Ringworld (CT type)

[nyrath]

Occupying a Ringworld and controlling it and its defenses are two different things. As mentioned, it would take 1000+ years to figure the place out if your completely dedicated to the initiative. At that tech level it is doubtful that TL15 Imperium and the others are going to figure anything out quickly.

It might take that long for the Imperium to figure out how to make their very own stellar gas-dynamic laser.
I do not think it will take the Imperium 1000+ years to translate the control panel and figure out which is the "Fire" button.

Also, the calculations on land mass vs the Imperium are probably off. We really only have a good picture of Imperium mainworlds and only rare glimpses at other system worlds.

According to canon, the Third Imperium had 11,000 star systems, with an average of one inhabited planet per system.
http://wiki.travellerrpg.com/Fourth_Imperium

If that was off by a factor of ten, it would have 110,000 worlds.
Which would mean the Ringworld would only have room to hold about 27 entire Imperiums.

If you cut the ringworld and laid it out flat, it would be 1.6 million kilometers wide and 960 million kilometers long.
Which means you could place about 123 planets the size of Earth side by side within the width of the Ringworld, and about 74,000 Earth sized planets within the length.

 

[Chuck Anumia]

Defenses

I wonder what Defenses come with a ringworld?
Wouldn't you think that whoever built it would have included ways to defend it (during and after construction?)

 

[savage]

It might take that long for the Imperium to figure out how to make their very own stellar gas-dynamic laser.
I do not think it will take the Imperium 1000+ years to translate the control panel and figure out which is the "Fire" button.



According to canon, the Third Imperium had 11,000 star systems, with an average of one inhabited planet per system.
http://wiki.travellerrpg.com/Fourth_Imperium

If that was off by a factor of ten, it would have 110,000 worlds.
Which would mean the Ringworld would only have room to hold about 27 entire Imperiums.

If you cut the ringworld and laid it out flat, it would be 1.6 million kilometers wide and 960 million kilometers long.
Which means you could place about 123 planets the size of Earth side by side within the width of the Ringworld, and about 74,000 Earth sized planets within the length.

You're assuming you can find the control room and panel, that it has no defenses, and is safely, simply accessible. Look closely at canon Ancient technology and we find it's not that simple and often psionic. It could even be race specific meaning no one will ever control it. TL27 doesn't need a control tower visible to the entire world. If you give players access to TL27 ringworld weaponry, the universe will be dramatically changed. Ancient technology also, does not like to be fired upon with nuclear grade weaponry.

I'm not suggesting the Imperium is close to the size of one ring world. I'm stating the Imperium has more land mass than we take into account. I'm suggesting it is not fully explored and that many would not want to leave it. I would think a 5% population might be interested.

This means Ringworld is going to be open to exploration for a long time.

 

[Highorbit_drifter]

I wonder what Defenses come with a ringworld?
Wouldn't you think that whoever built it would have included ways to defend it (during and after construction?)

It would have to come with that stellar laser, if only to ward off meteors, as in Niven's ringworld. And probably focused gravity weapons. Both would be useful in stablizing its orbit as well as fighting off pesky Grandchildren.

Understanding a tech and being able to use a tech are two different things. I'm sure that once someone actually finds a control room it won't take all that long to figure out some basic control. Building your own somewhere else is a totally different proposition, and likely will take longer than the 1000 year mark.

Savage is right in that Ancients tech is usually psionic. For sake of story and adventure possibilities I'd give it a control room. Heck, these are Ancients so I'd give it six control rooms.

If it was built by Ancients it was likely built by a Grandchild. Grandfather himself would have completed the thing, and/or translated it into a pocket universe. That it is unfinished means there are some construction equipment lying around, maybe whatever lifeforms that were to be planted on it hidden in stasis, etc. Grandfather was usually pretty good at cleaning up, or at least bombing rivals and leaving only craters and odd bits to find, so what killed off the workers here? Virus, like the Zho homeworld, or something more exotic?

I'm just troubled by why Grandfather would leave the thing up.

 

[nyrath]

You're assuming you can find the control room and panel, that it has no defenses, and is safely, simply accessible. Look closely at canon Ancient technology and we find it's not that simple and often psionic. It could even be race specific meaning no one will ever control it. TL27 doesn't need a control tower visible to the entire world. If you give players access to TL27 ringworld weaponry, the universe will be dramatically changed. Ancient technology also, does not like to be fired upon with nuclear grade weaponry.

I'm not suggesting the Imperium is close to the size of one ring world. I'm stating the Imperium has more land mass than we take into account. I'm suggesting it is not fully explored and that many would not want to leave it. I would think a 5% population might be interested.

This means Ringworld is going to be open to exploration for a long time.

Did you ever read the novel Ringworld Engineers?
The Ringworld's controls might be located in a hyperdimensional pocket with telekinetic controls only usable by an entity with an IQ over 1,000 and guarded by an army of Death Stars. Or it could be in a control tower marked with a laser beacon and consist of a large red button with an "boom" icon. It all depends upon the game master.

Yes, the Imperium may not be fully explored, but neither is the Ringworld. But a fully inhabited Ringworld would contain about two hundred times as many marvels, intrigues and adventures as the Imperium. With all of it reachable by a Jump-zero system ship. In the Chaosium Ringworld RPG, the players never go anywhere else.

The point is that a Ringworld breaks the Traveller universe.

 

[nyrath]

I'm just troubled by why Grandfather would leave the thing up.

As bait for a trap...

 

[savage]

Did you ever read the novel Ringworld Engineers?
... It all depends upon the game master.
...With all of In the Chaosium Ringworld RPG, the players never go anywhere else.

The point is that a Ringworld breaks the Traveller universe.

Yes, I've read it. It is not really relevant. Unless your intending a different question.

Everything depends on the game master. I have limited jumpgates IMTU. It changes what i allow it to change. The game master does not have to introduce "super" weapons that are permanent to the universe unless they're attempting to move from a Traveller universe to a different game. If they want to play Chaosium they should go play Chaosium. This is Traveller every place should be a place to visit.

 

[whulorigan]

BTW, refresh my memory: Is there anywhere in canon documentation that establishes explicitly that the Ringworld in the Leenitakot system is a Niven Ringworld specifically? Could it actually be something more modest like a Bishop-Ring or a "Culture-Style" O-Ring/Orbital?

 

[nyrath]

Yes, I've read it. It is not really relevant. Unless your intending a different question.

The Ringworld is from Niven's novel Ringworld.
The Ringworld in the scenario is modeled after the one in the novel.
In Ringworld Engineers, they learn about the titanic sized star laser. The protagonists need to control it. It takes them about half a day to locate the Repair Center, where the controls are. It took another day to find the controls, and one more to learn how to use them. It did not take them 1000+ years.

Presumably, if the Ringworld is from Niven's novels, it has all the features from Niven's novels. Including the fact it takes about three days to trigger the laser defense.

That is why I asked if you had read the novel.

So far, in an attempt to jam the square peg of the Ringworld into the round hole of Traveller, we have to depopulate it, have no usable land, and make the laser defense unusable. In other words, remove all the parts that make the Ringworld a Ringworld. It becomes just another barren planet, but with a nice view.

If it is that hard, if it breaks so many things, why bother putting it in Traveller at all?

 

[rancke]

Presumably, if the Ringworld is from Niven's novels, it has all the features from Niven's novels. Including the fact it takes about three days to trigger the laser defense.

That's an unwarranted assumption. When a writer borrows an idea from someone else, he often takes care not to borrow more than absolutely necessary and to add ideas of his own.

So far, in an attempt to jam the square peg of the Ringworld into the round hole of Traveller, we have to depopulate it, have no usable land, and make the laser defense unusable. In other words, remove all the parts that make the Ringworld a Ringworld. It becomes just another barren planet, but with a nice view.

It's a throwaway reference designed to highlight how powerful and how mysterious the Ancients were. It's not meant to be a carbon copy of Niven's ringworld. It's meant to be a big incomprehensible look-how-ineffable-the-Ancients-were thingy.


Hans

 

[nyrath]

BTW, refresh my memory: Is there anywhere in canon documentation that establishes explicitly that the Ringworld in the Leenitakot system is a Niven Ringworld specifically? Could it actually be something more modest like a Bishop-Ring or a "Culture-Style" O-Ring/Orbital?

I suppose it is an improvement if there is only three subsectors crammed into one hex instead of 200 Imperiums, but Culture Orbitals still makes a mess of things.

I was under the impression that things the size of Bishop ring were standard in the Glisten system.

 

[nyrath]

That's an unwarranted assumption. When a writer borrows an idea from someone else, he often takes care not to borrow more than absolutely necessary and to add ideas of his own.

Which in this case means borrowing nothing. Except it looks like a ring.

It's a throwaway reference designed to highlight how powerful and how mysterious the Ancients were. It's not meant to be a carbon copy of Niven's ringworld. It's meant to be a big incomprehensible look-how-ineffable-the-Ancients-were thingy.

Then why not use something truly awesome, like a Dyson sphere?

 

[rancke]

Then why not use something truly awesome, like a Dyson sphere?

You will have to ask the original author for an answer to that question. Perhaps he remembered about ringworlds but not about Dyson spheres? Perhaps he liked ringworlds better than Dyson spheres?


Hans

 

[savage]

Which in this case means borrowing nothing. Except it looks like a ring.



Then why not use something truly awesome, like a Dyson sphere?

nyrath,
Hans is correct. Authors tend not to completely duplicate a copied item. However, if you want a fully functional ringworld in YTU, by all means do it.
Not only have I recently reread RE but also i have ringworld rpg. I think its a bit disappointing that it is not more interesting in Traveller.

I'd say that it was completely GDWs intent to have no game changers in the Known Space of 3I. Only, Ancient toys that are occasionally brought to life for an event and then mysteriously die, run out of power and are useless.

 

[JimMarn]

It would have to come with that stellar laser, if only to ward off meteors, as in Niven's ringworld. And probably focused gravity weapons. Both would be useful in stablizing its orbit as well as fighting off pesky Grandchildren.

Understanding a tech and being able to use a tech are two different things. I'm sure that once someone actually finds a control room it won't take all that long to figure out some basic control. Building your own somewhere else is a totally different proposition, and likely will take longer than the 1000 year mark.

Savage is right in that Ancients tech is usually psionic. For sake of story and adventure possibilities I'd give it a control room. Heck, these are Ancients so I'd give it six control rooms.

If it was built by Ancients it was likely built by a Grandchild. Grandfather himself would have completed the thing, and/or translated it into a pocket universe. That it is unfinished means there are some construction equipment lying around, maybe whatever lifeforms that were to be planted on it hidden in stasis, etc. Grandfather was usually pretty good at cleaning up, or at least bombing rivals and leaving only craters and odd bits to find, so what killed off the workers here? Virus, like the Zho homeworld, or something more exotic?

I'm just troubled by why Grandfather would leave the thing up.

Maybe he liked the way the starlight reflected off of it ? No way to know.

I thought about putting a ring world on my Starship Wanderer web site, then I moved that site into my Traveller site.

It would be thousands of Fractal Terrain 3 worlds. I decided I wanted to spend my time on other things. especially after I realized I couldn't just generate random worlds, the ends had to match.

 

[Highorbit_drifter]

Maybe he liked the way the starlight reflected off of it ? No way to know.

I thought about putting a ring world on my Starship Wanderer web site, then I moved that site into my Traveller site.

It would be thousands of Fractal Terrain 3 worlds. I decided I wanted to spend my time on other things. especially after I realized I couldn't just generate random worlds, the ends had to match.

The thing appears to be 'unfinished'

Even their approach to building a ringworld
puzzles the experts. It circles a dim MI V star at less than 30
million kilometers. A narrow band less than 100,000 kilometers
wide, it still has an inner surface area equal to 25,000 Terras.
However, the Leenitakot ringworld's construction looks to be
unfinished, without soils, atmosphere or any provision for life
to live on its inner surface

Grandfather did like to clean up after the war, and help surviving Chirper populations become Droyne again. The Leenitakot system has a waterworld with over 2.4 million chirpers on it. So maybe Grandfather just hasn't gotten this far yet? And when he does - look out.

Or its not supposed to be a ringworld at all. Its a framework for something else? An early type of pocket universe maker? It collects hydrogen to make suns?

In any case I wouldn't map the inner surface in a conventional way - even IF the thing was able to support life. Ringworld itself notes there were island clusters that were 1:1 scale replicas of Terra, Mars and several other worlds. Just generate a random world map for the area a group of PCs might find themselves in - if they move out of that area then just knock out another map.

As for the OTU ringworld, the inner floor is probably whatever passes for scrith, maybe sculpted into mountains/rivers/etc., but maybe just smooth, but with no rock and soil yet applied. The framework for a world. If that is the case there has got to be a zillion robots ready to start sculpting that world, probably hiding in the walls of the world (if there).

 

[mike wightman]

I still think that it is part of the mechanism for pinching off a pocket universe.

The original builder never got the chance to finish the project for whatever reason.

Spoiler:

According to the new canon of MgT Secret of the Ancients more than just Grandfather survived the Ancient war by the way

It may be a trap, it may have a control centre hidden away in a smaller pocket universe, plenty of adventure possibility.

 

[savage]

I still think that it is part of the mechanism for pinching off a pocket universe.

The original builder never got the chance to finish the project for whatever reason.

Spoiler:

According to the new canon of MgT Secret of the Ancients more than just Grandfather survived the Ancient war by the way

It may be a trap, it may have a control centre hidden away in a smaller pocket universe, plenty of adventure possibility.

Possibly but if it's in this world the PU is vulnerable to Known Space. The device may be used to create them only. Or was a one time usage (very OTU approach). If that was its purpose, perhaps its portable, transportable.

The star goes nova, teleports the ring 360 parsecs away chippers and all.

 

[Carlobrand]

Boy am I late to this party. So, the Lenikravitz system has this ringworld AND a water world?? Either that's a very crowded little habitable zone, or this ring is a LOT less than 30 million kilometers - in which case why mention the 30 million?

Gotta say though, flat expanse in vacuum under bright light - seems like an ideal place to build solar-powered factories.

 

[Garyius2003]

Props....

Domes and solar power