Revolvers vs. Autopistols

[Bishop]

In just about every version of the game, revolvers get the short end of the stick in comparison to autopistols. Why would anyone choose to carry one?

IRL revolvers tend to be more accurate out-of-the-box than autoloaders, and tend to handle more powerful ammunition. This is not reflected in TRAV. I would expect to see a significantly enhanced range/accuracy & damage/penetration, as the trade-off for capacity, and reload rate.

This inquiring mind would like to know...

Thomas

 

[Tom Schoene]

Originally posted by Bishop:
In just about every version of the game, revolvers get the short end of the stick in comparison to autopistols. Why would anyone choose to carry one?

IRL revolvers tend to be more accurate out-of-the-box than autoloaders, and tend to handle more powerful ammunition. This is not reflected in TRAV. I would expect to see a significantly enhanced range/accuracy & damage/penetration, as the trade-off for capacity, and reload rate.

This inquiring mind would like to know...

Thomas

I don't think those generalizations are really terribly accurate, to be honest.

Most pistols, auto or revolver, are capable fo more accuracy than most shooters can produce, particularly in combat. To the extent that there is a difference, it's really not significant at the game's level of detail.

As to power levels, there's far less difference than there once was. It used to be that only revolvers came in really powerful cartidges like .44 Magnum, but there are modern pistols all across the power spectrum. A Desert Eagle in .50 AE is a fair match to the most powerful revolvers, and equally awkward in combat. Even in useful calibers, autopistols have leveled the playing ground, with new rounds like the 10mm, .40S&W, and .357 SIG being quite competative with the old standbys like .357 Magnum.

I think it's worth noting that autos are rapidly squeezing out revolvers in almost all police and military applications. Ten years ago, gun mags were filled with "revolver vs. Auto" articles. Today, the auto seems to have largely won that debate.

 

[Rodina]

I prefer revolvers for entire aesthetic reasons both in reality and IMTU. Unless I'm running a merc character, I chose weapons for style more than for stopping power.

 

[Simon Jester]

The primary advantage revolvers have over autoloaders (almost the _only_ advantage) is that revolvers won't jam, and in the case of double-action, if the round misfires, you can just pull the trigger again, instead of having to rack the slide to clear the bad round.

Just my Cr 0.02.

Simon Jester

 

[DrSkull]

And if you're a criminal, revolvers don't leave tell-tale shell casings all over the floor.

 

[gardclan]

In general both pistols have marked advantages over each other, so utility depends largely on the application.

It used to be true that revolvers (which have inherrently stronger frames and chambers than older automatics) could carry more powerful ammunition than their self load comrades. But a cursory glance at the ballistics tables will show that the .45ACP has always been very similar to the .44 magnum... and predates the .44 by several decades! (The .45 being developed around the turn of the century, and first issued to US troops circa 1910-11.)

Revolvers have a few disadvantages as well. While it is true that revolvers can handle larger propellant charges, much of the discharge is wasted at the cylinder to barrel interface. Gas checks have been developed to counter this, but are woefully inadequate. Thus, revolver barrels longer than 6" tend to actually SLOW the round down... but do tend to increase the accuracy of the round and the sight radius.

Automatics on the other hand usually have a very good chamber seal and can transfer most of their energy to the projectile. This means that the same cartridge fired from both weapons will produce faster muzzle velocities from the automatic. Also, longer barrels on automatics will tend to produce higher muzzle velocities.

Automatics are limited however in the types of rounds that they can accept. Due to the common feed mechanisms, leaded tip and hollow point rounds tend to jam rather messily in automatics... but work just fine in revolvers. The short jacketed round was developed, in part, to counter this problem. IMHO it was a poor fix at best.

Most automatics in more common calibers also have a much higher magazine capacity than a revolver can boast. The result of this is that they can sustain longer action in a fight. Of course, the tendancy with lighter calibers is to "double tap" most targets to ensure that they "stay down".

Having trained with the M1911A1 (.45ACP) in the Army, I can tell you that the weapon is far more accurate than its reputation would suggest.

So, I guess it boils down to preference. As for weapon stats, a case can be made either way. I would imagine that revolvers made in a high tech society might have superior gas checks to fix the problem of cylinder blow-by... or use massively overpowered rounds to compensate.

 

[Vargas]

Can't use a silencer with a revolver

 

[Bishop]

So then,

If autopistols are so much better than revolvers, (as reflected in the game mechanics) why do the imperial marines carry revolvers? <seems kind of stupid to me>

 

[far-trader]

My .02 crimps in the matter boils down to style as also noted by Rodina above, because this is after all an RPG. For me it's more a matter of what my character 'likes' than munchkining the best firepower, though I am guilty of that on occassion too There are times I wish a GM would use some kind of mechanisim to represent jamming, duds, and such which would go a small ways to balancing the field for revolvers in play.

In a 'real' application the revolver should be enough for self protection so unless the PC is a law enforcement or military type (or, and I use the term in it's most flattering context, a 'gun nut') it's out of character to have more than a revolver (for pistols, long guns are similar in the civilian/military roles).

Perhaps what is needed is a bit of a fudge in the Law Levels that puts 'civilian' weapons (individually loading revolvers, shotguns and rifles) at law level 5 (concealed and open carry permitted) and law level 6 (open possession prohibited) and the more 'military' weapons (semi-auto pistols, rifles and shotguns) at law level 4 (concealed and open carry permitted) and drop the SMG into the 'strcit military nature' category.

As far as leaving behind spent shell casings I seem to recall an attachement to capture said casings as they are ejected. Or if that's a real worry for you just go with (perfected in the future, right?) caseless ammo, but remember the 'witnesses' (people, cameras, data recorders, etc.) are everywhere when Law Level plus Tech Level equals or exceeds 10 (IMTU anyway YMMV).

Anywho just some off the cuff thoughts.

Dan "far-trader" Burns

still looking for 'the' definitive .sig file

 

[gardclan]

Originally posted by Bishop:
So then,

If autopistols are so much better than revolvers, (as reflected in the game mechanics) why do the imperial marines carry revolvers? <seems kind of stupid to me>

This was probably some style issue for the original game. I can't see TL15 Imperial Marines carying a revolver on duty either. (And I noted TA1 claimed that the marines use gauss pistols.)

However, revolvers are reliable, low tech, inexpensive, easy to maintain, easy to use, and reliable. They will fire just about any type of ammo that you can fit to their cylinders. AND they will fire while crusted with mud and rust. I could see that sort of weapon endearing itself to the mindset of former marines in need of personal protection.

Originally posted by Vargas:
Can't use a silencer with a revolver;

Well, actually you can... it just doesn't work very well.

Originally posted by Far-Trader:
...I wish a GM would use some kind of mechanisim to represent jamming, duds, and such which would go a small ways to balancing the field for revolvers in play.

That will be easy enough to do with D20... just apply a critical failure rule, with a range for the weapon. Say "1" for most weapons... "1-2" for poorer models. Increase the threat range by 1 for extra bad stuff (like poor ammo). Handle this exactly as a normal crit, except in reverse.

Its a thought anyway.

 

[daryen]

Originally posted by DrSkull:
And if you're a criminal, revolvers don't leave tell-tale shell casings all over the floor.

It was always my understanding that all Traveller guns used caseless ammo. I could be wrong, but that's how I remember it.

 

[Bishop]

I read in one of the fiction pieces on the TRAV site that the heroine carried a revolver with heap rounds. This may have well been a revolver snub pistol or some artistic license on the part of the author. Being able to use special ammunition (that might do extra damage or penetrate armor better) could go along way toward making the revolver worth carrying.

Thoughts?

 

[StrikerFan]

Originally posted by Bishop:
I read in one of the fiction pieces on the TRAV site that the heroine carried a revolver with heap rounds. This may have well been a revolver snub pistol or some artistic license on the part of the author. Being able to use special ammunition (that might do extra damage or penetrate armor better) could go along way toward making the revolver worth carrying.

Thoughts?

The auto-snub could carry the same rounds, and it wouldn't waste much of the rounds energy bridging the gap between the cylinder and the barrel. The revolver's advantage is that it's available at lower TLs than the autopistol, but that's about the list of it's advantages. The only other one that I can think of is that in the case of carrying multiple types of ammunition LOADED, the revolver would allow the character to choose between them by unlocking and rotating the cylinder. In an autopistol, you'd have to eject the magazine and replace it with a magazine of what you wanted (which would be slower, but not necessarily a lot slower).

StrikerFan

 

[Secrect Cow Level]

In CT the negative "to hit" die modifers for medium and long ranges are one less than the DMs for automatic pistols (and are even better when compaired to body pistols). In this case, revolvers are given a slight edge over automatics.

 

[Bishop]

Originally posted by Secrect Cow Level:
In CT the negative "to hit" die modifers for medium and long ranges are one less than the DMs for automatic pistols (and are even better when compaired to body pistols). In this case, revolvers are given a slight edge over automatics.

Thanks! I'd forgotten that. Does anyone know if there will there be something similar in T20? (Like a longer range increment for revolvers)

 

[PapaGolfWhiskey]

Hi. newbie here and a bit of 'gun nut' myself I'd like to weigh in on this topic. (it caught my eye right off). He's my take on the whole Revolvers vs. Automatics issue, which you might want to think about when deciding ICly what sort of firepower your character thinks is appropriate.

Generally speaking: (there are always exceptions and devilish details)

Revolvers (compared to automatics) are: simpler to operate and maintain, easier to gain competancy shooting, more easily customized to varying sizes and shapes of hands, more catholic in ammunition choices, withstand neglect better.

Self Loading Pistols (compared to Revovers) are: More compact and space/weight efficient, Easier to MASTER, simpler to manufacture, Can carry more ammunition and reload more quickly, withstand ABUSE better.

Revolvers are a better choice for someone who doesn't wish to spend a lot of time maintaining their firearm skills and infact tends to leave their firearm collecting dust against an unexpected and dire need.

Automatics are the tool of the person who maintains and uses his pistols with the care and frequency that a professional mechanic uses his wrenches.

IMO.

GARF

ps. The above is a necessarily simplified precis. I didn't want to lecture you at length. I hope this helps non-firearm savvy players make more... Icly interesting choices. I invite any firearm savvy persons who disagree with me to discuss the issue. Also, I'd be glad to further express my opinions on the subject in response to any questions anyone may have.

With one caveat: they are my opinions. I like to think they are backed up by my readings and personal experience on the subject but said experience is hardly what I would call expert.

 

[Uncle Bob]

Autos vs Revolvers

There isn't much to choose between revolvers and automatics, in power, accuracy, and reliability.

Automatics rarely jam these days, maybe one round in a thousand. Revolvers are even more reliable but are not jam-proof. They are subject to two unique failues modes, which may be rare, but I've seen them both. And both not only fail to fire, but like an automatic they have to be cleared before the next round can be fired.

1) Unseated bullets. The back-and-forth motion of a recoiling automatic smacks the nose of the bullet with the front of the magazine. In a revolver the cartridge recoils with the gun but the bullet tends to pull away. If the bullet is not firmly crimped it can pull out far enough to keep the cylinder from turning.

2) I have a Ruger Security-six in my bureau that used to belong to my father. The timing of the cylinder rotation is off, so after every shot you have to wiggle the cylinder to re-engage the mechanism.

 

[Shadow Bear]

The .45 APC in my side arm of choice. Lots of stopping power, easy loading and with the Colt 1911A you can safely carry one in the tube.

High caliber revolvers tend to be harder to control due to excessive recoil and low caliber suffer from the same lack of power that low caliber autos do.

Reloading autos is a simple matter of exchanging magazines.

Some high caliber wheel guns are smaller and lighter than the big autos and are easier to conceal. Magnum revolvers are great if you want to stop a truck but I would choose something a bit heavier than a hand gun for that. I'll stick with my 1911A to take down man sized targets in a hurry.

 

[gardclan]

Originally posted by Shadow Bear:
The .45 APC in my side arm of choice. Lots of stopping power, easy loading and with the Colt 1911A you can safely carry one in the tube.

<snip>

I'll stick with my 1911A to take down man sized targets in a hurry.

Agreed. Not only that, but the M1911A1 can be field stripped using no special tools, and a simple pocket knife will let you get it down to depot level for cleaning and service. Jams are easilly cleared, and the seven rounds in the clip are usually more than enough for self defense.

BTW, the 230gr ball load packs just about as much punch as a .44magnum (check the ballistics charts for most ammo makers...). Very versitile weapon IMHO.

Originally posted by Garf:
I invite any firearm savvy persons who disagree with me to discuss the issue. Also, I'd be glad to further express my opinions on the subject in response to any questions anyone may have..

No, you pretty much hit the nail squarely on the head.

There are also legal considerations. For example, in Pennsylvania (where I live), it is legal to hunt most game with a handgun... as long as its a revolver. This leads many people (whom have concealed carry permits) to choose a revolver for self defense because they can also hunt with it. Most of these people would prefer an automatic, but handguns are expensive and they can only afford one.

Most of these diferences are rather subtle. Reflecting these in a game can be difficult without excessively overloading the rules with tables and modifiers.

 

[Tom Schoene]

Originally posted by Bishop:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Secrect Cow Level:
In CT the negative "to hit" die modifers for medium and long ranges are one less than the DMs for automatic pistols (and are even better when compaired to body pistols). In this case, revolvers are given a slight edge over automatics.

Thanks! I'd forgotten that. Does anyone know if there will there be something similar in T20? (Like a longer range increment for revolvers)</font>[/QUOTE]Actually, it looks like the opposite. In Traveller's Aide #1, there are a couple of examples of revolvers and autopistols with the same damage values (i.e. similar anmmunition) The T20 stats give the revolvers either the same or somewhat less range. They are also somewhat less expensive, but usually a bit heavier.

The CT stats for the same weapons are a bit less consistent (for ex: a standard revolver does better at medium & long range than a standard autopistol, but a heavy revolver does worse than a heavy autopistol at the same ranges.)