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Revolvers vs. Autopistols

Don't get me going about real world legalities. In the early nineties my nation enacted draconian new laws that, to put it in Traveller terms, redefined most Revolvers and Autopistols as 'body pistols' (somehow my 4 inch .38 smith and wesson suddenly occupied the same legal ground as a walther ppk or .22 beretta.) putting over half the existing handguns on the market on the prohibited list.

...and that was just the tip of the iceberg.

going by the Traveller Weopans prohibitions scale I think Canada occupies something like law level 9. (higher if you take blades into account, somewhat lower depending on how you define prohibited).

but that and the comments on price DO raise a couple of significant points.

In the states, judging from the articles in gun magasines, In the late eighties early nineties, 9mm autopistols with increasingly large magasine capacities were the trend. It was legalities that made revolvers popular again.

In this case two different legal trends, one an increase in prohibition of firearms based on appearances. (nasty black plastic was out, pistol grips on rifles and other accessories that made rifles -Look Like- assualt rifles were out, now magasines were limited to 10 rounds each). At the same time many states were issueing increasingly liberal concealed carry permit laws.

As a result, compact, large calibre firearms (many of the revolvers) became the NEW trend for the end of the millenium.

There was also a nostalgic trend for replicas. (aparantly the hot new shooting sport was "coybow action shooting") The old side gate loading six shooter was coming out in a wide variety of variations. From 'exact' replicas complete with their 100 year old flaws and frailities to ones made with the most modern materials whose robust designs allowed them to fire the most potent of hand punishing pistol rounds (still very bland when compared to even anemic rifle rounds but that's another debate)

Anyhow. My point is that in traveller there may be collective and individual cultural reasons why revolvers are still popular. In T4 the 'magnum revolver' was a mark of nobility and a popular dueling weopan. Other posters here have suggested that gun laws in the game (just as in real life) may make Revolvers easy to legally own.

The other point is cost.

in my own handgun collection, between generally comparable handguns (similar calibre's age, sentimental value), Revolvers tended to be sixty to fifty percent of the price of autopistols. In the PDF teaser for T20 a revolver is seventy-five percent.

some more reasons why your character might want to own a revolver over an autopistol.

-maybe it's his grandaddy's gun.
-maybe it's a replica of a gun that has cultural significance or legendary appeal to the character.
(ie like a Colt Peacemaker might a appeal to a cowboy afficiando. Or the way an Inglis made Browning Hi-power tweaks my own patriotic nerve)

unless we pressure the makers of the game to just create bland listings of Gun, bigger gun, biggest gun. there will be selections availeble whose game mechanics advantage is dubious at best. That's where role playing comes into play. sometimes, just like us real world humans, RPG characters make less than optimal choices for poorly or even un- calculated reasons. That's what makes them FUN.


GAh... I do go on. sorry. Traveller + Guns, bad combination for garf's own rationality buttons.

Thanks for your patience
GARF
 
Originally posted by Darth Sillyus:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Shadow Bear:
The .45 APC in my side arm of choice. Lots of stopping power, easy loading and with the Colt 1911A you can safely carry one in the tube.

<snip>

I'll stick with my 1911A to take down man sized targets in a hurry.
Agreed. Not only that, but the M1911A1 can be field stripped using no special tools, and a simple pocket knife will let you get it down to depot level for cleaning and service. Jams are easilly cleared, and the seven rounds in the clip are usually more than enough for self defense.

</font>[/QUOTE]Heh. The .45 was Brownings rough draft for his posthumous masterpeice The Fabrique Nationale Grande-Puisance GP-35 (AKA the Browning Hi-power) Arguably, as the first high capacity 9mm parabellum pistol, the template for Traveller's Autopistol.

my own GP-35 was one made under licence during WW11 by an Canadian washing machine and kitchen stove manufacturer. (INGLIS) The combination of functionality and patriotic appeal really worked for me until I gave up my entire collection.

Garf.
 
Originally posted by Rodina:
I prefer revolvers for entire aesthetic reasons both in reality and IMTU. Unless I'm running a merc character, I chose weapons for style more than for stopping power.
In CT rules, revolvers required less dx for positive modifier.

I agree with the style comment. Big, magnum revolvers were the weapons of choice amoung Imperial Nobles of Year 0. It's a nice historic flair.

It's also an ease of use issue. Professional military types will take the time to disassemble, clean and maintain semi-autos. Others probably prefer to run an oily rag through the barrel and cylinders every now and then.
 
Originally posted by daryen:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by DrSkull:
And if you're a criminal, revolvers don't leave tell-tale shell casings all over the floor.
It was always my understanding that all Traveller guns used caseless ammo. I could be wrong, but that's how I remember it.</font>[/QUOTE]In MTU, reliable caseless show up at TL9. Most weapons players use are caseless & use prepackaged magazines (autopistols, carbines, rifles). Then there are the gauss & laser weapon fans. :)

Shotguns and revolvers don't use caseless rounds.
The brass is part of what makes revolvers cool. :)
 
Originally posted by Bishop:
So then,

If autopistols are so much better than revolvers, (as reflected in the game mechanics) why do the imperial marines carry revolvers? <seems kind of stupid to me>
I thought Imperial Marines carried Gauss weapons.
 
Originally posted by eclipse:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Bishop:
why do the imperial marines carry revolvers? <seems kind of stupid to me>
I thought Imperial Marines carried Gauss weapons.</font>[/QUOTE]In the T20 version, they certainly do. TA#1 has a long-barrel Marine Gauss Pistol (as distinct from the Navy short-barrel version).
 
Originally posted by eclipse:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Bishop:
So then,

If autopistols are so much better than revolvers, (as reflected in the game mechanics) why do the imperial marines carry revolvers? <seems kind of stupid to me>
I thought Imperial Marines carried Gauss weapons.</font>[/QUOTE]IIRC in CT marines got revolver and cutlass skills.

 
I'm certain you are right about cutlass and probably about revolver too.

in CT each fire arm or blade was it's own skill Unlike the cascade skills in The Traveller Book or MT.
 
Originally posted by Garf:
Heh. The .45 was Brownings rough draft for his posthumous masterpeice The Fabrique Nationale Grande-Puisance GP-35 (AKA the Browning Hi-power) Arguably, as the first high capacity 9mm parabellum pistol, the template for Traveller's Autopistol.Garf.
I've always been impressed with Browning's work, and I'm rather pleased that Uncle Sam decided to use his design. I've never had the pleasure of handling a GP-35, but if it's anything like the "colt" I could see myself becoming rather fond of it rather quickly.
 
Originally posted by Darth Sillyus:
BTW, the 230gr ball load packs just about as much punch as a .44magnum (check the ballistics charts for most ammo makers...). Very versitile weapon IMHO.
[/QB]
45 ACP( aka 11.43x23mm),
230 gr FMJ @ 850 fps, >>500 J
44 Magum(AKA 11x33mm)
240 gr JHP @ 1400 fps >>1420 J

Nearly three times the muzzle energy. I grant you that the 45 ACP does almost as well against people targets as the 44 magnum, but you can't tell that from the ballistics.
 
Maybe the revolver is a good sidearm for ship/starport security, when wearing it openly acts as a deterrent and taking part in an extended firefight is unlikely (except when the PC's get there).
 
I figure the revolver has two possible uses:

1) Symbolic. Analogous to a 21st Century Army Officer carrying a saber.

2) Sporting. A limited ammo capacity and the inability to silence are not significant drawback and may be considered to be more sporting. Also the same design can easily be made in a variety of calibers to suit personal idiosyncraies.
Most probably 8-10mm medium game and 11-13mm big game rounds, as autos are more accurate for target shooting.
 
Originally posted by Uncle Bob:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Darth Sillyus:
BTW, the 230gr ball load packs just about as much punch as a .44magnum (check the ballistics charts for most ammo makers...). Very versitile weapon IMHO.
45 ACP( aka 11.43x23mm),
230 gr FMJ @ 850 fps, >>500 J
44 Magum(AKA 11x33mm)
240 gr JHP @ 1400 fps >>1420 J

Nearly three times the muzzle energy. I grant you that the 45 ACP does almost as well against people targets as the 44 magnum, but you can't tell that from the ballistics.[/QB]</font>[/QUOTE]You got me on that one. I keep forgeting that ammo makers in the States tend to underload the round.

The same 230 grain ball load (FMJ) used for the military lists in the manual at 1000fps muzzle. At the same time the .44mag normally goes for about 1180fps. If you got your ballistics from Remington or Winchester you have the 45 correct, but have the 44mag overstated by about 220fps.

If you go with the numbers I had at the time I posted, the rounds look a lot more alike. However, since the commercially available round is the one most people would be stuck with (myself included), I'll have to concede your point.
 
Stop me if I'm wrong, but aren't revolvers generally more relaible for use underwater?

Also, thinking back to a TML thread about firearms in a vacumn and the stresses on the materials from hard vacumn, wouldn't revolvers (with their simpler mechanisms) be more reliable there too? Same with insidious/corrosive atmospheres?

Shane
 
Originally posted by Darth Sillyus:
I've always been impressed with Browning's work, and I'm rather pleased that Uncle Sam decided to use his design. I've never had the pleasure of handling a GP-35, but if it's anything like the "colt" I could see myself becoming rather fond of it rather quickly.[/QB]
It's very much like the colt. (I used to own a Remington-Rand 1911a1, and an Inglis Hi-power). Disassembling them side by side, you could see were Browning had simplified in the later design. Same camming, recoil system but... no bushing, no pivoting link and durn... It's a been a few years now I can remember the rest. The Bushing and the little spring loaded locking knob for it are replaced by simple solid workings of the frame. The link is replaced by a pair of locking lugs on the barrel/chamber and a pair of groves carved into the inside of the slide, very slick. CZ though went one better ( think it's cz though there are copycats) instead of lugs and grooves the chamber itself is sauared off and molded to mate with the hole of the ejection port.

Garf
 
Everyone raises good points.
I think revolvers -are- more likely to be prefered in the traveler universe for cultural rather than technical reasons. There are couple of technical advantages to revolvers though.

Automatic and semi-automatic firearms are -machines- that are powered by energy leached from the fired round. the weight and friction of the slide, the strength of the springs etc. are all factors calculable factors in it's operation. That's why automatics have a much narrower range of tolerable loadings. it doesn't take a severe deviation in bullet shape or actual round length to cause a round to hang up in some way. An undercharged round (not enough powder/energy), a dirty gun (too much friction) and yes being fired under water, would all reduce an autopistol to a clunky manual repeater. (that is to say it would require manual operation of the slide after each bullet. assuming the rounds didn't REALLY jam becuase of the environment conditions. Also most autopistols leach away RECOIL energy to operate themselves. (there's other methods, gas, blowback etc.). Holding an autopistol too loosely so that the whole gun recoils instead of just the slide is one way to cause a temporary stoppage. (zero and micro gravity might wiegh in on this issue, though the inertia of the firer would remain the same in any gravity. Hmmmm though HEAVY gravity WOULD increase the weight of the slide....hmmm)

Revolvers on the other hand rely on the strength of the firer's finger to operate. As long a round will fit in the chamber and has enough energy when fired to escape the barrel, you can load a revolver with ANYTHING. And yes, it doesn't care if it's underwater or in vaccum, or in high or low gravity. as long as the above is true and you have the strength to either cock the hammer or pull through the long Double action trigger pull a revolver will fire again. (DA only 'hammerless' revolvers can even be fired from inside a pocket. An environment likely to snag an automatic).

Revolvers have just as many (or more) moving parts and springs which are made of the same materials as automatics. (generally, there's a lot of different metals and alloys that guns can be made from -today-) They would be Just as prone to corosion or vaccum sun-welds as automatics that are made from the same materials.

One key difference, This goes back to my first post about relovers tolerating neglect while automatics tolerate abuse.

Assuming you feed either type properly, most autmotics will respond better to being kicked,dropped, thrown, used as a blunt object etc, than most Revolvers. Revolvers have more parts at risk to impact damage than automatics.

Revolvers on the other hand don't have to be clean to work. Their natural 'at rest and ready' condition leaves all their springs at rest. (unlike Automatics which will at least have tension in the spring of the loaded magasine). Relovers are more likely to work after being left alone (weather in a ship's locker or a bored security officer's holster) than automatics.

Please note the words "More likely" I'm not saying revolvers are infinitely reliable or that automatics are not. I -am- saying that if you tend to treat your firearms in a certain way. picking one over the other will stack the odds in your favour. Depending, of course, on how you use it.

IF -I- were a traveller character. I'd probably avoid the whole debate and buy a snub revolver. the cool thing about those is that you can put different funky rounds into different chambers. IMTU snub pistols even have indicator windows to make it easy to 'dial' up the round you want.
GARF
 
Every source I have found for the 45 ACP, both military and commercial, show 230 gr FMJ @830(835) fps for only 480 Joules. Hot commercial ammo can push 185 gr JHP @ 1000 fps, 560 Joules

Checking commercial sites, brand name 44 Magnum ammo starts at 1180 fps, which is 1000 J. That is twice the energy of a .45 ACP, but less then I thought. Ah, but that is out of a 4" barrel. Out of a six inch barrel the NIJ standard 44 magnum for testing body armor is 240 gr @ 1400 fps

45 ACP
WHB Smith, Small Arms of The World
230 gr FMJ @ 830 fps
Winchester http://www.winchester.com/ammunition/store/cfhandgun.eye
230 gr FMJ @ 835 fps, 185 JHP gr @ 1000 fps
Remington http://www.remington.com/ammo/ballistics/ballistics.htm
230 gr FMJ @ 835 fps, 185 gr JHP @ 1000 fps

44 Magum
NIJ ballistics standards http://www.ncjrs.org/txtfiles1/nij/189633.txt
240 gr JHP @ 1400 fps
Winchester http://www.winchester.com/ammunition/store/cfhandgun.eye
250 JHP gr @ 1230 fps, 240 gr JSP @ 1180 fps
Remington http://www.remington.com/ammo/ballistics/ballistics.htm
180 gr SJHP @ 1610 fps, 240 gr JHP @ 1180
 
on the comparison side it's a bit of a red herring to compare the .45 and the .44 magnum anyway.

The rules are pretty consistant. (I think striker actually had several calibre sizes but otherwise...)

Autopistol and Revolver in traveler fire incompatable 9mm amunition.

So a more 'fair' comparison would be between. 9mm parabellum and .38 special (these being the 'standard' 9mm Automatic and revolver rounds)

if you wanted to stack the odds in the revolver's favour you could compare .380 Acp (9mm short) with .357 Magnum.

or to stack the odds the other way. compare .38 Super (a .45 case bottle necked down to fire 9mm bullets) with .38 smith and wesson (a 9mm revolver round with less powder than .38 special)



However, I suspect. (I haven't bothered to refresh my memory from any of my hardcopy or online references) That a comparison of 9mm parabellum and .38 special will produce nearly identical real world performance (both are just barely 'major' rounds in IPSC.)

I think my previous comments still stand. but I think the idea of environmental conditions is worthy of a second look. The revolver's reliance on muscle power to operate it's action would go a LONG way to making it more versitile in odd environments. (perhaps that's why the marines who fight in zero g, or are first to make planetfall still have revolvers in the original CT?)

Garf
 
No arguuement with you, Garf, allthough I think the revolver is a very hot .38 or a light load 357 to be exactly equivalent to the 9x19mm, but the system does not allow such fine distinctions anyway.

I was responding to Darth Sillyus' insistance that the 45 ACP was almost the same as a 44 magnum. Having fired both I found it difficult to believe.
 
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