Robots and Synthetics in the Third Imperium

[Ackehece]

Is there meant to be a game mechanic that leads to the -1 San per month for Decon? I couldn't see anything in Bot Maker or the errata

If you assign a QREB rating to a bot it will have a repair period that counts down.
QREBs Quality and Period table Pg.194
Period is the time between Reliability Downgrades
On average Qrebs=5 the period would be six months
that means every 6 months qRebs would reduce by 1
If a reliability check fails then (check flux for mishaps )- referee can determine what bad side effect (san reduction or structure deterioration occurs) if qRebs=-5 the deterioration will occur rapidly

Reliability check is a daily roll and an object has a potential failure if the Reliability is less than or equal to flux...

you can stave off reliability downgrades - IROAN Pg. 191 (hope you have a good tech on board!)
you can deep store hardware in quality storage and this will prevent physical decay( non useage) - but the minds that are not positronic or electronic can not be stored as they continue to deteriorate Pg. 362

 

[mike wightman]

Or you could just build a better robot brain in the first place...

 

[rancke]

Hans - back to T5 (I know that is not what you want but I figure you might be interested)

Oh, I'm interested in what T5 means for the OTU all right. Very interested.

Pg 573 BBB- the real limit to robots in the T5 Universe
Rust/Decon/Onwee - robot illness that is a result of a QREBS failure
Crazed kill bots are not my friend!o:

That's nice, but it doesn't tell me what I want to know: What is the impact on the Third Imperium setting? Low service life is one of the more promising suggestions for reducing the economic effectiveness of robot workers, so, please, tell me more.


Hans

 

[rancke]

Or you could just build a better robot brain in the first place...

But a better robot brain would be a more expensive robot brain, wouldn't it?


Hans

 

[Ackehece]

But a better robot brain would be a more expensive robot brain, wouldn't it?


Hans

Most assuredly yeah. ^_^;;;

 

[Ackehece]

Oh, I'm interested in what T5 means for the OTU all right. Very interested.



That's nice, but it doesn't tell me what I want to know: What is the impact on the Third Imperium setting? Low service life is one of the more promising suggestions for reducing the economic effectiveness of robot workers, so, please, tell me more.


Hans

Short service life on the average bot and being around 20 to 30 years cost of standard imperium labour rates to build would in most cases argue against wide spread usage of bots.
If you want something with low maintenance and low cost you should go labour pool. If you desire a unique, capable of entering places of extreme danger, to show off your wealth, or to cover a desperate need due to labour shortage you might turn to a bot ( better buy that service contract), a suicidal self-aware missile, etc you might decide to use a brain.
Long term storage capable ships should use a brain that is either electronic or positronic. This avoids the brain not being able to shut down for extended periods and lessens the chance that stored ships that can take care of themselves to a point will fail a maintenance cycle and go insane. I think I know where virus came from now. Oo.
I see bots in the 3rd Imperium as toys of the wealthy (might explain the onwee) and the desperate.

 

[rancke]

I see bots in the 3rd Imperium as toys of the wealthy (might explain the onwee) and the desperate.

That sounds eminently satisfactory. I wouldn't want robots to be completely ruled out. I just want them not to be less expensive than human labor, so that some extra consideration has to apply.


Hans

 

[Ackehece]

That sounds eminently satisfactory. I wouldn't want robots to be completely ruled out. I just want them not to be less expensive than human labor, so that some extra consideration has to apply.


Hans

Janitor Bot 4672 killing a school would definitely lead to social upheaval at least in the sector that gets the news... A series of crazed decon bots murdering the populace of a city can have serious backlash social consequences for Robot usage in the entire imperium.

Which leads to the following:
Maintenance (IROAN) must be mandated to be carried out by a human/sophant so that mental stability checks are completed to the satisfaction of the owner/populace.... If bots can maintain bots price for maintenance drops to the price of 2 maintenance bots amortized over a long period of time.

You can get to the place that you have the fox watching the hen house when bots maintain bots (or virus watching virus ..... mu ha ha ha hac ha...hack cough...if your a TNE fan)


still worth it in some cases
If you have a decent engineer (physical repair) and ships counselor (only career that can fix sanity points) to maintain a bot on a ship (or a ships brain)- you can still use a bot as an adjunct or replacement. Still useful, just expensive normally, cheaper to use a sophant.

the position of Gunner:Missile becomes interesting too. With Autonomous sentient missiles the gunner must allow the missiles to game against each other for high score kills etc (and to not interact with the crew) so that the missiles don't self destruct ... gunners become defacto counselors - got to keep the missiles entertained! o: self aware missiles Pg. 524-525

 

[Ulsyus]

That sounds eminently satisfactory. I wouldn't want robots to be completely ruled out. I just want them not to be less expensive than human labor, so that some extra consideration has to apply.
Hans

Convenience is another factor to consider. A few little bots (I'm thinking Farscape here) on a ship to help with diagnostics to ensure that maintenance is carried out where and when required could go a long way to cutting down on crew costs.

Maintenance (IROAN) must be mandated to be carried out by a human/sophant so that mental stability checks are completed to the satisfaction of the owner/populace.

If units are sufficiently advanced, then even a unit of average Quality (0) shouldn't need servicing too frequently. Advanced diagnostic tools (serviced annually) should be checked regularly to see if they've identified an issue that needs further consideration, but putting the unit into the shop every month? That seems a little excessive. The multi-function printer units at my office cop an absolute pounding, and they need to be checked out from time to time, but the self-diagnostics tell us when something needs the tech, and they come out for a short time to fix the error. I know a 'bot is a little more complex than that, but I believe the principle stands.

On reflection, the servicing required under QREBS could do with further clarification on what it actually is.

 

[rnadams2]

I'm curious as to the origin of that "culturally biased" bit. I've heard it before - I think I've even said it on occasion - but I can't find an actual reference to cite.

I seem to recall a reference to an archaeological mission on Terra turning up a VHS copy of Terminator....

 

[WistfulD]

I, for one, have never had a problem with "people don't use robots to replace people because when they do, people looking for jobs get mad." It worked in Isaac Azimov's books. Likewise, people did complain when robots entered the real world factories. They didn't succeed in stopping them from coming, but they could have. Given that the Traveller universe seems to have nothing more than expendable people (heck, I killed three off before I finished character creation), jobs protection is all the justification I need.

As for T5: since maintenance isn't included in previous editions, this (rather extreme) maintenance factor added in T5 seems to radically alter the apparent value of a type of technology. This is one of those examples where a change in the rules changes the gaming universe. To me, this seems to be something that exists/should exist in a slight alternate universe than the universe of CT.

 

[salochin999]

Planets with tens of billions of people and lots of robots would have lots of economic and social problems imo so planets with high enough tech but very large populations might deliberately not allow too many robots or will likely be some kind of dystopia
- mass unemployment, violent slums, mass welfare
- "time machine" style Eloi live life of ease tended by robots
- various forms of population control policy from voluntary to extreme draconian depending on govt type

(Logan's Run, Elysium, Time Machine etc)

On the other hand small, hitech populations though could have more robots than people, robot cops, robot taxi cabs, robot servants etc.

If the planet had suffered some kind of tech regression low tech planets could have them also e.g. robots tending the life support domes for population who had suffered a tech regression.

In other words vary it from planet to planet.

#

Also I have it that the nobility / wealthy try and keep stuff to themselves where possible even if it is technically illegal on that planet: anagathics, cybernetics, robotics etc so wealthy nobles might have cyborg bodyguards (disguised) or data / servant droids even on planets which otherwise have few.

 

[Meeko100]

I can see robots filling the background roles of manufacturing, and the like.

But for things like flying a small (or large) spaceship? Hell, even construction is have a hard time seeing.

If I had a robot pilot, what would it know when I command it to jink to dodge a pirate shooting at me. A small chance, but one that I'd want covered if I'm paying 30+ MCr on a free trader. Wouldn't it be a bit easy to follow a computerized, repeatable movement? Would the mechbot know that the jump drive just got shot by a pulse laser instead of just the o-rings breaking? How would it work with out sensors to check the codes the drive kicks out from a diagnostics program? Is it smart enough to look at the internal and determine accurately what the issue is? If so, then they'd be very viable crew. But I don't see them as being that smart. My autozone tester can't manage to determine a fuse is out on my truck when I go there. How can I trust a robot with the same stuff to do what's right to my expensive spaceship.

*snip long rant about the lack of utility of robots in construction*

I can see robots in a few but nit many the ones often thought of

*Robot Deliverymen
*Robot Manufacturing
*Robot Farmers (if supervised by a real farmer)
*Robot Miners (again, if a trained tech is there supervising)
*Automated Security (not very safe, but if you really dont want Johnny snooping your compound d out, give your employees tags that the guns/tasers won't shoot, and then anybody getting too inquisitive would find a nasty reaction. Likely illegal though.)
*Robot shoe shiners

I dont think that robots mesh too well with police work. You may have to do some complex thought making to make the 5-0 bots not shoot any random guy, or to have them be good for investigating the neighbors fighting. Police work is rather delicate, and a bit to me is a bit like a hammer.

 

[Ulsyus]

Would the mechbot know that the jump drive just got shot by a pulse laser instead of just the o-rings breaking? How would it work with out sensors to check the codes the drive kicks out from a diagnostics program? Is it smart enough to look at the internal and determine accurately what the issue is? If so, then they'd be very viable crew. But I don't see them as being that smart. My autozone tester can't manage to determine a fuse is out on my truck when I go there. How can I trust a robot with the same stuff to do what's right to my expensive spaceship.

What TL are you envisaging these 'bots being produced at? If you're talking 9 or 10, then fair enough. But from p501 of the BBB I bring this gift of hope:

TL-16 Artificial Persons. The widespread availability of artificial persons, practical robots, artificial intelligence in computers, and self-aware mechanisms replaces sophonts in most non-creative activities.

 

[Barrel]

Planets with tens of billions of people and lots of robots would have lots of economic and social problems imo so planets with high enough tech but very large populations might deliberately not allow too many robots or will likely be some kind of dystopia
- mass unemployment, violent slums, mass welfare
- "time machine" style Eloi live life of ease tended by robots
- various forms of population control policy from voluntary to extreme draconian depending on govt type

(Logan's Run, Elysium, Time Machine etc)

On the other hand small, hitech populations though could have more robots than people, robot cops, robot taxi cabs, robot servants etc.

If the planet had suffered some kind of tech regression low tech planets could have them also e.g. robots tending the life support domes for population who had suffered a tech regression.

In other words vary it from planet to planet.

#

Also I have it that the nobility / wealthy try and keep stuff to themselves where possible even if it is technically illegal on that planet: anagathics, cybernetics, robotics etc so wealthy nobles might have cyborg bodyguards (disguised) or data / servant droids even on planets which otherwise have few.

Maybe such worlds have a "robot tax" to fund welfare for those who can't get work due to everyone who can using robots for labor. The bulk of the populace spend all day in subsidized barracks watching TV and downing soma. They're expected to vote for the robot tax party, and riot if any politician tries to cut back the soma ration.

 

[Carlobrand]

Maybe such worlds have a "robot tax" to fund welfare for those who can't get work due to everyone who can using robots for labor. The bulk of the populace spend all day in subsidized barracks watching TV and downing soma. They're expected to vote for the robot tax party, and riot if any politician tries to cut back the soma ration.

If you don't have consumers for your production, you don't get production. Offworld export fills some of that, but where robots are most dominant and the economy most focused on export, population's likely to be low to begin with.

There being no such thing as a free lunch, the bulk of a large population must be doing something productive to generate income. Taxing the bots when the bots don't have a big enough market for their goods just means you end up with fewer bots as businesses fail and close.

 

[flykiller]

If Traveller 5 allows for synthetic humans, what would prevent a player from deciding that he or she would like to play one

the disadvantages of playing one.

and then because of genetic engineering, specify precisely what characteristics that his/her character should be? No more die rolling for character traits.

"traits" might require redefinition.

 

[Ulsyus]

"traits" might require redefinition.

They may not need it. A synthetic could have whatever traits were paid for. Want all physical traits at F? Not a problem for what in the circumstances is a most reasonable fee...

How a sophont with an inhuman combination of physical and mental traits could maintain a high social standing might be another matter. How they remain sane, within a boundary that is considered acceptable by mental health clinicians, could also be another matter.

 

[flykiller]

How a sophont with an inhuman combination of physical and mental traits could maintain a high social standing might be another matter.

How a sophont with an inhuman combination of physical and mental traits could fail to obtain a high social standing might be another matter.

How they remain sane

a very pertinent point. minds fit bodies and bodies fit minds, yes?

and on what basis would a physically and mentally inferior human tell a superior human that it was sane or insane?

 

[Carlobrand]

There's one point where robots really can't beat humans: humans are freely available. They reproduce themselves, mostly train themselves so all you have to do is the detail training, they mostly maintain themselves, and there's nothing you need to get rid of when they wear out - someone else deals with that. You basically rent them from themselves, agree on some package of income and sometimes other considerations, and if it's not working out you let them go and find another one. Depending on the nature of the local government, rent can sometimes be pretty cheap, but under certain government types the strings and limitations may make humans less attractive as an alternative.

The balance point is the point at where it costs more to rent the human - adjusted for output - than it would cost to buy or rent a robot. The robot can be more efficient, may produce more, but may involve significant capital investment and possibly maintenance costs. A portion of those costs may be recouped by selling the bot, assuming you're buying and not renting, but the resale price depends both on how much useful life it has and on how much of a market there is for a used version of that model, and the market can sometimes be volatile.