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Robots

Since the internal structure material volume is subject to exactly the same modifiers as the surface area (armour) calculation, just calculate the surface area of your shell (say a 2mx2mx3m box) and then figure out the volume and mass of an AV 1 shell of that area for each G that it needs to take.

FF&S spent a lot of time making that simple calculation seem complex, and using this approach makes designing "oddly shaped" starship hulls fairly straightforward, once you have realized what is buried in the design sequence...

And yes, I *do* spend too much time reverse engineering rules and design systems


Scott Martin
 
Originally posted by Scott Martin:
Since the internal structure material volume is subject to exactly the same modifiers as the surface area (armour) calculation, just calculate the surface area of your shell (say a 2mx2mx3m box) and then figure out the volume and mass of an AV 1 shell of that area for each G that it needs to take.
Huh? :confused:
Are you saying to claculate the surface area (a) of my "box" then multiply it by 1cm for the total shell material volume? Or, did they add in something else?
 
Long post / tangent warning. You know I've been working on simplifying FF&S right?

Calculate the surface area of your box, multiply by 1 cm, divide by the toughness of your material

This example will use FF&S-1 steel (at toughness 2.0, instead of the 2.86 in T4 / FF&S-2). For the aformentioned 2mx2mx3m box, the surface area is 32 m2, volume is 12 m3. For steel the internal structure volume is 0.016 cubic meters to support 1G structure (multiply this value by the max G you want it to take)

The shell takes the same volume (0.016 cubic meters) for each 1 AV you want it to have. steel has a density of 8, so this is 0.128t (128 kilos) for an AV of 1 and for each design G. (note 1)

If you multiply this base value by 2 you have a G-value of 1 and an AV 1 shell (which coincedentally are the minimums required for any vehicle in TNE)

For comparison, that's about 500 pounds for the structure and sheet metal on a car-sized object, which strikes me as a bit high but within the realms of believability.

an AV 10 shell is required for a spacecraft, and as written you need 10 AV for each G that a starship hull can produce (note 2)

As an aside, composite laminates are the lowest tech material I'd reccomend for hull materials on anything using mass-based thrusters, and crystaliron is where military hulls start to make sense (and bonded superdense is where you need to go for hulls that will actually stop lasers...)

This is so conceptually simple it boggles the mind that it wasn't explicitly worked through in FF&S (all of the base volumes are for spheres, which you can derive using an Excel spreadsheet) As a result it's too easy for most folks to grasp. FF&S noticed that hull designs were complex, and figured that most people would rather just have a formula (however baroque) to determine their hull and structural volumes without actually going into what they were doing, and making it difficult to build "custom" dimensional hulls (so figuring out the *actual* hull volume instead of fudging it)

If you want to do the math, there are significant volume savings to be had for hulls of more than 50 cm thickness. This is actually an issue for some of my orbital fortification designs ;) My rule of thumb is that if the armour thickness exceeds 1% of the smallest dimension of the hull I should probably put in the extra work and save a few Dtons.

Using the above box as an example, if you want 50 cm of hull armour it would take 16m^3 (32 square meters x 50 cm) for armour using the "base" system (more than the actual available volume!) but the actual internal volume leaves a 2 m "void" in the middle for 10 m^3 of armour.

"Structure" volume doesn't change, although for an example this extreme I'd calculate the structure based on the percentage of non-hull volume (saving 83% of the "structure" volume based on the assumption that armour plate has sufficient structural integrity without adding bracing to it. This is not worth the time to do with a real hull design, since the volume is generally less than 1% of total volume, even for lots of armour)

Scott Martin

Note 1:
but wait, don't we have G-Compensators? If the people don't have to take 6 G's, why does the frame of the starship? If the G-Comp fails, then the people are probably dead even if the hull holds together...

Note 2:
IMO One of the most stupid rules to ever be introduced in a "realistic" design system. In space your maximum speed (and thus what you have to armour against) is based on your fuel reserve, not your accelleration. In point of fact, trying to armour a FF&S starship against a chance collision (or KKM) is a bit like trying to stop anti-tank rounds by wrapping yourself in gelatin ;) Build the hull to hold in atmosphere, hold out non-penetrating radiation and call it good. (AV 10 is a decent call, although NASA designers would love to have this amount of weight margin to play with...)
 
Simpler explanation:

And if you know how "thick" you want your armour shell, just calculate it then determine the armour value (so "I want 10 cm of steel" = AV 20, 10 cm x toughness 2)

You still need to do the more complex math above to figure out the structural requirements for G-Compensation, but if I were to build FF&S again, I'd just have a table with "Base" hulls listing mass and volume for each G / AV based on materials starting at Steel and working my way up. Anyone who *really* wants to armour their starship with softwood deserves to do the extra math...

Scott Martin
 
I am having to think about some of the things you mentioned, Scott. In examining how I would design robots, I am trying to stick with the LBB2/HG/LBB8 pardigms of picking a hull and seeing what you can fit in. But, selecting the amount of structure you want is an important first step, I think. Working on it.
 
Hello . . .
Ok a little thread hijack here. I figure that robots will appear in T5. Is there any hint on if it will go the FF&S design system or more of a LBB2 plug and play system.
Looking at the posts here our engineering crowd is having a good time with math and while I wish them all the best I just need stats for the killer robot in room 7 in the space station of doom.

While the detail of FF&S or even Book 8 is very neat a “simplified” system would be best for game night. I am sure this has come up before I was just wondering if there were any hints of how the group was feeling about this?
 
^Sorry, just lost in the technotalk and getting concerned.

If I can make a suggestion...
Please consider making a distinction between the frames of a heavy duty cargobot and the delicately contoured curves of a pseudo-bio in your system.
 
Well, KG, one of the things at which I'm looking is the idea that pseudo-bios are twice as heavy. It just doesn't seem right to me.
 
Well, KG, one of the things at which I'm looking is the idea that pseudo-bios are twice as heavy. It just doesn't seem right to me.
I agree there is no need to make them out of starship hull armor if you don’t want to. Hmmm but if you did . . . .

Perhaps a lightweight/standard/heavy duty materials concept. Again the details and mechanics left to the scientists but this would seem to make sense on first blush. We can only imagine the strength of lightweight materials after another 5 tech levels. Look at bicycles. Just over the last two tech levels we have gone from the steel one gear tank on two wheels to carbon fiber and aluminum alloy. We had a bicycle from my grandmother’s time in our garage and the thing weighed a ton and had only a single gear! I can lift my aluminum alloy bike over my head with ease including its 21 speeds.

Well when the full color “101 Robots” book is published we can have a look over the designs more closely. :D

Should a book on robots also address the cybernetics question?
 
Should a book on robots also address the cybernetics question? [/QB]
Yes - cybernetics should be addressed with robotics.

And the key limitation on any robotic system should remain lack of independent thought/emotion. The machine appear to think - it just can't care or come up with truly independant ideas - no innovation. That's what makes it a robot instead of a sophant. Simulated emotion is fine in a robot, but only a sophant should be able to actually be creative and care about the results.
 
Another thought - a cyborg would be a robotically "enhanced" sophant (sophant brain/mind complete with creativity and caring)while a pseudo-bio would be a biologically "enhanced" robot (responds to programming only - maybe very sophisticated programming with unforseen results, but still programming.)
 
I like your distinctions there Newbee.

Cyborg: Biological first, Robot second
Android: Robot first, Bioligical second

Both represent intermediate steps between a fully mechanical Robot and a fully Biological Person.
 
The lines get really blurred though if you start talking about a fully mechanical sophant or a completely biological robot (geneered sp? viruses are a modern example of the later.) I don't personally believe a mechanical sophant is possible for many of the same reasons discussed earlier limiting the intellignence of robots - but it is a staple of Sci Fi. and at least alluded to in OTC.
 
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