mike wightman]

Trouble is if you are fighting Kafers:

a) they don't stop for wounded they eat them;
b) wounding them causes them pain, pain causes fear etc.

I like the idea of an AK47, simple, reliable but make sure it can stop a Kafer, I wouldn't want them to close to bayonet range.

Oh yes, nearly forgot, it clearly states "disposable" for laser weapon energy cells.

 

[BMonnery]

Originally posted by mandelkubb:
Hi, I just wanted to get some opionions on the laser rifles in T:2300, and perhaps a hint about what's canon. I'm new to T:2300, but got a copy in my hands recently (the box, no supplements so far).

When reading the section about laser rifles, it looks like the powerpacks are disposable, not rechargable. This should make sense if the need for power is so high only a one-shot power cell can meet it (as with the plasma weapons). On the other hand, there is a flywheel installed because the power cell can't cope with the peak demands. IMHO, the main advantage of a laser rifle would be the ability to recharge the power cells from a vehicle. That way the need to replensish troops with ammunition would disappear, lessening the burden on the supply troops. There are of course other advantages, but the logistics would be the biggest, IMO. "Amateurs talk tactics, professionals talk logistics"

The solution IMU would be to make the cells rechargable, but how have you done? Do you think this is a problem at all?

Yes, they're dispoable, but there's no reason why rechangable can't be substituted, except they'd have significantly less energy density (i.e. half the shots for the same weight).

IRL the British Army take rechargable batteries out for their equipment on exercise, but use non-rechargable (which last longer) in war.

Bryn

 

[GJD]

Originally posted by mandelkubb:


CJD, what's a "PSB factor"?

Pseudo-Scientific-Bullsh**. A slightly more refined version of Star Treks techno-babble (Worst offence: "If we bombard it with a stream of positrons we can enlarge the crack in the event horizon").

G.

 

[Glen Allen Mcinnes]

most of the 23AD GM's I'v played with eventualy said (once rechargable batries became more choman) was that the 5Lv clips where Recicleable and you got back betwean 5-20% each (non-feild)rechargable ones came in at around betwean 15-25Lv each and where ocasonialy hard to come by the army had acess to feild recharable clips at the cost of around 50Lv each and held on to them till they gaind around a 5% failure rate then sold them as surplus on the cilvilion market but most mercs shyed away from them.

 

[TKalbfus]

Sigg Oddra said,

I like the idea of an AK47, simple, reliable but make sure it can stop a Kafer, I wouldn't want them to close to bayonet range.

Oh yes, nearly forgot, it clearly states "disposable" for laser weapon energy cells.

Would you want to use a flintlock musket against terrorists? In 2300 an AK47 would be the equivalent of a flintlock musket, you know the kind, where you have 7 steps to load the charge, the ball and ram it down the barrel with a ram rod.

313 said,

most of the 23AD GM's I'v played with eventualy said (once rechargable batries became more choman) was that the 5Lv clips where Recicleable and you got back betwean 5-20% each (non-feild)rechargable ones came in at around betwean 15-25Lv each and where ocasonialy hard to come by the army had acess to feild recharable clips at the cost of around 50Lv each and held on to them till they gaind around a 5% failure rate then sold them as surplus on the cilvilion market but most mercs shyed away from them.

The most powerful lasers we know today are chemical lasers, they can be recharged, but the chemicals they use are highly toxic. Perhaps the actual laser is in the backpack. The laser beam may then be focused through a fiber optic cable into the rifle, which is the control and targeting device. Such a backpack would be disposable and recyclable. Simply leaving the back pack in the field is equivalent to dumping toxic waste, that is if the laser rifle is a chemical laser.

 

[Glen Allen Mcinnes]

All the pickies in the book (except the laser pistol)show a fully self containd uint and the side bar states that they use a fast-discharge homopoler generator to pulse berwean 20 & 70 Mw in 1/100th of a secound

 

[Glen Allen Mcinnes]

fogot to menchion that they are powered by removable Liquid-Metallic Suspension (LMS) Battery Packs no sine or word or signe of a CLC aneywhere

 

[TKalbfus]

So it is then basically an electric laser. An electric laser could be plugged in or could be powered by a fuel cell. The laser would probably need a capacitor so it can build up sufficient voltage to create a beam powerful enough to do some damage. Hydrogen fuel cells are recharged by replacing the hydrogen. This can be done in the field assuming you have a source of hydrogen and a way of storing it.

 

[mike wightman]

Originally posted by Tom Kalbfus:
Would you want to use a flintlock musket against terrorists? In 2300 an AK47 would be the equivalent of a flintlock musket, you know the kind, where you have 7 steps to load the charge, the ball and ram it down the barrel with a ram rod.

I was replying to the previous poster's idea for a colonial AK47 analogue, which would probably be some sort of ultra reliable, easily maintainable, locally produced binary propellant assault rifle.

Looking at the weapon tech of T2300 slug throwing weapons haven't advanced greatly over what we have now , YMMV of course.

And I don't think firing an archaic AK47 at a Kafer is quite as disadvantaged as using a smoothbore flintlock musket against a terrorist
The AK47 could empty 30 rounds into the Kafer before reloading

 

[Glen Allen Mcinnes]

yes but a Hydrogen fuel cell of the size neaded to generate the pulse is bloody heavy espechily for mutiple shots, where a LMS clip comes in at 1kg

 

[BMonnery]

Interestingly, the cell is connected to the weapon body by a photonic cable, i.e. fibre optics.

This means the cell is already charged and the population inverted, and creates the pulse. The weapon body only focuses it (not an easy task).

Leaves the question what the HPG is for....

Bryn

 

[Glen Allen Mcinnes]

The only 23AD laser weapon where the powerpack is seperate from the main body is the pistol and I'd say that the "mechnesim" is split betwean the clip component and the hand peice.

 

[getamungstit]

In 2300AD the laser personal weapon's power cell powers a flywheel which releases the energy at the required high frequency to operate the laser beam generator. So it’s kind of a two step system.

Unfortunately the GDW writers missed out on the 3 key points which make lasers much better infantry weapons than anything else:

1. “Muzzle Velocity” is 300,000,000 meters per second (a M16's 5.56mm bullet is about 1,000 meters per second)

2. The “Ammunition” doesn’t need to be carried on the weapon

3. The “Ammunition” can be distributed to the end user via beaming, power grids, etc.

What these points mean is that it would be ludicrous to actually have the power cell on the weapon, even a 7mj LMS cell weighs an extra kilogram and no soldier in the world would want to hold an extra kilo in their hands when they could strap in on their webbing/backpack/combat vest. This also frees the weapon from having a small on hand ammo capacity of 10-20 shots. So if you are going to carry 3.5-kg of ammo (about 8 30 round 5.56mm magazines) then you could have one big power cell with 35-70 shots for your laser on hand (utilizing LMS type batteries).

You would also demand a rechargeable power cell so you could resupply by simply plugging into the local power grid. Or if this is down having the supply corps beam it to you by microwaves or run a line up to your troops. Or you could generate it yourself via vehicle power plants or solar power cells, etc. This is a huge logistics advantage. In real war situations a lot of the infantry’s time is spent in hand carrying extra ammo to the frontline, especially belted MG ammo. Lasers dispense with all this.

But what makes lasers so lethal as combat weapons is its “time of flight” to the target is practically instantaneous. It takes over a third of a second for a 5.56mm bullet to reach a target 300-m away (average combat distance) and in a battlefield this is an eternity. Combat rifle accuracy as opposed to banging away at unmoving bullseyes on a rifle range is dependent totally on “time of flight”. One third of a second is long enough for you to see a muzzle flash, register what it means and duck. Literally dodging bullets happens all the time in the battlefield, which is why burst fire and shooting at unsuspecting foes is where most personal weapons casualties come from. However lasers make it actually possible for the combat rifleman to hit that fleeting target running from one building to another 300-m away because there is no real “time of flight”. Even for 2300AD lasers that require 0.01/0.02 of a second for the beam to remain on target to do their damage. This is a significant improvement over even “high” muzzle velocity weapons like the 5.56mm or flechette firing rifles (MV of around 1,300 mps) like the Steyr ACR.

For more on more accurate use combat lasers in 2300AD see:

http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~dheb/2300/Oceania/ADF2/adffdwep.htm

 

[alanb]

Originally posted by 313:
The only 23AD laser weapon

Hmm. Interesting typo...

 

[Glen Allen Mcinnes]

No typo it's what we used as short-hand in our gaming group for 2300AD pronounced 2-3-AD