Sailor and flyer ranks

[rancke]

If you have a planetary army that also covers the wet navy and the air force (Nautical Force Command and COAAC), would the sailor and flyer branches really have their own rank titles (Ensign ... Admiral, Pilot ... Air Marshal)? Or would the army's sailor branch and the army's flyer branch just use army ranks?

Also, Referee's Companion says that at TL11 land, water, and air traffic merge, so would the army of a TL11+ world even have a Nautical Force Command and a COAAC?

And, yes, I know it would depend on the world, but I'm speaking in generic terms. What would be the common setup?


Hans

 

[Reban]

I think it might depend more on the military heritage that the planetary forces draw on. From Earth history there are many models of how Army/Navy/Airforces are inter-related.

There might be a senior service by tradition or due to geographical influences. For example on a water world the Wet Navy might be the senior service with the Army being its naval infantry or marine branch and the airforce or COAAC being the fleet's air arm.

So heritage and geography influence organisation.

That holds up up to the "merge" at TL11 and to a certain extent beyond. In generic terms I think the edges will certainly blur between Army, Nautical Force Command and COAAC, but I think there will still be specialists.

Units that work mostly in sea and coastal areas will have skills that set them apart from pure infantry or armor despite having similar equipment. So while part of the army, they may still be grouped as a Sea Corps, Maritime Branch or Nautical Force Command for practical training, command and control purposes. Likewise for COAAC (Indeed COAAC may overlap with planetary space fleets).

Using the writers motto "write what you know" I pattern my Ground Forces Command on the Irish Defence Forces. Under An Army officer as Chief of Staff there are territorial commands for the army and an Air Corps and Naval Service. Technical specialties and military occupational specialties are supported by the various Service Support Corps, so signals or comms operators all receive there technical training from the Signal or CIS Corps. Everyone completes a basic infantry course (square bashing and basic soldiering skills) before going on to do corps or branch specific courses

 

[Drakon]

Using the writers motto "write what you know" I pattern my Ground Forces Command on the Irish Defence Forces. Under An Army officer as Chief of Staff there are territorial commands for the army and an Air Corps and Naval Service. Technical specialties and military occupational specialties are supported by the various Service Support Corps, so signals or comms operators all receive there technical training from the Signal or CIS Corps. Everyone completes a basic infantry course (square bashing and basic soldiering skills) before going on to do corps or branch specific courses

Each of the services are quite different in mission, and their structure and training is unique to each branch. While in the Marines, everyone is a rifleman, in the Navy, there is a more diversity in jobs and trainging. Infantry combat, or for that matter, any land mission is a far cry from running a complex piece of machinery that is both a vehicle and weapons platform. Fighting a ship is quite different from fighting a comparable strengh army unit.

In the US, the Air Force started off as a unit of the Army, and follows the rank structure. The Navy and the Marines have their own air units, but the Marines are essentially a sub branch of the Navy. An essential one at that, as one officer once said, "You can dogfight all day long in the skies, but if they are drinking beer in your officer's club, you've lost." You need ground troops to do the things that only ground troops can do. But you should not expect ground troops to be able to also run an electric and propulsion plant, or repair an aircraft radar set. Different mission, different objectives, different skill sets.

Since I'm ex Navy, any militaries I design would tend toward the Navy/Marine model, with air units being integrated into the two services, with Marine air primarily utilized for air support of Marine's missions, and Naval Air handling the strategic and logisitcs mission. There is also a strong national guard or colonial militia, but again those units would be structured and use Marine rank structure.

 

[rancke]

I think it might depend more on the military heritage that the planetary forces draw on. From Earth history there are many models of how Army/Navy/Airforces are inter-related.

There might be a senior service by tradition or due to geographical influences. For example on a water world the Wet Navy might be the senior service with the Army being its naval infantry or marine branch and the airforce or COAAC being the fleet's air arm.

So heritage and geography influence organisation.

I agree completely.

That holds up up to the "merge" at TL11 and to a certain extent beyond. In generic terms I think the edges will certainly blur between Army, Nautical Force Command and COAAC, but I think there will still be specialists.

Certainly there will be specialization. However, you already have that in the army: Infantry, cavalry, artillery, support, commando are all Military Occupational Specialties according to Mercenary. Just as there are navies with naval infantry instead of marines.

What struck me was that in the generic structure described in canon, the merging has apparently already happened. Nautical Force Command and COAAC are already part of the army. So wouldn't they both be an MOS just like infantry, cavalry, artillery, etc.? Naval aviators don't use Air Force ranks, do they?


Hans

 

[rancke]

Each of the services are quite different in mission, and their structure and training is unique to each branch. While in the Marines, everyone is a rifleman, in the Navy, there is a more diversity in jobs and trainging. Infantry combat, or for that matter, any land mission is a far cry from running a complex piece of machinery that is both a vehicle and weapons platform. Fighting a ship is quite different from fighting a comparable strengh army unit.

Except that at TL11, land, water, and air transport merge. Presumably at some point not too long after that everyone in the army, be they in the land, water, or air branch, are running similar pieces of machinery that are both vehicles and weapons platforms.


Hans

 

[BlackBat242]

In the US, the Air Force started off as a unit of the Army, and follows the rank structure.

For officers... their enlisted ranks use quite different names for the ranks, as well as insignia.

http://usmilitary.about.com/od/theorderlyroom/l/blenlrank.htm

 

[Reban]

Certainly there will be specialization. However, you already have that in the army: Infantry, cavalry, artillery, support, commando are all Military Occupational Specialties according to Mercenary. Just as there are navies with naval infantry instead of marines.

What struck me was that in the generic structure described in canon, the merging has apparently already happened. Nautical Force Command and COAAC are already part of the army. So wouldn't they both be an MOS just like infantry, cavalry, artillery, etc.?

Certainly there is no objection to a single unified rank structure if Nautical Force Command and COAAC are already part of the army.

What I think you are saying is that Flyer and Sailor should be a MOS and that rank structure should be the same as that for the Army.

The observation I'd make is that the difference in rank structure or the terms for ranks usually occur to 1). quickly show difference in skills and training and 2). to show differences in span of control.

I suppose the classic illustration is the difference between an Army Captain and a Naval Captain. In Traveller terms an Army Captain is O3 and a Naval Captain is O6.

It's common knowledge (*bear with me on this one) that in context a Captain commands a company or a warship.

*Of course on a world where every officer has the same rank structure it will be common knowledge that warships are commanded by Colonels.

Private Sailors and Captain Flyers will work fine if you have a totally integrate ground forces command with total inter-operability.

On the other hand a separate rank structure that says everyone in this organization is focused on flying operations or naval operations also works if those tasks encompass a large family of skills or specializations.

Short answer: a unified rank system will work if thats what you grow up with, on the other hand separate rank structures for flyers and sailor reflect unique aspects to those careers.

 

[Limburger59]

Extrapolating from Canada's integrated solution, it could be that the pay grades and insignias could be identical, while the color of the insignias and the titles could vary. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canadian_Forces_ranks_and_insignia