I'm not even certain Force Fields capable of holding atmosphere in are in the cards until above the Ancient peak TL22 or so.
Ringworld (CT type)
- Thread starter Garyius2003
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I'm not even certain Force Fields capable of holding atmosphere in are in the cards until above the Ancient peak TL22 or so.
It only works if the grav plate tech is mineral or solar based for energy.
But walls are a nice thing to have.
Chuck Anumia
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Garyius2003
SOC-13
I don't know if even the Hivers could get everyone on board for that, though. Even with the 3I, Zho, and Doggies... on board: Maybe 10 years to build ships and set up production lines for wall sections and grav plates for the walls and support gear and assembly bots. 20-30 years to make the walls, while still making more ships. A century to fill in the 2,000 km strip and begin to expand it. The effort would get more efficient on mining and filling, but would have to ship from further out.
Why would the cultures go all out, though? Maybe a Hiver religion that fill it is a test to become worthy to become one with (a god, the stars, the force)?
At TL13-15, I just don't see the ring filling up even with a complete cultural effort from all the regional peoples. Societies just do not last that long. At TL16 things get a little better, but even there you can only blow up a star, not turn it off and mine it for material.
I am thinking TL 18-19, which means a crash research and upgrade programs that itself would take centuries alongside the wall and fill project.
Why would the cultures go all out, though? Maybe a Hiver religion that fill it is a test to become worthy to become one with (a god, the stars, the force)?
At TL13-15, I just don't see the ring filling up even with a complete cultural effort from all the regional peoples. Societies just do not last that long. At TL16 things get a little better, but even there you can only blow up a star, not turn it off and mine it for material.
I am thinking TL 18-19, which means a crash research and upgrade programs that itself would take centuries alongside the wall and fill project.
If you've got the walls and spin, the grav is unneeded (and in fact, counterproductive).
See, you have to have the walls pretty much either way - they keep the air from simply flowing away.
If you have 1 Atm of surface pressure and 1G, you need roughly 150km tall walls. That 1G can come from spin, from grav, or from a combination...
if you lose the gravity simulation (either by slowing spin or by turning off gravity) the air expands away from the ring, and flows over the sides.
Now, the thing is... 150 km is only good for maintaing atmosphere for about 5K to 10K years. 1600 km should be good for a few million years, but is about 11x the height, and probably 20x the mass.
If you use repulsor beams on poles to "push down" the atmosphere, you might get better pressure retention long term, but then you're dealing with more machinery to fail.
The following was referenced for altitude height purposes: https://www.fas.org/spp/military/docops/army/ref_text/chap5im.htm
Garyius2003
SOC-13
I don't know if even the Hivers could get everyone on board for that, though. Even with the 3I, Zho, and Doggies... on board: Maybe 10 years to build ships and set up production lines for wall sections and grav plates for the walls and support gear and assembly bots. 20-30 years to make the walls, while still making more ships. A century to fill in the 2,000 km strip and begin to expand it. The effort would get more efficient on mining and filling, but would have to ship from further out.
Why would the cultures go all out, though? Maybe a Hiver religion that the fill is a test to become worthy to become one with (a god, the stars, the force)?
At TL13-15, I just don't see the ring filling up even with a complete cultural effort from all the regional peoples. Societies just do not last that long. At TL16 things get a little better, but even there you can only blow up a star, not turn it off and mine it for material.
I am thinking TL 18-19, which means a crash research and upgrade programs that itself would take centuries alongside the wall and fill project.
Why would the cultures go all out, though? Maybe a Hiver religion that the fill is a test to become worthy to become one with (a god, the stars, the force)?
At TL13-15, I just don't see the ring filling up even with a complete cultural effort from all the regional peoples. Societies just do not last that long. At TL16 things get a little better, but even there you can only blow up a star, not turn it off and mine it for material.
I am thinking TL 18-19, which means a crash research and upgrade programs that itself would take centuries alongside the wall and fill project.
In T5, Ringworlds are specified at TL27 (so Experimental at TL24). Rigid Dyson spheres are at TL29 (p.509). Many-habitat cluster Dyson spheres are TL24 so could start to happen on an experimental basis at TL21, if someone had a really good reason.
Or how about Bishop rings? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bishop_Ring_(habitat)
Forrest Bishop's 1997 proposal is basically a smaller Iain Banks-style Culture Orbital made from carbon nanotubes. Carbon nanotubes can be made on an experimental basis today at TL8. So should be up and running as a mature technology at TL11 and at an advanced stage by Imperial maximum TL15.
Or you might bump all that up a tech level and say what we can do today is too small-scale to count even as experimental. That's still "only" TL12 for the mature technology.
Or how about Bishop rings? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bishop_Ring_(habitat)
Forrest Bishop's 1997 proposal is basically a smaller Iain Banks-style Culture Orbital made from carbon nanotubes. Carbon nanotubes can be made on an experimental basis today at TL8. So should be up and running as a mature technology at TL11 and at an advanced stage by Imperial maximum TL15.
Or you might bump all that up a tech level and say what we can do today is too small-scale to count even as experimental. That's still "only" TL12 for the mature technology.
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Chuck Anumia
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Longevity
The double purpose of a ringworld is both to have more space than ever will be needed for a sophont race to habitat and the ability to keep those life forms sustained for millennium.
(Right?)
The double purpose of a ringworld is both to have more space than ever will be needed for a sophont race to habitat and the ability to keep those life forms sustained for millennium.
(Right?)
The trouble with Ringworlds in Traveller is that they make starships superfluous.
If the ringworld is uninhabitable and incomplete. why bother visiting it? If you want a staging base for an invasion, a lonely asteroid belt in a backwater system makes more sense.
If the ringworld is habitable, it has the equivalent land area of three million planets or [FONT=arial,helvetica]272 entire Imperiums. Which would put ones entire campaign (and that of every other game master on Earth) in a single star system. So who needs starships?
You could probably fit the unwrapped planets of the Imperium, Vargr, Hiver, Aslan, and Zodani in half the space between the narrow edges of a ringworld.
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If the ringworld is uninhabitable and incomplete. why bother visiting it? If you want a staging base for an invasion, a lonely asteroid belt in a backwater system makes more sense.
If the ringworld is habitable, it has the equivalent land area of three million planets or [FONT=arial,helvetica]272 entire Imperiums. Which would put ones entire campaign (and that of every other game master on Earth) in a single star system. So who needs starships?
You could probably fit the unwrapped planets of the Imperium, Vargr, Hiver, Aslan, and Zodani in half the space between the narrow edges of a ringworld.
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A lot depends upon state of completion.
If it's just a stable spaceframe, then it's just an enigma, and potentially, a source of high-tech goodies. It's viable for a couple of one-shots, or even a single campaign, but would still require the PC's to have ships to be able to get supplies in order to succeed.
If it's been filled with atmosphere, water, and soil, but not planted, or only planted with plantlife incompatible with the PC species, or planted only with materials that are almost inedible, again, a ship for supplies is essential to success.
Once you get to animals, the odds are good that a ship becomes irrelevant once one arrives, unless one is obliged to report. For many people, it would be unsatisfying on as a Traveller location, as there's still no one to talk to.
If you've got sentients, yes you can have an entire campaign totally on the ringworld, with no need to go anywhere else. But that still doesn't make ships totally obsolete - asteroid defense, raw materials for continued industry, and of course, replacement volatiles due to the slow boil-off all require either interdimensional transport or ships of some kind.
It would take 1000+ years to populate a ring world from the existing 3I universe.
Everyone would want it. Near infinite resources. No one can be trusted with it by other races. Studying the thing takes decades if not centuries.
It would be become a centerpiece of attention, but not the only thing going on. It's like B5 except not manageable.
There are alternatives. No government would be dumb enough to put all their eggs in an alien built basket.
Everyone would want it. Near infinite resources. No one can be trusted with it by other races. Studying the thing takes decades if not centuries.
It would be become a centerpiece of attention, but not the only thing going on. It's like B5 except not manageable.
There are alternatives. No government would be dumb enough to put all their eggs in an alien built basket.
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BlackBat242
SOC-14 1K
Only if the Ref & players want it to.
Yes... you COULD "have an entire campaign totally on the ringworld"- but absolutely nothing about a ringworld says you HAVE TO!
Chuck Anumia
SOC-14 1K
I Agree
And thus the ringworld could become a target of other governments who want what others have (or think they have)
And thus the ringworld could become a target of other governments who want what others have (or think they have)
And thus the ringworld could become a target of other governments who want what others have (or think they have)
Exactly. The thing because as much of a curse as a blessing. How could the Vargr or K'ree resist. Even dropping a sector fleet in the star system would not keep everyone out.
Chuck Anumia
SOC-14 1K
Battle Plan
Would a ringworld be easier or harder to defend?
Does it become a good place to do battle?
Hhhhmmm...
Would a ringworld be easier or harder to defend?
Does it become a good place to do battle?
Larry Niven's Ringworld is easy to defend, and enemies would be insane to do battle there.
The superconducting cables buried in the ring create a titanic electromagnetic field. It can manipulate the sun in the center, causing it to emit a solar flare. A jet of plasma several million miles long.
Which then lased in the violet. A titanic scale gas laser.
Imagine what would happen to an enemy battlefleet, when it got hit by a laser beam with a diameter of ten kilometers, with an energy of three times ten to the twenty-seventh power ergs per second, and a beam lasting for about an hour. The image of a group of moths in a blast furnace springs to mind.
Occupying a Ringworld and controlling it and its defenses are two different things. As mentioned, it would take 1000+ years to figure the place out if your completely dedicated to the initiative. At that tech level it is doubtful that TL15 Imperium and the others are going to figure anything out quickly.
Also, the calculations on land mass vs the Imperium are probably off. We really only have a good picture of Imperium mainworlds and only rare glimpses at other system worlds.
