Revolvers vs. Autopistols

[stormcrow]

I have heard that the Brittish troops were re-issued the older FAL's with the 'sand cuts' on the bolts because the newer rifles (don't remember the name of the rifle as it has never interested me) just were not reliable at ALL over there in the sand.

Supposedly the FAL's with the proper mods were ok.. my point is that wouldn't weapons such as the snub pistol be specifially DESIGNED to function correctly in a variety of atmospheres and gravities? I mean, it is meant to be used aboard a starship, yes? OK, so it wasn't designed to be used in a corrosive atmosphere, but wasn't SOMETHING designed for that? Perhaps a modified accelerator rifle? A gauss rifle with special materials (heavier) ?

The revolver as a DESIGN is outdated and has been since the days of Mr. John Browning on old Terra.

Note: I am NOT trying to start a flame war with the died in the wool wheelgunners that I am just SURE are out there.. I enjoy shooting wheelguns too (have a nice Ruger Blackhawk .44mag), but for combat I will take the autopistol any day of the year.

-] Crow

 

[vegascat]

It seems everyone does have a strong opinion on this one. Have to wonder what improvements will come along for revolvers and autopistols in the next few hundred years. Look at the last hundred and extrapolate.

-----------------------------
In the end, Murphy will rule

 

[PapaGolfWhiskey]

ON a slghtly less pragmatic note. Anyone seen xXx yet?

Now the revolver in that movie is the sort of gearhead fantasy gun that I figured a snub revolver can be.

On the Revolvers Vs. Autopistols issue I think we are dropping out of rationality and into religion. Those who have never collected a issue of 'guns and ammo' or who never Borrowed the stackpole company's 'Small arms of the world' from their library or, heaven forbid, actually owned or handled guns have probably left us by now.

I think my very first post on this topic (about three pages ago) summed up my own opinions nicely and I haven't heard much to change it. all else being equal (same advantages in new material same limitations/advantages on high tech add-ons let's ignore the possibilities of handguns with computer chips and lcd displays for now after if the 'autpistol' can still be produced at tech 6 (and I think it's avil much earlier, don't have my books handy) then it isn't much different than browning's last design.

Given the above and speaking in RELATIVE terms not absolute terms. Compared to each other...

Revolvers:
Are more catholic in their ammunition tastes anything that will fit in the chamber and launch out the barrel can be fired. they can even be mixed together in the same load of six.

Ignoring exceptions like the Mauser pistol, Revolvers are not limited by ammunition size/magasine capacity in there ergonomics (ie They can be made to fit the smallest or largest (or non human) of hands with greater ease)

With the Caveat that all machines break and there is no excuse for poor maintence, Revolvers are (all else being equal) more likely to fire after being loaded, stored and ignored.

--I am told-- that revolvers are easier to gain competency in.

(my own experience owning a 1991a1, a Browning hp-35, and a .38 special Smith &wesson -- seems to bear that out. Thoug the S&W was an especially sweet firearm. all else might not have been equal there.)

Autopistols (especially in game turns, and when compare 'standard' issue rounds like .38 and 9mm parabellum):

Fire Many many more, of a round with one notch more power. Reload faster and with greater simplicty, BUT... require a narrower tolerances between the rounds fired in matters of dimensions, power loads and bullet nose shape. (mixing even otherwise identical ammo, but of different manufacture or sometimes even lot number has been known to degrade reliability)

With the Caveat that all machines break and nothing is an excuse for treating a firearm roughly, Autopistols are more robust the can be dropped kicked, and/or used a blunt instruments are all else being equal will be more like to fire afterwards than a revolver so used.

--I am told -- that Autopistols require dedication and practice to gain and maintain competency but given such practice are easter to master than revolvers.

The above is pretty concrete (i think) Yes, Revolvers are oboselete (so are swords, they still can kill you). Yes, Autopistols have resolved, on planet earth, and with the exception noted above, every other reiiability issue associated with them. No I Don't think that means Revolvers are not without advantages nor that they will disapear in the future or be relegated to ONLY being cultural relics.

I can speculate on how the far future will change things. new materials new lubricants. All SORTS of funky add ons, bells and whistles. But the point of tech levels is that -basically- the designs that appear at a given tech level are pretty much compatable throughout the imperium. pretty much. That implies a HECK of a lot of standarization AND a limit on the above.. accessories (unless added AS accessories.)

I can speculate on how other extra-terrestrial enviroments (space, hostile planets) may affect firearm performance. Note in the desert storm story. The 1911's weak point (requiring the most attention) was the magasines, these are part of every autopistol and notably LACKING in a revolver (I'm sure they had to be cleaned. I'm sure some of the swivels and joints were a BITCH to clean. but... no magasine to gum up)

Most of this is just a rehash of what I have said in earlier posts. The topic was, how the traveller rules treat the differences between the two guns and weather there should be mods for that.

I leave it up to you.

PS -- a little side bar: I LOVE the FN FAL. When I did my basic training I was the last militia intake to be trained on what we called the FN C-1 and C-2 (almost textbook examples of the CT 'rifle' and 'autorifle')

I was issued a heavy pig of a thing that had a datestamp 8 years earlier than my mid-60's birthyear. When instructed to name her I called her 'Foehammer' (This was what...12 years before the movie?). As part of our training, for FIBUA (fighting in built up areas), when clearing an attic or when needing to otherwise give buddy a boost, we were instructed to put one rifle on safe, hand one end to a third infantier and have buddy STEP on the RECIEVER to get up and do his thing. (Try that with an M-16 and you'll get something that resembles my -british style- private's chevron).

I didn't settle on a name or feel anything near as comfortable with the '90 datestamped C-7 (m-16 clone with a maple leaf stamp and some cold weather mods-- ie. openable trigger guard for shooting with gloves) that I received as issue when I returned to my home unit. The FAL's were stuck in 'war stores' probably right beside the Lee-Enfields that had served through both world wars and into the boer war. Sometimes obsolete .. ain't so bad.

 

[stormcrow]

OT:

I have both an STG-58 (FN-FAL w/ Austrian parts, mostly) and an AR-15.. and to be honest with you I couldn't tell you which I would choose if told I had to.. They are both AWESOME rifles.. The AR-15 is MUCH MUCH more accurate than I am, but the FAL is just so damned SOLID I don't think I could break her if I tried...

anyway, just my $0.02 10 mins before I hit the sack.

-] Crow

 

[PapaGolfWhiskey]

Well the .223 Remington is a 'varmint' round, that is a round intended to pick off gopher heads on open prarie.

one the other hand .308 is adequate for most north american big game...

hmmmm... humans have gone from 'big game' to 'varmints' ewww...

And you 'own' what in my country have been 'Prohibited Weapons' since I was about 14...(GREEN with ENVY)

 

[gardclan]

Originally posted by Garf:
As part of our training, for FIBUA (fighting in built up areas), when clearing an attic or when needing to otherwise give buddy a boost, we were instructed to put one rifle on safe, hand one end to a third infantier and have buddy STEP on the RECIEVER to get up and do his thing. (Try that with an M-16 and you'll get something that resembles my -british style- private's chevron).

No... I think that this would reduce the M16 into two not quite so even halves. You should see what can happen when your loader leaves the thing halfway between the driver's compartment and halfway into the turret cage! The words "snap, crackle, pop!" come to mind. The poor thing didn't even give up a fight. (But then again, the M1 tank turret masses well over 20 tons and has a hydraulic system to match... so it wasn't much of a competition.)

 

[stormcrow]

Still WAY OT:

Garf- The AR-15 is just a stock standard Bushmaster XM15-E2S . Notice that this is NOT an M-16 A2 (boy 3 rnd burst would be nice to have, I could waste even more ammo), as the 'gentlemen' in DC decided way back in the '20's that common folk such as myself can't be trusted with such things. And of course ever since we haven't had any crime.

The FAL is (according to everyone I ever meet with it) one of the most beautiful examples of an STG-58 you will ever see. The Austrian gov't was clearing out some old warehouses of them and some entrepeneur grabbed the old STG-58s, made them legal to import (by cutting them in half through the upper receiver), imported them to the US and selling the parts so that people could build rifles with these parts. To make it US legal you just have to have a certain %age of US made parts and it can't be full auto of course. Me and 6 friends all bought one and had them crafted by this guy out in Arizona (we are in Texas) into works of art. He put the best finish I have ever seen for a rifle onto them (in whatever color you wanted, one guy got his in camo, another in 'police green' which looks major cool). To see what mine looks like go here .

For all I know that is a picture of the one in my gun safe

Look around his sight, he is a true craftsman.

 

[vegascat]

I have handled many weapons of various types.
The M-9 in military use is the only one I have used to drop the hammer just setting it down, thank god it was not loaded.
The German mauser pistol had a nasty tendancy to twist in the hand.
The Ruger .44 Blackhawk had the voice of AUTHORITY, but took a couple of seconds to get back on target, if you still needed a second shot.
A .38 police special is the most acurate handgun I have used.
M-16s in military use have barrel linings shot out so are not so accurate anymore. Last one I used put oval holes in paper at twenty yards.
The MP-38 was a sweet machine. Nice groupings. And well maintained. The Germans can be quite intense about weapon maintenance.

I did enjoy the German American friendship shoots.

 

[stormcrow]

for the perfect autopistol try the Sig 226 . Most accurate pistol I have shot BY FAR... Whenever I think of an autopistol in Traveller that is exactly what I am hoping it is.

The only thing I think would be better is a magnum autopistol... but is the .45 ACP a magnum round? This would be nice to know stats for as I really like them in RL.

 

[Uncle Bob]

Originally posted by stormcrow:
for the perfect autopistol try the Sig 226 . Most accurate pistol I have shot BY FAR... Whenever I think of an autopistol in Traveller that is exactly what I am hoping it is.

The only thing I think would be better is a magnum autopistol... but is the .45 ACP a magnum round? This would be nice to know stats for as I really like them in RL.

The SiG is good. Murph carries one and in 357 SiG they are the sidearm of the Texas DPS (Highway Patrol)

The .45 ACP is not a magnum round and is simulated well enough as a standard Autopistol if you reduce the magazine capacity.
Cartridge Energy
Pocket pistolds/revolvers (2-3" bbl)
32 ACP (7.65mm Kurtz)-- 175 J
9x18mm (Makarov)------- 271 J
38 Special (200 gr)-------- 300 J

Service pistols/revolvers (4-5" bbl)
38 Special (FBI load)------- 400 J
9x19mm "Parabellum"----- 460 J
45 ACP (5" barrel)--------- 480 J
40 S&W------------------------- 500 J
10mm "FBI lite"------------- 500 J
357 Magum (125 gr JHP)-- 680 J
357 SiG auto pistol--------- 680 J

Hunting (7.5" bbl) Magnums
Revolvers
357 Magnum (158gr JHP)-- 900 J
44 Magnum (240 gr)------ 1400 J
454 Casull------------------ 2390 J
Auto pistols
10 mm Magnum--------------750-900 J
50 AE---------------------- 1600 J
45 Winchester Magnum--- 1130 J

 

[stormcrow]

OK, just out of curiosity where does the 10mm round (in RL) fit into that? It is a pretty powerful round yes? Magnum or standard? Never fired one but it was my understanding that the concept was to improve the .45acp round.

And yes, I know that paper says that .45acp isn't magnum (or close to it), but (not to open a flame war) from what I have heard and read it's actual performance is on par with the magnums in terms of killing human beings... in between that statement and my deep desire to own the USP that I listed, I want it to be a magnum in the game

It has superior performance, is unable to be hidden (big gun), has limited ammo capabilities (12 rnds/mag). I would think that if 9mm is 1d10 dmg, then a .45 would be 1d12.

 

[Shadow Bear]

Originally posted by stormcrow:

Note: I am NOT trying to start a flame war with the died in the wool wheelgunners that I am just SURE are out there.. I enjoy shooting wheelguns too (have a nice Ruger Blackhawk .44mag), but for combat I will take the autopistol any day of the year.

-] Crow

Yes, if you have to go with a wheel gun Ruger is my choice as well. For home defense we use a .45 cal carbine (uses the same mag as a 1911) because my wife cannot pull back the slide on a 1911 but has no trouble with the bolt on the carbine. For those of you whi are curious, it shoots like a .22 semi auto rifle; almost no kick at all.

 

[Uncle Bob]

Originally posted by Garf:
Well the .223 Remington is a 'varmint' round, that is a round intended to pick off gopher heads on open prarie.

one the other hand .308 is adequate for most north american big game...
0
hmmmm... humans have gone from 'big game' to 'varmints' ewww...

The similar 222 Remington Magnum was made for varmints, the 223 was always intended for people. Besides, people are medium game, like deer or sheep and a .308 (7.62x51mm) is a bit much. Something between 6-7mm would be appropriate.

Ignoring body armor I think a 6.3-6.5mm round with a 7 g bullet @ 800 m/s would be nearly ideal.

When all is said and done, the 5.56x45 does remarkably well, even compared to the big boys.
http://www.molonlabe.net/johns/terminal.htm

 

[PapaGolfWhiskey]

In Canada the gun laws operate on what Piaget ( developmental Psych theorist) would describe as a two year old's reasoning. To wit: if it looks like an 'assualt rifle' it IS an 'assualt rifle'

Nasty black plastic is out, Pistol grips are out, anything formerly used by Canada's or Britain's or the US's militaries after about 1950, are out. (the only reason they didn't ban the .303 enfield is becuase half the 'hunting rifles' in this country began life as one, I'm sure).

Prohibited means illegal to own. Any ammunition magasine with a capacity of greater than ten is prohibited. Possessing the --Magasine-- is technically the same crime as possesing a fully loaded fully functional UZI.. ARGH!!... don't get me started on my country's gun laws (at that they are probably less restrictive than Britain's)

As for the 10mm question...

I don't have any numbers but here's a bit of history.

The Original 10mm (I don't know the exact dimensions) was developed either by or on behalf of the FBI as a possible replacement for the then common .38 special. Something with more punch than the 9mmx19mm was desired, but that could be double stacked in a magasine with greater ease than a .45 acp. (whose nearly 12mm diameter made double stacking a problem for all but the largest of hands)

S&W took this 'interim' round (which was about .4 of an inch) cut it down slightly and made it into the very popular .40 Smith and Wesson. Even Browning Hi-powers can be purchased in this chambering. (I always thought such could be called Browning Higher-powers but that's me)

International Practical Shooting Competitions (IPSC) about 3 -5 years ago when I was dabbling in them, had a limited set of calibres that were allowed and divided THOSE into Two Catagories Major and Minor.

The line was thin. most rounds would ALL be just Revolver or Autopistol rounds in Traveller terms. I don't think the (until 1935 and the arrival of the .357 magnum) fastest round in the world the .30 mauser pistol was 'powerful' enough for these competitions. 9x19 and .38 special counted as Minor Calibres. You were expected to be more accurate with them and needed to be, As the scoring was .... loosely based on stopping power. Where you hit on a vaguely man shaped figure with two bullets 'double tapped' into each assigned target dictated your score. Center of Mass or the little knob at the top of the target scored highest. With minor calibres 'Alpha' hits scored the same as with Major calibres, but the scoring for less than optimum hits (beta,charlie,delta, miss, no shoot) fell off more sharply.

9x19 was Minor, rounds like .40 S&W and 9x21 dillon (a custom round designed for IPSC) were just barely Major, .45 ACP was truly Major.

At a guess I'd suggest that 10mm (the original FBI round) would be an IPSC major calibre, in the same energy ball park as .45 acp or .357 magnum.

I think it's safer, unless your group is composed entirely of 'Gun nuts' like myself, to limit yourself to the existing guns in the system.

if you want to add a little complexity, allow some cosmetic variences...
a) revolver's that shoot body pistol rounds. and use the body pistol stats.
b) Auto pistols using the stats but not the ammo count of a 'magnum revolver' or.. Revolvers using the stat line of autopistols except for weight and ammo count (the latter can even USE autopistol rounds, if you feel like explaining 'half moon' clips.)

c) 'Magnum' revolvers with 'Carbine' or ACR ammo. (probably should find a compromise stat line to reflect reduced muzzle velocity and violent recoil from the gun. but it has been tried.)

ummm .. you get the idea. This way you don't have to invent new guns. or new stat lines.

Actually you know.. the above sounds like the seed for a ship's locker article.. hmmmm....

 

[Uncle Bob]

Originally posted by stormcrow:
OK, just out of curiosity where does the 10mm round (in RL) fit into that? It is a pretty powerful round yes? Magnum or standard? Never fired one but it was my understanding that the concept was to improve the .45acp round.

And yes, I know that paper says that .45acp isn't magnum (or close to it), but (not to open a flame war) from what I have heard and read it's actual performance is on par with the magnums in terms of killing human beings... in between that statement and my deep desire to own the USP that I listed, I want it to be a magnum in the game

It has superior performance, is unable to be hidden (big gun), has limited ammo capabilities (12 rnds/mag). I would think that if 9mm is 1d10 dmg, then a .45 would be 1d12.

Well, D10 to D12 OK, but I might prefer 2D6. In CT I don't think the evidence is there for an extra D6.
The 10mm is now just about dead, killed by the 40 S&W. The 40 S&W has about 500 J, the FBI load 10mm about the same.
The commercial 10mm ran 750-900 joules.

 

[PapaGolfWhiskey]

Yes, the infamous wound cavity. Gah...

cuaght in an exageration. I just thought in an amusing if pungent observation on life.

Velocity is DEFINITLY a factor in damage. I know that (text book wise anyway) from both ends, as a gun nut and a Nurse with Ambulance training.

However, while increasing velocity at the expanse of mass may allow you to liberate a larger proportion of your bullet's energy in the target the reason that happens is a sacrifice to the dieties of ballistics.

E=MV(squared)
Inertia=MV

Low mass High velocity bullets may have the same energy as larger slower moving bullets with the same powder behind them But...

They have much less Inertia.

ergo they are more likely to deflect on cover, fail to penetrate armour etc...

of course that's not always bad... if they hit an unarmoured target they deform and deflect and otherwise fail to OVER penetrate their target spending all their energy doing wounds rather than travelling on behind the target to do things the shooter did not intend. ('safety slugs' use easily deformed bullets to achieve the same goal of complete energy transfer, and lack of overpenetration)

 

[stormcrow]

should start a new thread titled GUN NUTS OF TRAVELLER!

but!

I think that T20s way of applying damage vs. armor looked awfully darn good to me, except: an autopistol does 1D10 of dmg... you roll a 9, vs AC of 7 (combat armor), so you take stamina damage of 9 and lifeblood of 2.. Now, I would think that a fully rigid suit of TL12 combat armor would pretty much make a 10mm round (magnum or no) pretty much a non-issue unless it were a critical hit (it just HAPPENED to hit the one spot that is weak).

If you are wearing level IIIA body armor and someone shoots you with a .22 I think you can pretty much shrug it off.. If you are wearing level IVA (with plate) and someone shoots you with a .38spec (no crits allowed in this discussion) you may well take SOME stamina damage (NOT the same amount as you would without armor!) but not much if any lifeblood.

Was this done just to keep people from running around in Combat Armor and not caring if they are shot? As a GM this is a good rule I think, but it does seem a bit... artificial.

The basics of stamina vs. lifeblood is awesome btw.

 

[Uncle Bob]

One of my characters had a semi-automatic hunting carbine made (manlicher stock, 5 round magazine, 4x 'scope) in 9mm. This was a brush gun similar to a RL 35 Remington.

As it happened the rounds were identical to the 9mm ACR "slug" rounds and the receiver could accept standard ACR mags of APDS or HEAP. It is a lot easier to smuggle ammo than whole guns.

They have made a revolver to fire 45-70 (the .475 Linebaugh is a cut-down 45-70) and I have seen a single shot pistol in .50 BMG.

 

[PapaGolfWhiskey]

There are also plenty of 'carbines' that fire pistol rounds. Popular (according to G&A) for home defense since you don't really need a rifle to defend an urban home and you can make the carbine fire the same ammo as your handguns.

What I was thinking of with my Magnum firing carbine rounds though was an experiment the americans tried for their paratroopers.

They rechambered the M1917 revolver for M1 carbine instead of .45 acp.

Then issue M1's and the rechambered M1917's to the troops. The idea was not popular, Anemic as the M1 round is even in a light carbine as a pistol round it's punishingly loud and violent.

I can't imagine what firing a .50 BMG out of a handgun would be like. A half inch slug with the same ratio (and near resulting velocity) of powder to lead as high velocity m-16 bullet... out of a HANDGUN...

 

[Simon Jester]

Originally posted by stormcrow:
should start a new thread titled GUN NUTS OF TRAVELLER!

but!

I think that T20s way of applying damage vs. armor looked awfully darn good to me, except: an autopistol does 1D10 of dmg... you roll a 9, vs AC of 7 (combat armor), so you take stamina damage of 9 and lifeblood of 2.. Now, I would think that a fully rigid suit of TL12 combat armor would pretty much make a 10mm round (magnum or no) pretty much a non-issue unless it were a critical hit (it just HAPPENED to hit the one spot that is weak).

But that's just it. Combat suits aren't fully rigid. They've got rigid plates and panels, but they've still got to have joints for movement, and adjustment areas to allow expansion within areas (a person's thigh gets thicker when they squat down than when they are just standing, etc.) If you've got to rationalize the damage, just consider the bullet as having hit one of these areas, or perhaps a hinge between two plates. The plates stopped the majority of the bullet, but fragments still got through.

If you are wearing level IIIA body armor and someone shoots you with a .22 I think you can pretty much shrug it off.. If you are wearing level IVA (with plate) and someone shoots you with a .38spec (no crits allowed in this discussion) you may well take SOME stamina damage (NOT the same amount as you would without armor!) but not much if any lifeblood.

Was this done just to keep people from running around in Combat Armor and not caring if they are shot? As a GM this is a good rule I think, but it does seem a bit... artificial.

The basics of stamina vs. lifeblood is awesome btw.

I'm going to be dealing with this by including specific body areas and armor coverage. For each bullet (or whatever) that hits, the player or I would roll a d10 or d20 to determine what body area got hit, and how many armor points actually affect the damage. I might impose a maximum limit on how many Lifeblood points can be inflicted by a gunshot wound to, say, the lower leg or the hand, but I'm still working on that. I'll need to get the full rules to read over first before I make up my mind.

Simon Jester