Regimental Headquarters & Whatever Company?

[Reban]

Infantry tactics on a TL15 battlefield are going to be very different, so organisation is going to be very different.

But at the same time it's a game so we have to have a touchstone that makes sense to players without that understanding.


What would be ideal is to have a TRADOC for Traveller that looks at the doctrine and tactics that goes with all the tech and environment and then designs the units and formations.

 

[salochin999]

Historically what's happened is

step 1) infantry unit
step 2) support equipment or heavier weapons developed
step 3) integrated as separate support units to the infantry unit
step 4) integrated inside the infantry unit
step 1) new infantry unit
rinse and repeat

So i think the WWII model may or may not fit the Imperial Army depending on whether it was a time of change in support weapons/equipment. If it was a time when the support weapons had been static for a while then most of it may have been folded into the infantry battalions.

A modern infantry platoon with LAWs and MANPADs could probably take out more Tiger Tanks than a WWII AT platoon *and* more aircraft than a WWII AA platoon *and* still function as infantry.

In which case I think you could possibly have an Imperial regiment with a very simple armored infantry regiment organisation on the surface with most of the complexity hidden inside in the equipment load out.


Some of the earlier specialist functions were
direct support (machine guns etc)
indirect support (mortars etc)
armor support
anti-tank
air support
anti-air

In an armored infantry grav vehicle setting armor support, air support, anti-tank and anti-air all merge to a large extent then apart from whatever man portable support weapons the squads carry themselves if the squad fighting vehicles have the equivalent of an AT/AA missile and an auto-cannon/HMG then that covers most of the above list.

That's most of a WWII brigade level support inside a standard armored infantry platoon.

(Of course a platoon or above doesn't have to have the same squad vehicles, a platoon could be 2 x infantry fighting vehicles and 1 grav tank or a company could be 2 x infantry platoons and 2 x tank platoons or whatever - mainly focusing here on what the HQ element would provide.)

beyond heavy weapons you have things like
signals
medical
electronic warfare/intelligence
recon
maintenance/supply
engineers
others?

(I'd say supply and maintenance would be a big deal due to having so many different weapons and types of equipment.)

So
step 1) create your list of specialist functions
step 2) calculate how many slots you have to play with

Squad = 2 Fire Teams (4 person each)
Platoon = 3 Squads plus HQ Element
Company = 4 Platoons plus HQ Platoon
Battalion = 5 Companies plus HQ Group
Regiment = 4 Battalions plus HQ Company (+ Administrative Company for the Regimental Garrison)

Taking the original list and saying the HQ element is the size of the next lower element then you get something like:

Platoon HQ:
- squad size
- 1 x HQ team
- 1 x specialist team
Company HQ:
- platoon size
- 1 x HQ section
- 2-3 X specialist sections
Battalion HQ:
- company size
- 1 x HQ platoon
- 2-3 specialist platoons
Regiment HQ:
- battalion size
- 1 x HQ company
- 2-3 specialist companies


So you go through the list of available slots, compare to the list of specialist functions and see which you think would be the most critical.

I'd say the basic armored infantry platoon has most of the direct heavy weapons support it needs in the squads so the first priority would be indirect support so maybe something like

Platoon HQ
- squad size
- 1 x command team (inc comms and medic)
- 1 x indirect fire team (mortar equivalent)

Company HQ
- platoon size
- 1 x command squad (inc comms)
- 1 x medical squad
- 1 x supply&maintenance squad
- 1 x indirect fire squad

Battalion HQ
- company size
- 1 x command platoon
--- 1 x command squad
--- 1 x comms squad
--- 1 x intelligence&electronic warfare squad
--- 1 x medical squad
- 1 x supply&maintenance platoon
- 1 x indirect fire platoon
- 1 x recon platoon

Regimental HQ
- battalion size
- 1 x command company
--- 1 x command&comms platoon
--- 1 x intelligence&EW platoon
--- 1 x medical platoon
--- 1 x supply&maintenance platoon
- 1 x indirect support company
- 1 x recon company
- 1 x engineer company

 

[Timerover51]

You are approaching control overload for a commander once you get much over 4 units to monitor and command. Five is pushing it a lot. The military are conservative, as mistakes get people killed. Three to four sub-units for a commander is what can be handled under the stress of combat.

With greater Tech Level you are going to greater maintenance requirements and supply requirements. Consider how long it takes to charge a battery pack for a laser compared to how fast that battery will be expended. Then you need to collect the battery packs and get them to the charging points. Then you have to charge them and return them to the using units.

As for tactics for a Tech Level 15 units being drastically different, you are still using direct fire weapons aimed and fired by men. You have a distinct limit on target detection and identification. I fail to see any major changes. The average soldier is not going to be hitting targets 1000 meters away unless he/she/it is on a billboard like surface. Add in differences in gravity and distance to the horizon, and you have additional problems.

In peace time, governments, except totalitarian dictatorships, are very reluctant to spend money on the military. The assumption should be for a planet, you are going to get maybe 3% of the GDP for the military at best, and might only get 1%. That changes drastically in wartime, but even then, it would appear that there is a cap of about 50% spent on military without breaking your economy.

 

[salochin999]

You are approaching control overload for a commander once you get much over 4 units to monitor and command. Five is pushing it a lot. The military are conservative, as mistakes get people killed. Three to four sub-units for a commander is what can be handled under the stress of combat.

With greater Tech Level you are going to greater maintenance requirements and supply requirements. Consider how long it takes to charge a battery pack for a laser compared to how fast that battery will be expended. Then you need to collect the battery packs and get them to the charging points. Then you have to charge them and return them to the using units.

As for tactics for a Tech Level 15 units being drastically different, you are still using direct fire weapons aimed and fired by men. You have a distinct limit on target detection and identification. I fail to see any major changes. The average soldier is not going to be hitting targets 1000 meters away unless he/she/it is on a billboard like surface. Add in differences in gravity and distance to the horizon, and you have additional problems.

In peace time, governments, except totalitarian dictatorships, are very reluctant to spend money on the military. The assumption should be for a planet, you are going to get maybe 3% of the GDP for the military at best, and might only get 1%. That changes drastically in wartime, but even then, it would appear that there is a cap of about 50% spent on military without breaking your economy.

"You are approaching control overload for a commander once you get much over 4 units to monitor and command."

Personally I'd probably change the initial list

Squad = 2 Fire Teams (4 person each)
Platoon = 3 Squads plus HQ Element
Company = 4 Platoons plus HQ Platoon
Battalion = 5 Companies plus HQ Group
Regiment = 4 Battalions plus HQ Company (+ Administrative Company for the Regimental Garrison)

to a standard 3 elements + HQ except the Regiment has 4 battalions with the 4th battalion as the skeleton training battalion back at the garrison so

Platoon = 3 Squads + HQ Squad
Company = 3 Platoons + HQ Platoon
Battalion = 3 Companies + HQ Company
Regiment = 3 Battalions + HQ Battalion + 4th training Battalion

 

[Reban]

With greater Tech Level you are going to greater maintenance requirements and supply requirements.


As for tactics for a Tech Level 15 units being drastically different, you are still using direct fire weapons aimed and fired by men.

Well one thing you should be able to cut out is POL. Petrol, Oil and Lubricants shouldn't have any place in a fusion powered grav mobile army. Although I acknowledge that they might just be replaced by Hydrogen and Water requirements.

Energy weapons mounted on vehicles may be able to be powered directly by the vehicle powerplant. Weapon powercell rechargers should be included on every troop carrying vehicle. The aim should be to make the squad or platoon self sufficient for normal combat operations. Expendable rounds become the main ammo concern.

Tactics wise I think movement will look a lot like air mobile operations today. Where support weapons and artillery are located changes (in some cases to orbit or the other side of the planet) but their role and use don't. Individual weapons are still for combat under 1000 meters but the ability of the individual soldier to request and get accurate fire support from all levels will be greater. Tactics wise it will be more of the same, but (hopefully) more refined.

 

[aramis]

You are approaching control overload for a commander once you get much over 4 units to monitor and command. Five is pushing it a lot. The military are conservative, as mistakes get people killed. Three to four sub-units for a commander is what can be handled under the stress of combat.

The US and UK ones are; many smaller nations' militaries are far less so. Especially ones where the revolution was recently successful, and many dictatorships with strong ideologies.

In practice, the larger than 5 subordinate units per unit militaries (including the 19th C US) had ad hoc units in the 2-5 of 2-5 each. EG: a 16 company US CW era Battalion was nominally 3 or 4 companies, lead by a major, and the Major was also a company commander. The Regiment also sometimes broke into two "Wings", one commanded by the Colonel, the other by the Lt Col.

It's worth noting as well - many militaries do not practice the mid-late 20th C direct control of subordinates above the company (or equivalent 100-250 man units) level in the same way the US and UK did. Even the current US deployments vary widely in level of decision making in combat. In many, the company or battalion is the active level of direct command, and above that, it's primarily administrative, while in the UK, the regiment is administrative, the battallions are assigned to brigades in the field, and the brigade is nominally the top-level of direct command. Meanwhile, in 2004-2008, many marine operations were platoon level direct command, with the battalion and Company CO's simply assigning the missions, and letting the LT and the Platoon Sergeant work it out in the field. (According to the marines I've talked to about it, most of the time, the LT parroted the Plt Sgt when it didn't conflict with unshared directives.) There has been news coverage about USMC squad leaders making the decision to engage in Somalia, Afghanistan, and even as far back as the late 1990's... informing, but not waiting for permission from, the Plt, Co, Bn, Reg, or Bde CO.

 

[Timerover51]

Meanwhile, in 2004-2008, many marine operations were platoon level direct command, with the battalion and Company CO's simply assigning the missions, and letting the LT and the Platoon Sergeant work it out in the field. (According to the marines I've talked to about it, most of the time, the LT parroted the Plt Sgt when it didn't conflict with unshared directives.) There has been news coverage about USMC squad leaders making the decision to engage in Somalia, Afghanistan, and even as far back as the late 1990's... informing, but not waiting for permission from, the Plt, Co, Bn, Reg, or Bde CO.

And exactly why is this unusual? You are in a combat situation. You do not ask for permission to open fire, that is a given. For more information on small unit actions, see the following material available for free download.

http://www.history.army.mil/html/books/030/30-2/index.html
Combat Actions in Korea

http://www.history.army.mil/html/books/070/70-4/index.html
Seven Firefights in Vietnam

http://www.history.army.mil/html/books/011/11-7-1/index.html
Three Battles - Arnaville, Altuzzo, and Schmidt

http://www.history.army.mil/books/wwii/marauders/marauders-fw.htm
Merrill's Marauders

http://www.history.army.mil/html/bookshelves/collect/afia.html
American Forces in Action series covering World War 2, Merrill's Marauders is one of the studies.

The Marauders were a regimental-sized independent unit operating in Burma during World War 2.

 

[Timerover51]

Energy weapons mounted on vehicles may be able to be powered directly by the vehicle powerplant. Weapon powercell rechargers should be included on every troop carrying vehicle. The aim should be to make the squad or platoon self sufficient for normal combat operations. Expendable rounds become the main ammo concern.

See the Canon requirements for time to recharge battery packs.

Tactics wise I think movement will look a lot like air mobile operations today.

Try to run airmobile operations in mountainous areas, heavy jungle or forest, during bad weather (rain, snow, sleet, dense fog), or areas of high winds. Your operational non-combat losses start to accumulate very quickly.

Where support weapons and artillery are located changes (in some cases to orbit or the other side of the planet) but their role and use don't. Individual weapons are still for combat under 1000 meters but the ability of the individual soldier to request and get accurate fire support from all levels will be greater. Tactics wise it will be more of the same, but (hopefully) more refined.

Remember that anything in orbit keeps moving, it does not sit over one place unless in geosynchronous orbit. How many weapons do you plan to have in orbit, aside from the time lag involved in getting something from orbit to the target area, along with this problems of re-entry.

As for other side of the planet, how long is your time lag from request for fire support to impact, along with how accurate is your ICBM, and then there is this minor item called, HOW MUCH DOES THIS THING COST FOR ONE SHOT?

As you will still be using radio-based communications, I fail to see why any improvement should be anticipated.

 

[Quint]

@ ALL - Thank you for the excellent commentary!

The other part of what I am assuming is that under either the Classic or the Mongoose rules, the "average planet" (as in, what is statistically most mostly to be rolled) is C555555-(7-8). So, if we even just decide that the IA is equipped to the average TL of the Imperium (which always sticks in my mind as a "12" for some reason), there is a *huge* tech advantage for the IA. For my purposes I'm working from this assumption, understanding that there might some significant variations in special circumstances.

Plus, the most common missions are Counter-Insurgencies and Police Actions - presumably more Vietnams and Northern Irelands and less Fulda Gap.

So, the average planet is TL 7 50% of the time, and TL8 the other 50% of the time - meaning that even Grav troops have a significant advantage half the time. Not to mention Combat Armor and Gauss/Plasma weapons vs. Kevlar and Assault Rifles(and some Laser Carbines)/RAM Gernades.

For indirect fire, especially with such a tech disparity and the availability of grav tech, I'd question the need to hump mortars around and instead suggest that ADM's would be the way to go. Similarly, even according to the venerable BK4, artillery has been superseded by drone missiles - and I tend to see being launched from MRL's (or a similar system) if it isn't a variation of an ADM.

Thanks again for a great discussion!

D.

*Also worth noting, using the semi-notorious FFW/JTAS#10 table, the "average world" mentioned above produces 2 Battalions of troops. So the independent IA Regiment is arguably an overwhelming force. Twice as many troops with a 4-5 TL advantage.

 

[salochin999]

For indirect fire, especially with such a tech disparity and the availability of grav tech, I'd question the need to hump mortars around and instead suggest that ADM's would be the way to go. Similarly, even according to the venerable BK4, artillery has been superseded by drone missiles - and I tend to see being launched from MRL's (or a similar system) if it isn't a variation of an ADM.

I'm assuming whatever the indirect fire weapons were would be grav vehicle mounted but otherwise yes I was using mortars as an illustration of indirect fire weapon. I doubt TL12 would be using mortars.

 

[GameDaddy]

Oh, and a bit more for you there.

Was working on a new Spycraft mission yesterday... It's for a Walking Dead RPG game I decided to set in Chicago just for kicks.

You can go to:
http://currentops.com/
...to get various unit tables of organization and equipment

or here is good as well
http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/army/unit/toe/

After the initial survival challenges, I rolled up a military unit encounter. Being Chicago, i figured National Guard and went ahead and looked up the guard units from Illionois. Here's the breakdown of the units from the greater Chicago area, the 33rd Infantry Combat Brigade Team... Illinois has another Brigade as well, total ground & air troops in the state, about 16,000...

33rd Infantry Brigade Combat Team Urbana Armory | Urbana, Illinois, United States
Headquarters and Headquarters Company

1st Battalion, 178th Infantry Regiment (Air Assault)
GEN Jones Armory | Chicago, Illinois
Headquarters and Headquarters Company
Company A Bartonville AFRC | Bartonville, Illinois 6x CH-53 Chinook
Company B Elgin Armory | Elgin, Illinois (No Helicopters 2 Hummwvs) normally 10x UH-60 Blackhawk
Company C Kankakee Armory | Kankakee, Illinois 10x UH-60 Blackhawks
Company D Woodstock Armory | Woodstock, Illinois 10X UH-60 Blackhawk
Company E, 634th Brigade Support Battalion (Attached) Joliet Armory | Joliet, Illinois Full Infantry Company with Vehicles 12x humvvs, 24x light trucks 10x Hvy Trucks 10x trailers/Generators

2nd Battalion, 130th Infantry Regiment
Marion Armory | Marion, Illinois
Headquarters and Headquarters Company
Company A West Frankfort Armory | West Frankfort, Illinois
Company B Effingham Armory | Effingham, Illinois
Company C Litchfield Armory | Litchfield, Illinois
Company D Mount Vernon AFRC | Mount Vernon, Illinois
Company F, 634th Brigade Support Battalion (Attached) Mount Vernon AFRC | Mount Vernon, Illinois (Mechanics & Trucks)

2nd Squadron, 106th Cavalry Regiment (RSTA)
Kewanee Armory | Kewanee, Illinois
Headquarters and Headquarters Troop
Troop A Pontiac Armory | Pontiac, Illinois 7x Hmmvs 2 Lt Trucks 5 Trailers
Troop B Dixon Armory | Dixon, Illinois 22x Hmmvs 2 Lt Trucks, 4 Trailers
Troop C Aurora Armory | Aurora, Illinois
Company D, 634th Brigade Support Battalion (Attached) Galva Armory | Galva, Illinois (Mechanics & Trucks)

2nd Battalion, 122nd Field Artillery Regiment
GEN Jones Armory | Chicago, Illinois
Headquarters and Headquarters Battery
Battery A (105 T) Sycamore Armory | Sycamore, Illinois (6 towed M119 105mm Towed Howitzers)
Battery B (105 T) Crestwood Armory | Robbins, Illinois (6 towed M119 105mm Towed Howitzers)
Company G, 634th Brigade Support Battalion (Attached) Crestwood Armory | Robbins, Illinois (Mechanics & Trucks)

634th Brigade Support Battalion Sullivan Armory | Sullivan, Illinois
Headquarters and Headquarters Company
Company A (Distribution) Mattoon Armory | Mattoon, Illinois (Transportation)
Company B Champaign Armory | Champaign, Illinois (Mechanics)
Company C Camp Lincoln | Springfield, Illinois
Company D Galva Armory | Galva, Illinois
Company E Joliet Armory | Joliet, Illinois
Company F Mount Vernon AFRC | Mount Vernon, Illinois
Company G Crestwood Armory | Robbins, Illinois


Special Troops Battalion Machesney Park Armory | Machesney Park, Illinois
Headquarters and Headquarters Company
Company A Marseilles Tng Area | Marseilles, Illinois (Combat Engineers)
Company B Bloomington Armory | Bloomington, Illinois (Military Intel + UAV)
Company C Carbondale AFRC | Murphysboro, Illinois (Signal/Communications)

Modern Cavalry Squadrons
That RSTA squadron will have 4–6 troops/companies, typically: 3 reconnaissance troops/companies (consisting of 19D MOS cavalry scouts and 11B infantrymen); a headquarters troop (HHT) which contains organic (that is, permanently and directly assigned) intelligence, communications, and fire (artillery) support, and a surveillance section (sometimes a troop) with UAV aerial support.

Modern Infantry Company TO&E
The general force Structure is 3-4 Platoons each composed of 3-4 eleven man squads. Generally this is three rifle squads and one weapons squad, normally armed with heavy machine guns and anti-tank weapons. Lieutenants lead most platoons, and the second-in-command is generally a sergeant first class.

Company-sized units, 130 to 200 soldiers, are normally commanded by captains. They consist of four platoons, usually of the same type, a headquarters platoon, and maybe some logistical capabilities. Companies are the basic elements of all battalions. In the artillery corps, a company would be called a battery. Cavalry units refer to this unit level as a troop. Regular infantry will have 15-25 mixed vehicles Huummvss, light trucks, maybe a scout car or two, or a pair of M3 Command Bradley IFVs. Each squad in a Mechanized Infantry company is assigned to an M2 Bradley Infantry Fighting vehicle. So A mechanized Infantry company would have 16-18 M2 Bradleys, maybe 1 or 2 M3 Command Bradleys, and 10-15 Trucks & Humvvs.

 

[Timerover51]

For indirect fire, especially with such a tech disparity and the availability of grav tech, I'd question the need to hump mortars around and instead suggest that ADM's would be the way to go. Similarly, even according to the venerable BK4, artillery has been superseded by drone missiles - and I tend to see being launched from MRL's (or a similar system) if it isn't a variation of an ADM.

When I see "ADM" I think Atomic Demolition Munition, aka "suitcase bomb". I do not think that is how you are using it. What is it the abbreviation for?

I repeat, governments do not like to spend money on the military. You appear to assume that you have an unlimited supply of "drone missiles". How much do they cost per missile? And if you have drone missiles, then you need drone operators, in addition to the crews firing the drone missiles. They need some form of equipment to control said drones. How much does the operators and the needed control equipment cost? And then there are the needed maintenance technicians, and a minor matter of troop training. Cost of equipment please?

I am also assuming that you have fusion plants in your grav vehicles. Anyone care to explain how you pack a fusion plant, all necessary shielding, and equipment to convert the energy generated by the fusion reaction to electricity to run your grav units and propulsion system for your vehicles? Or is this strictly Traveller "handwavium", in which case, why are you bothering with using fusion guns (by the way, how are you handing all of the radiation produced by the fusion reaction without frying the individual firing the fusion gun) and simply go to disintegrators and phasers? All of them would be equal in terms of "handwavium."

With respect to the number of troops for a planetary defense force, in war time, the maximum mobilization a country can make without destroying its economy is 10% of the population. That does assume wartime conditions. A World War 2 Division Slice, which comprised one division with all needed support troops in both the Theater of Operations and Zone of Interior was 60,000 men with about 17,000 of them being in the division and attached units. Note, those are all men in the Army supporting the combat unit. That does not include any civilian production forces making the equipment or growing the food for said troops. You might be able so shave that down some to 40,000, which is the divisional slice in the Theater of Operations, assuming that no troops are deployed at extended distances on the planet.

An air wing slice, for a basic 72 aircraft wing, averaging all combat types together, was 5,000 men in the Theater of Operations, with an average of 1300 being in the combat units, and the rest in support and supply roles. That does not make any allowance for units in the Zone of the Interior, acting to funnel the necessary supplies of fuel, ordnance, spare parts and aircraft, food, and assorted other stuff to the Theater of Operations. Note, the number are a lot worse now with the massive increase in electronics and the advent of the jet engine.

 

[aramis]

And exactly why is this unusual? You are in a combat situation. You do not ask for permission to open fire, that is a given. For more information on small unit actions, see the following material available for free download.

You do if you haven't been fired upon, and it's not an obvious target within pre-approved target parameters.

The decision to engage is not the same as the decision to return fire.

If one is engaged by the enemy, one isn't deciding to engage, one's deciding whether to return fire or not, and whether to fall back or not. The decision to engage is axiomatically prior to fire being received; once either side is firing, engagement has already happened.

The US Military has always given Officers the permission to engage on discretion if not otherwise barred by standing orders.

 

[aramis]

@ ALL - Thank you for the excellent commentary!

The other part of what I am assuming is that under either the Classic or the Mongoose rules, the "average planet" (as in, what is statistically most mostly to be rolled) is C555555-(7-8). So, if we even just decide that the IA is equipped to the average TL of the Imperium (which always sticks in my mind as a "12" for some reason), there is a *huge* tech advantage for the IA. For my purposes I'm working from this assumption, understanding that there might some significant variations in special circumstances.

TL12 is "average stellar" according to the tech level tables. Several places note that it's the average imperial TL, as well. Note that the average imperial citizen is from a Pop A world. 10x as many people as Pop 9's, and pop 9s are only 2x as common...

do the math. There are about 4x as many people on Pop A worlds as on all the rest combined.

0: 1x1xPM
1: 2x10xPM
2: 3x100xPM
3: 4x1000xPM
4: 5x10000xPM
5: 6x100000xPM
6: 5x1000000xPM
7: 4x10000000xPM
8: 3x100000000xPM
9: 2x1000000000xPM
A: 1x10000000000xPM
36 worlds = 12345654321

Note that the magnitude means that
Starports (in CT/MT) are 6/36 A, 9/36 B, 11/36 C, 4/36 D, 5/36 E, 1/36 X.
So... since we can ignore the lesser worlds...
The pop A worlds
6/36 TL average 13.5 (A Ports)
9/36 TL average 11.5 (B Ports)
11/36 TL Average 9.5 (C Ports)
9/36 TL average 7.5 (D & E ports)
1/36 TL average 3.5 (X ports)
Average person is on a TL 9-10 (9.625 average) world.
If we ignore worlds with X ports as "not part of imperial society", the average goes up to 9.9.
If we ignore E ports as well, we get 11.55... TL 12.

So, the average citizen in "Spacefaring Civilization" is TL 12.

 

[Quint]

When I see "ADM" I think Atomic Demolition Munition, aka "suitcase bomb". I do not think that is how you are using it. What is it the abbreviation for?

I repeat, governments do not like to spend money on the military. You appear to assume that you have an unlimited supply of "drone missiles". How much do they cost per missile? And if you have drone missiles, then you need drone operators, in addition to the crews firing the drone missiles. They need some form of equipment to control said drones. How much does the operators and the needed control equipment cost? And then there are the needed maintenance technicians, and a minor matter of troop training. Cost of equipment please?

I am also assuming that you have fusion plants in your grav vehicles. Anyone care to explain how you pack a fusion plant, all necessary shielding, and equipment to convert the energy generated by the fusion reaction to electricity to run your grav units and propulsion system for your vehicles? Or is this strictly Traveller "handwavium", in which case, why are you bothering with using fusion guns (by the way, how are you handing all of the radiation produced by the fusion reaction without frying the individual firing the fusion gun) and simply go to disintegrators and phasers? All of them would be equal in terms of "handwavium."

With respect to the number of troops for a planetary defense force, in war time, the maximum mobilization a country can make without destroying its economy is 10% of the population. That does assume wartime conditions. A World War 2 Division Slice, which comprised one division with all needed support troops in both the Theater of Operations and Zone of Interior was 60,000 men with about 17,000 of them being in the division and attached units. Note, those are all men in the Army supporting the combat unit. That does not include any civilian production forces making the equipment or growing the food for said troops. You might be able so shave that down some to 40,000, which is the divisional slice in the Theater of Operations, assuming that no troops are deployed at extended distances on the planet.

An air wing slice, for a basic 72 aircraft wing, averaging all combat types together, was 5,000 men in the Theater of Operations, with an average of 1300 being in the combat units, and the rest in support and supply roles. That does not make any allowance for units in the Zone of the Interior, acting to funnel the necessary supplies of fuel, ordnance, spare parts and aircraft, food, and assorted other stuff to the Theater of Operations. Note, the number are a lot worse now with the massive increase in electronics and the advent of the jet engine.

ADM = Air Drop Mortar ( see the link at: http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/...tical-drones-get-dirt-cheap-gps-guided-bombs/ )

No offense, but you are making a *lot* of assumptions about what I'm making assumptions about. The inherent assumptions that I'm making are based on the data as contained within and generated by "assumed setting" of (ostensibly) OTU Traveller - accepting that it is essentially balanced to some desirable degree, even though that is questionable on any number of levels and even though I'm departing from the OTU to make MTU.

So, I'm worried less about cost because I'm going to assume that if, say, for example, that Bk4 says that drone missiles have replaced artillery at TL12, then it is both economically and militarily feasible. I'm also going to assume, at least for the purposes of MTU, that the Imperial Army is equipped at the "best" of whatever its tech level is. If the OTU says that the "average planet" generates two battalions (or, actually, "two battalions worth" of troops) during wartime, then I'll run with it. Otherwise I might as well write my own game.

Traveller gives me lots and lots of verisimilitude, I'll use it until it makes utterly no sense or I have to decided between which version of the OTU I want to use. Like, for example, trying to reconcile the various different versions of the Imperial Navy TOE there are.

Again, I *am* assuming that in the future, if anything, the tail has the potential to go down in manpower size simply due to robotics and AI/Expert systems. But, I'm not so much concerned about this exactly because I'm happy to postulate a "shift in function" for some personnel in the same way POL as a supply class item would likely get replaced by Fissionables of some sort (and that the people on the TOE that would have handled POL and were trained appropriately now handle fissionables instead). I'm actually far more concerned about the loss of strength gradient because once I figure out what the actual fangs (combat troops) and brain (command structure) are (both of which includes some level of organic combat services support in the field) then I have to decide how long they are expected to fight for without being resupplied - then I can figure out what sort of tonnage is needed to move them and what form it comes in.

In fact, while the tooth-to-tail ratio for infantry (at least) has declined (fewer combat troops) since WW2 the overall percentage of troops in operational units has remained at roughly a third of all troops - because more support has been organically embedded within operational units. Again, I'm not exactly worried about all of that "extra" stuff back at the regimental depot (or Imperial training facilities, or supply depots, or R&D facilities) because I'm trying to get a handle on deployed "boots on the ground" (combat, HQ/Admin, life support/medical, & logistics).

Oh, and I would assume that the combat armor (or battledress) at TL12+ takes care of the rads from the plasma (or fusion) guns. That plus anti-rad drugs.

D.

 

[Quint]

TL12 is "average stellar" according to the tech level tables. Several places note that it's the average imperial TL, as well. Note that the average imperial citizen is from a Pop A world. 10x as many people as Pop 9's, and pop 9s are only 2x as common...

<MATHS SNIPPED>

So, the average citizen in "Spacefaring Civilization" is TL 12.

Thank you!

Now, it is late, so I might not be braining as well as I would like, but this is an average tech level based on population distribution not on planetary distribution. I am as well acquainted with the very "not-rolled by the rules" nature of the Spinward Marches (or the SolRim IIRC). But in an ostensibly randomly rolled sector of space (or a randomly rolled MTU Imperial setting) I would expect to see a sprinkling of high population worlds with decent starports that result in the higher tech level. Alternately, they could be much smaller in size with bimodal atmosphere ranges, plus very high or the same range of low populations, and the same starports. Both results end up suggesting a reason for the TL15-equipped IMC - weird atmospheres and high populations with good starports give a good reason for the IMC "hammer" that can operate in areas where the IA ProFors are at a disadvantage due to numbers or environment.

Nobody is crazy enough to want to conquer a high population, average-to-high tech level world - but seizing the starport or doing a decapitating strike? That the job of the Imperial Marines. But all of those "average" worlds (by planetary distribution, not population), that's the perfect job for the IA.

Thank you again.

D.

 

[Timerover51]

Oh, and I would assume that the combat armor (or battledress) at TL12+ takes care of the rads from the plasma (or fusion) guns. That plus anti-rad drugs.

Okay, I will sign off at this point. Have fun.

 

[McPerth]

Meson artillery destroys an area of land, any troop unit in that blast area is dead - so dispersement is key.
Computer controlled laser and fusion guns, even gauss guns, can track and fire way faster than human reaction times. So concealment and obfuscation are also key - if you are seen you are dead.

Oh, and I would assume that the combat armor (or battledress) at TL12+ takes care of the rads from the plasma (or fusion) guns. That plus anti-rad drugs.

I assume that rad delivering weaponry and mesons are considered MDW, and moslty forbidden by Imperial Rules of War (as nukes are), as one of their main raison d'être is to precisely avoid thik kind wanton destruction and colateral damages.

They will at most be used in what mercenaries call Bad War, or in barren planet wars (if there's any reason for them) but most of the engagements military units engage in OTU are not such kind of wars, and even there, there's no evidence (AFAIK) in canon of planets being attacked in FFW or Solomani Wars to have been so ravaged (in Rebellion they were, mostly in the Black War times, hence the Hard Times)

 

[Reban]

See the Canon requirements for time to recharge battery packs.

[EDIT] Frustratingly I can't find the CT reference, but T5 says power cells can be plugged into a vehicle and recharged in half a day. Likewise PGMPs power packs can be "refueled" presumably with hydrogen. I'd assume this could be done at a relatively low level logistics platoon or company?

Try to run airmobile operations in mountainous areas, heavy jungle or forest, during bad weather (rain, snow, sleet, dense fog), or areas of high winds. Your operational non-combat losses start to accumulate very quickly.

You didn't read what I wrote: like air mobile operations. At high TLs that means Grav Mobile operations

Canon says grav vehicles are affected by high winds true, but mountai, forest or jungle shouldn't present undue obstacles to movement. Sensors at high TLs should be able to cope with adverse weather or hostile environments.

Remember that anything in orbit keeps moving, it does not sit over one place unless in geosynchronous orbit. How many weapons do you plan to have in orbit, aside from the time lag involved in getting something from orbit to the target area, along with this problems of re-entry.

As for other side of the planet, how long is your time lag from request for fire support to impact, along with how accurate is your ICBM, and then there is this minor item called, HOW MUCH DOES THIS THING COST FOR ONE SHOT?

As you will still be using radio-based communications, I fail to see why any improvement should be anticipated.

Just one weapon. Meson support artillery. Either planetside or aboard ship. Time lag should only be minutes if you have orbital superiority and comm sats deployed. Military comms should be able to process and prioritize firemission requests, matching the available units to the type and location of the target.

And I'm not using radio based comms exclusively, I'm using a comms network for voice and data over cell, radio, laser, maser and meson moderated by smart software but you're assumptions won out and made you leave the discussion so this reply is for the open minded readers.

 

[Quint]

I assume that rad delivering weaponry and mesons are considered MDW, and moslty forbidden by Imperial Rules of War (as nukes are), as one of their main raison d'être is to precisely avoid thik kind wanton destruction and colateral damages.

They will at most be used in what mercenaries call Bad War, or in barren planet wars (if there's any reason for them) but most of the engagements military units engage in OTU are not such kind of wars, and even there, there's no evidence (AFAIK) in canon of planets being attacked in FFW or Solomani Wars to have been so ravaged (in Rebellion they were, mostly in the Black War times, hence the Hard Times)

I thought he was referring to the Mongoose rule that HEW's dump rads every time you shoot them (a bit of "hard science" and a way to limit PC use) - and was referencing the other rule(s) which note the rad protection that vacc suits/combat armor/etc. give you.

But your point is equally as valid - and yes, that's why I wouldn't tend to arm the IA with meson weaponry (while the IMC would be). Now, canonically, I think the IA was armed with that sort of thing, but I also agree that the canon doesn't really support the sort of radioactive blasted heath that warfare with such weapons would involve.

D.