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Replenish life support on a primitive planet

Is it possible to replenish life support without a starport? Depending on the planet, it should be obvious whether it is possible to gather food and water, but what about the rest? Air? How would you rule this, for example when after a misjump the ship is a few jumps away from the next starport.
 
The first question I have is does the ship involved have fuel processors? If so, I would rule that cracking water for hydrogen would also allow gathering oxygen for the air supply, though the engineer would have to make a roll to ensure o2 is being stored. Otherwise you have single atom oxygen which I'd guess is bad for life support.

My 0.2 Creds worth.
 
Fuel processor is necessary, sure. Replacement scrubbers for the atmosphere recycler, or at least a way to clean them, should be high on the list as well.
 
If you're planning to head through the wilds, I'd expect a higher percentage of cargo to be ship's repair parts.

As long as there are parts to fix things, and extra chemicals for the life support system (like amines for CO2 removal), and there's a nitrogen-oxygen atmosphere, within a month's travel, there should be no issues even with a misjump. Longer term though, there would be more issues, not unlike the atmospheric issues from the Scout/Courier mentioned in adventure 1.
 
A standard air lock should have the necessary compressor, and allow harvesting free oxygen.

Electrolysing water to get H₂ and O₂ is not especially complex.

Filters should be reusable in an emergency.

The ship should have complete tech specifications for any high tech consumables, to allow emergency remanufacturing or substitution.


Traveller starships are on their own for weeks, and have to be robust and reparable.
 
A standard air lock should have the necessary compressor, and allow harvesting free oxygen.

Electrolysing water to get H₂ and O₂ is not especially complex.

Filters should be reusable in an emergency.

The ship should have complete tech specifications for any high tech consumables, to allow emergency remanufacturing or substitution.


Traveller starships are on their own for weeks, and have to be robust and reparable.

Scrubbing CO2 is the hard part. In all seriousness, it's the part that even the subs still have issues with.

The lithium-cycle CO/CO2 scrubbing is the simplest - but uses a reversible chemical reaction, and reversing it involves high heat at pressure to force the reversal...

A liquefaction process is more sustainable, but problematic, too. In which, you render the atmosphere cryogenic, and physically filter the CO2 ice out of the liquid... And it generates loads of waste heat.
N2 63°K to 77°K
O2 54.36°K to 90.19°K at 101.325 kPa
CO2 194.7° K at 1 atm
Water 273.15°K at 1 Atm
So the scrub works like this:
  • Chill to about 250°K, with hydrophobic walls and an ice conveyor of hydrophobic and nucleogenic surface. (other side of that wall is the water - mostly - being liquified for purge, but some reintroduced.
  • Chill to around 150°K, scrape the dry ice out.
  • reheat to about 290°, and let pick up water from a spray (with a regulatory patch of hydrophilic material down-path)
 
Scrubbing CO2 is the hard part. In all seriousness, it's the part that even the subs still have issues with.

I was just wondering about that. If you can easily break off the carbon you could use it in the Ship's 3D printer for carbon fiber parts. And you get your O2 back.
 
If you have extra water for the process aboard, you can mix the CO2 with Calcium and get CaCO3 (hard water scale) with hydrogen as a byproduct. So, if you had a fuel processing plant and were using water to get hydrogen, adding a CO2 scrubber to produce "ring around the tub" so to speak wouldn't be too hard...
 
Traveller ships deal with cryogenic hydrogen as a matter of routine, so the slower method Aramis describes is probably within reach for most ships. The issue will be speed of adaptability. If a ship needs to change its gas mix in a hurry, having purification systems in the tanks will be vitally important. A slower gas mix change can probably be done by any ship with access to the right feedstock gases and enough patience.

It isn't, in my opinion, that fuel purification systems add much to what a ship can do with the cryogenic fuel (and thus atmospheric feedstock) it carries, but that is alters the ease with which it does those things. Dedicating space to the plumbing of a fuel purification "plant" makes thermal fractionation, gravitational distilling, and easily controllable filtration pump-arounds happen in hours. A ship with "just tanks" can do these things, but much more slowly. The temperature and flow control of the default fuel handling system is imprecise enough that fractionation and filtering must be done with a certain amount of empty tank volume to work with and be carried out with tricks and tweaks of sub-tank temperature gradients. The Engineer has to play the fuel tankage and piping like a gigantic pipe organ, and the performance will vary with every ocean, iceball, or gas giant source of unrefined fuel stocks. Since most Engineers have better things to do with their their time, they'll tell any ship owner who cares to listen to give up the tonnage and install dedicated refinery hardware, or just buy refined fuel.
 
Thanks!

So assume a smallish civilian craft (it has a fuel processor), with a built-in CO2 scrubber that works with lithium hydroxide. On a starport, the 2,000 Cr per passenger for life support will mostly be to replace the lithium hydroxide, along with a few wear parts, seals, gaskets and so on.

If such a ship ends up in a system without a starport, how easy would it be for the engineer to replace the lithium hydroxide on his own?
Can it (or a substitute chemical) be found in nature or easily produced with the stuff on board?
At what TL can a non-starfaring civilization provide it? In our world, I suppose you could simply get it at a pharmacy?
 
[ . . . ]
If such a ship ends up in a system without a starport, how easy would it be for the engineer to replace the lithium hydroxide on his own?
Can it (or a substitute chemical) be found in nature or easily produced with the stuff on board?
At what TL can a non-starfaring civilization provide it? In our world, I suppose you could simply get it at a pharmacy?

If you go full John Plant (the Primitive Technology guy) you could make a mixture of NaOH and KOH from wood ash and probably bodge together something that would let you refine it to sufficient purity to use as an emergency CO2 scrubbing mix. This mix might be impure enough to be somewhat inefficient and you may need to replace it more frequently, but it could be enough to get you home.

Industrial production of LiOH, NaOH or KOH should be feasible from about TL3 onwards.
 
Traveller ships deal with cryogenic hydrogen as a matter of routine, so the slower method Aramis describes is probably within reach for most ships. The issue will be speed of adaptability. If a ship needs to change its gas mix in a hurry, having purification systems in the tanks will be vitally important. A slower gas mix change can probably be done by any ship with access to the right feedstock gases and enough patience.

It isn't, in my opinion, that fuel purification systems add much to what a ship can do with the cryogenic fuel (and thus atmospheric feedstock) it carries, but that is alters the ease with which it does those things. Dedicating space to the plumbing of a fuel purification "plant" makes thermal fractionation, gravitational distilling, and easily controllable filtration pump-arounds happen in hours. A ship with "just tanks" can do these things, but much more slowly. The temperature and flow control of the default fuel handling system is imprecise enough that fractionation and filtering must be done with a certain amount of empty tank volume to work with and be carried out with tricks and tweaks of sub-tank temperature gradients. The Engineer has to play the fuel tankage and piping like a gigantic pipe organ, and the performance will vary with every ocean, iceball, or gas giant source of unrefined fuel stocks. Since most Engineers have better things to do with their their time, they'll tell any ship owner who cares to listen to give up the tonnage and install dedicated refinery hardware, or just buy refined fuel.


We know from CT TCS that ships refuel in one pass in 7 turns. Since the fuel has to fit into the tanks in that period and there is no requirement for having excess unrefined fuel tankage, that means the fuel refiners are realtime processors.
 
Another low tech way would be to have a container of quick lime (this is low tech as you can go since the Romans knew how to make it) and force the CO2 through it. That could be done as easily as passing the atmosphere of the ship through the processor filled with a slurry of quick lime. Heating and applying an electrical charge will split the water in the slurry giving off hydrogen as a byproduct while the CO2 is converted to limestone (CaCO3).

Very simple, the catalyst material would be available almost anywhere, even an asteroid belt. Making quick lime only requires heating limestone until it is dehydrated and the CO2 is off gassed.
It would be available at the equivalent of a hardware store on anything down to a TL4 world that uses cement and masonry for construction.
 
We know from CT TCS that ships refuel in one pass in 7 turns. Since the fuel has to fit into the tanks in that period and there is no requirement for having excess unrefined fuel tankage, that means the fuel refiners are realtime processors.

I believe TCS is no longer canon. Aramis is this correct or is my memory faulty in another area?
 
We know from CT TCS that ships refuel in one pass in 7 turns. Since the fuel has to fit into the tanks in that period and there is no requirement for having excess unrefined fuel tankage, that means the fuel refiners are realtime processors.

If you are dipping from proper sources in the first place, the impurities are a tiny but significant (from the POV of a clean J-Drive burn) fraction of what is taken in. Venting or storing them is not going to take much space. Dipping methane is going to be trickier because one wrong plumbing mistake and you'll need a chisel and coal shovel to clear the system.

Fuel purification rates vary considerably from edition to edition. My argument is that any ship can *eventually* process a fuel load from most sources, but a purification system makes it much faster, "realtime" or not-quite. As a side effect, the purification plant plumbing makes breathing mix adjustments in the rest of the ship trivial.

The need for empty tankage I mentioned was for ships that *don't* have dedicated purification plumbing, as they have to do their process filtering and fractionation on a whole tank basis, using the slosh, headspace, and pump fluid dynamics in out-of-spec ways.
 
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So assume a smallish civilian craft (it has a fuel processor), with a built-in CO2 scrubber that works with lithium hydroxide. On a starport, the 2,000 Cr per passenger for life support will mostly be to replace the lithium hydroxide, along with a few wear parts, seals, gaskets and so on.

If such a ship ends up in a system without a starport, how easy would it be for the engineer to replace the lithium hydroxide on his own?
Can it (or a substitute chemical) be found in nature or easily produced with the stuff on board?
At what TL can a non-starfaring civilization provide it? In our world, I suppose you could simply get it at a pharmacy?

Since a starport is required to perform life support maintenance, this is best handled via role-playing.

In other words, you can't just allow it -- IF it's important to the game -- any more than you can allow the engineer to field-strip and rebuild the jump drive using only a socket wrench set and duct tape, without some serious RP'ing going on.

In other words, this class of problem falls under two types:

(1) it's not germane to the game, in which case just let it slide.

(2) it IS germane to the game, in which case the players have to do some followup and jury-rig something together.

It almost doesn't matter WHAT they end up trying out, as long as it sounds reasonable. The point is, either you're using life support as an obstacle to be problem-solved in the course of their adventure, or else it really doesn't matter ("oh look, spare unobtanium-gridded megafilters!").

Your mileage may vary.
 
Since a starport is required to perform life support maintenance, this is best handled via role-playing.
But I need to know what to roleplay. For me, Traveller is a science fiction game, and where setting elements can be grounded in reality, I'd prefer to do so.

This thread has been a great help so far!
 
I'd expect any starship to have a sort of damage control locker on board with emergency stuff to include, CO2 absorbent just in case things like life support breaks down and the engineer(s) can't fix it.

That's another way a crew could remove it in a pinch. Buy a few boxes of the stuff and scatter it here and there in the ship to soak up the CO2.
 
I could buy that. Sort of a reverse candle.

Tangentially, I'd imagine the spill control kits available at TL12+ would be interesting.
 
Scrubbing CO2 is the hard part. In all seriousness, it's the part that even the subs still have issues with.
I know nothing of this chemistry, but reading wiki it seems that energy is the limiting factor. Luckily Traveller ships have plenty of power.

Using a reversible process very little of the reaction base would be consumed.
 
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