Robots and Synthetics in the Third Imperium

[Ulsyus]

minds fit bodies and bodies fit minds, yes?

and on what basis would a physically and mentally inferior human tell a superior human that it was sane or insane?

That's a not-so-uncommon trope. Khan in the Star Trek setting is a straightforward one, that was revisited nicely in the "Into Darkness" movie. Gataca was another good poke at the issue of the value of individuals based on their inherent capabilities as described by their DNA.

I thought The Fifth Element had a bit of a laugh at it though, the Perfect Being (with her oh-so-dense DNA) still being a creature of vulnerabilities and frailties, now matter how much she could do and know intrinsically. It was those other elements that made the character approachable and knowable, as opposed to the supermen of Gataca.

Has anyone cast genetically enhanced wonders in their campaigns? Had the Imperial nobility bred and altered to head in a direction the Bene Gesserit would approve of?

 

[Ulsyus]

I was doing some general trawling, and in the MT supplement Survival Margin on p30 was an interesting reference in a TAS entry dated 332-1121:

Regents from IRIS were compelled to eliminate the individual who claims himself to be the "real" Strephon when thy were denied permission
to conduct a number of routine tests. These tests are required of all would-be successors in order to determine the validity of their claims. The tests
are designed to discover if the test subject is either a robot or a cloned entity.

1. If it's in this supplement, it's canon isn't it?
2. Would an individual's status as a cloned entity prevent them from legally inheriting a noble title?
3. If 2. is answered in the affirmative, what impact would this have on nobles in the 3I considering having a back-up clone prepared for an untimely demise?

 

[SanDragon]

Survival Margin, page 28, From the Journals of Emperor Strephon Aella Alkhalakoi:

"Who are these IRIS people?"

Is IRIS canon? Is it?!

Also, it was the most overpowered career I have ever seen, and it was published in Dragon magazine #35... Oh, wait-a-minute... That was IBIS... Never mind!

 

[aramis]

That IRIS exists in canon is true.

The statements by Strephon in Survival Margin make it out to be a new agency that he was unaware of, presumably to be used to discredit himself, and again, presumably, created by Lucan.

So, by 1135, IRIS is in existence in Lucan's Imperium... but in 1116, it didn't exist.

 

[Ulsyus]

Challenge #33 p11 describes IRIS being created in the year 622 by Arbellatra. The article gives a sufficient summary for referees to be able to use the organisation. I don't have access to my hard copies don't have soft copies of the later Challenge magazines, but I believe a later issue had the info needed to generate characters who'd had careers in IRIS.

So it is canon. The first Challenge article makes it seem like there was clear interaction and direction of IRIS by Strephon prior to the assassination. This also seems to be unsynchronised. The Norris journal entry on p28 makes it clear he hasn't heard of them, but that doesn't seem to be what the Challenge article is getting at.

The supplement gives anecdotal hints at who and what they are, whereas the article provides a clear description of what it is and what it's mandate was. So, which would be MORE canon: the supplement or the magazine?

 

[aramis]

Challenge #33 p11 describes IRIS being created in the year 622 by Arbellatra. The article gives a sufficient summary for referees to be able to use the organisation. I don't have access to my hard copies don't have soft copies of the later Challenge magazines, but I believe a later issue had the info needed to generate characters who'd had careers in IRIS.

So it is canon. The first Challenge article makes it seem like there was clear interaction and direction of IRIS by Strephon prior to the assassination. This also seems to be unsynchronised. The Norris journal entry on p28 makes it clear he hasn't heard of them, but that doesn't seem to be what the Challenge article is getting at.

The supplement gives anecdotal hints at who and what they are, whereas the article provides a clear description of what it is and what it's mandate was. So, which would be MORE canon: the supplement or the magazine?

Supplement.

IRIS' canonically doesn't exist prior to the rebellion. Consider the Magazine to be their propaganda...

 

[mike wightman]

Aren't Dave Nilsen and Frank Chadwick on record as retconning away IRIS entirely?

The in-universe statements by Strephon are basically there is no IRIS and there never has been...

time to check the interview transcripts again...

 

[Ulsyus]

Supplement.

IRIS' canonically doesn't exist prior to the rebellion. Consider the Magazine to be their propaganda...

No worries. So I'll go back to a statement from Survival Margin then:

These tests are required of all would-be successors in order to determine the validity of their claims. The tests
are designed to discover if the test subject is either a robot or a cloned entity.

This seems to indicate to me that there's at the very least a preference, if not an outright proscription against a clone of the Emperor being able to regain their throne after the previous iteration became an ex-iteration.

Does this fit in with the general reading of practice and precedence in the 3I?

 

[Nathan Brazil]

Throwing gasoline into the fire, I suggest you refer to Duke Norris' use of his clones in the TNE setting and later in 1248. The Domain of Deneb was no longer officially the 3I after Arrival Vengeance, but it was still based on Imperial culture. How much drift from that pre-Rebellion Imperial sentiment, you guys tell me.

 

[nobby-w]

Survival Margin, page 28, From the Journals of Emperor Strephon Aella Alkhalakoi:

"Who are these IRIS people?"

Is IRIS canon? Is it?![ . . . ]

There is a section in one of the JTAS editions about generating IRIS characters. Strip out the psionics and anagathics and you can use it as a generic spook service character generation system.

The way I used it was to have the player do a couple of terms in some other service like Navy or Marines and then transfer to the spook services. This could be a civilian CIA or KGB (combined internal/external security) or Naval/Military Intelligence. You could make a rule that the character has to do a stint in Intelligence School if you're using an extended character generation system.

 

[aramis]

No worries. So I'll go back to a statement from Survival Margin then:


This seems to indicate to me that there's at the very least a preference, if not an outright proscription against a clone of the Emperor being able to regain their throne after the previous iteration became an ex-iteration.

Does this fit in with the general reading of practice and precedence in the 3I?

Also in Survival Margin:

From the Journals of Emperor Strephon Aella Alkhalikoi:

Who are these IRIS people?

You'd think I'd have heard of them once or twice.

Who owns them, and what are they getting at? Besides the obvious, of course, attempting to place themselves as the Emperor Brokers. Perhaps someone should explain the Moot to them. For that matter, perhaps someone should explain the Moot to the Moot.

So why is Lucan playing along? Unless he assumes they are real, and if he admits his ignorance he'll somehow undercut his claim?

Perhaps IRIS is on to something after all, if this insecurity about revealed knowledge affects even the claimants themselves. Certainly I'd undercut my miserable, pyrrhic claim if I stood up and said I'd never heard of them.
​

It's pretty clear that they exist. Explicitly so, from SM. Multiple entries detailing bases held and abandoned.

And a clear denial of knowledge of them by Strephon. Who is, by the way, established as the real Strephon in SM.

They are real in canon - but are not legitimate. They are a sham, a maneuver, in the war, one cut short by the declaration of the Regency, the Reindependence of the Julian League, the reconquering of the Solomani Sphere, and the massive waves of virus.

Very real, but very not legit. Claims of their prior existence are all propaganda released by them. That they actively train psionicists other than at the legit institutes at earth and the Marches... they're committing treason. But no one is in a place to call them upon it.

 

[Ulsyus]

And a clear denial of knowledge of them by Strephon. Who is, by the way, established as the real Strephon in SM.

They are real in canon - but are not legitimate. They are a sham, a maneuver, in the war, one cut short by the declaration of the Regency, the Reindependence of the Julian League, the reconquering of the Solomani Sphere, and the massive waves of virus.

Very real, but very not legit. Claims of their prior existence are all propaganda released by them. That they actively train psionicists other than at the legit institutes at earth and the Marches... they're committing treason. But no one is in a place to call them upon it.

Well, that seems to have been a bit of a mess then. I appreciate that the organisation was, eventually, written off as a sham, but the Challenge material certainly presented otherwise. Was this just a case of left-hand right-hand not knowing, or was there a change of policy after they'd been introduced?

 

[Ulsyus]

Throwing gasoline into the fire, I suggest you refer to Duke Norris' use of his clones in the TNE setting and later in 1248. The Domain of Deneb was no longer officially the 3I after Arrival Vengeance, but it was still based on Imperial culture. How much drift from that pre-Rebellion Imperial sentiment, you guys tell me.

I think the difference there was that Norris didn't produce a clone into which he was planning to put his personality & memories in order to extend his rule over the Domain, but to produce an heir. There's a difference there, and the way it was presented gave it an air of accepted practice, or at least it seemed so to me.

 

[aramis]

Well, that seems to have been a bit of a mess then. I appreciate that the organisation was, eventually, written off as a sham, but the Challenge material certainly presented otherwise. Was this just a case of left-hand right-hand not knowing, or was there a change of policy after they'd been introduced?

Itwas presented as a variant, not as canon...but then people on the net feeds took it as canonical.

 

[Ulsyus]

Itwas presented as a variant, not as canon...but then people on the net feeds took it as canonical.

So, if the SM material is canon and the Chall. article was a variant, then does that make the suggestion that a cloned Strephon would be an unacceptable candidate under 3I law?

 

[aramis]

So, if the SM material is canon and the Chall. article was a variant, then does that make the suggestion that a cloned Strephon would be an unacceptable candidate under 3I law?

The only law that matters is whether the Moot accepts him. It has one duty, and two authorities:
D: To continue the Imperium
A1: To pick the new emperor
A2: To dissolve the Imperium

Whether clone or not, if the moot accepts them, they ARE the Emperor... even if the old one wasn't kin.

 

[Ulsyus]

Whether clone or not, if the moot accepts them, they ARE the Emperor... even if the old one wasn't kin.

Is it too much to expect that the Moot would have had laws or precedence not to keep picking one Eternal Emperor rather than their successor? I know it didn't happen in the lead-up to 1115, but was there something specifically prohibiting it?

 

[aramis]

Is it too much to expect that the Moot would have had laws or precedence not to keep picking one Eternal Emperor rather than their successor? I know it didn't happen in the lead-up to 1115, but was there something specifically prohibiting it?

Given Norris and Seldrian, nope.
(Seldrian is a gender swapped clone of Norris. And his heir.)

 

[Ulsyus]

Given Norris and Seldrian, nope.
(Seldrian is a gender swapped clone of Norris. And his heir.)

Ah, but there's a big difference between a leader who's had their memories transferred into a healthy young new clone, a wet-suit to coin a phrase (or has someone used that before?), and a clone raised to be a new individual as independent of the true-parent as a regular simul-bichromosonal child.

One would be the continuation, through technology, of the person (as such) of the leader until something either damaged the personality transfer or destroyed the medium into which it could be deposited. The other is a person, who may share the DNA of their parent to a far greater degree than is naturally found, but who has through their growth possibly the chance to develop their own ideas, opinions and perspectives.

 

[aramis]

Ah, but there's a big difference between a leader who's had their memories transferred into a healthy young new clone, a wet-suit to coin a phrase (or has someone used that before?), and a clone raised to be a new individual as independent of the true-parent as a regular simul-bichromosonal child.

One would be the continuation, through technology, of the person (as such) of the leader until something either damaged the personality transfer or destroyed the medium into which it could be deposited. The other is a person, who may share the DNA of their parent to a far greater degree than is naturally found, but who has through their growth possibly the chance to develop their own ideas, opinions and perspectives.

If nothing else, it shows that the Clone is considered an eligible heir.

So it's possible that Lucan II might be the mind of 50 YO Lucan I in a new apparently 20YO force-grown body, and named as heir and true-son, by a still living Lucan I... then "Updated" regularly to match Lucan I's mind...