Second Survey-Is Physical Data Canon in Other Eras

[Nathan Brazil]

Can some Second Survey data can be considered canon in other eras? Census data all goes to pot, sure, during 7000+ years of human habitation. But what about physical data (Stars, planet size, atmosphere, hydrographics)? I ask because I am developing Map data in other eras past and future for my own use. I would like to specifically restrict the discussion to the OTU and try to keep data as canon as possible.

Eras future to Second Survey seem easy enough. Planet data gets modified appropriately due to Rebellion, Hard Times, New Era and 1248 using the rules from various books. So there hex locations and planet sizes and stars would stay the same. Maybe atmosphere or hydrographics stay the same (assuming no Black War or New Era changes or terraforming being undone).

For eras in the past, would the hex locations and mainworlds be applicable? I would think that except for tech level reasons, economics (ex. The Long Night) or colonization rationale (Terran and Vilani in GURPS Interstellar Wars), most planets of interest to the Third Imperium were of interest to be inhabited or reinhabited for exploitation by human empires going all the way back to the the Ziru Sirka or Zhodani. The hex locations, planet sizes and stars reflected in Second Survey should still be applicable. Or is this a wrong assumption?

Finally, due to the Secrets of the Ancients campaign, I am trying to develop some star map data for the Ancient's period before the Ancient's War. I making a homebrew for Droyne habitation using the Alien Module. Planets of interest would be worlds that in Second Survey have Ancient's Sites, Droyne or Chirpers and those which would be "Droyne Garden Worlds" (size 3 to 6, atmosphere 6 or 8 (probably 8), hydrosphere 3 +). Would hex positions, planet sizes and stars stay the same at least from a canon standpoint? OTOH from a real life standpoint, it is 300000 years ago and stars do move and so on.

Or are there better assumptions to use for different eras?

 

[rancke]

Mostly physical stats would be the same. There are a few reasons why they may not be so.

1) Worlds in eccentric orbits could have hydrography and even atmosphere changed as the world moves along in its orbit. Dinom is a prime example (and the only canonical example I can recall).

2) Terraforming can change the stats. Industrial pollution can turn a clear atmosphere into a tainted one[*] and I suppose rigorous anti-pollution measures could turn a tainted atmosphere into a clear one.

3) An asteroid impact could change the hydrographic percentage as could an event like the inundation of the Mediterranean Sea 5.33 million years ago.

[*] Oddly enough, none of the industrial[**] worlds in the Spinward Marches have industrial taints whereas a couple of low-/lowish-population ones have -- I've always thought the author of BtC made a mistake (or several) there.

[**] Industrial as in the trade classification.​

​

Finally, a system's UWP describes the world that the Scouts (or the equivalent organization in other eras) consider to be the mainworld. If for some reason the population of another world in the same system overtakes the original mainworld, the physical stats would change simply because they would be for a different world.


Hans

 

[inexorabletash]

In the recent past - and future - I would imagine:

A few instances of main world changing bodies within a hex. For example, the a colony world comes to dominate the former home world. Or the main world nukes itself back to the stone age, leaving the colony dominant

Many instances of terraforming improving a worlds' habitability. (Or play the clock backwards and the world is less habitable). That would affect atmosphere and hydrosphere, within limits. E.g probably not replacing an Exotic atmosphere.

Natural or artificial disasters could affect the planet. Comet strike, greenhouse gasses (runaway or otherwise), nuclear war, etc.

As far as the Ancients go: all of the above plus worlds sucked away into pocket universes, whole systems moved, and plenty of new asteroid belts.

 

[Nathan Brazil]

For past eras concerning atmosphere and hydrographics, I had taken potential terraforming into account. And major nuclear wars.
Part of my plan is to use comparative data from T4's First Survey for some areas. The idea goes along the lines that if the hex matches from Second Survey data it might be the same system. If the stars are the same, that clinches it. Same star system. If the planet size is the same, it is likely the same planet. If atmosphere and hydro matches, then it is the same planet. If different, then I will go and develop some rationale why it changed. Also T4 shows where the homeworlds for different species/races are.

In turn planets with populations even in the economically depressed time of Imperial Year 0 and First Survey mean that they are likely candidates to have survived from the Interstellar Wars period thru the Long Night. From there, I will generate census data based on GURPS Interstellar Wars to get starports, government, control rating and tech. Then convert to CT (and I assume T5) values.

 

[DonM]

And if you're going back to pre-Final War data, some planetoid/asteroid belts should be worlds...

 

[McPerth]

And if you intend to use them for TNE, remember the Rebellion (and mostly Black War zones) also changed some atmospheric UWP (as specified in MT:HT)...

 

[Nathan Brazil]

As I said, from a go forward standpoint, I do not see problems. I have a fairly large collection of Traveller material collected from decades of playing/collecting. What will be interesting there will be getting the polities on the 1248 map to match up with the generated data, especially those out on the Rim. Have to not blast everything to the Stone Age or exterminate too many worlds due to Virus. Then from there, build them back up again.

Some past data is not too much of an issue either. IW pretty well states Vilani colonization policy via the planet creation process. Basically the Vilani only "colonized" planets that had sizes between 5 and 9, atmospheres from 4 thru 9 or were abundantly rich in resources. Anything else inhabited was merely an "outpost". Colonized Vilani worlds are fairly uniform, with populations between 5 and 9 (thru the generation process it is impossible to generate a Vilani population of A) and it is stated that the Vilani did not allow for overcrowding and enforced it on subject races. This is with even with help from the Suerrat, who are described as being good with life support. From that, my take is that the Vilani were not too big on terraforming.

 

[Nathan Brazil]

Concerning Terraforming:

Depending on the rule set and history, in the past Terraforming may not be possible anyways. MgT does not mention terraforming as possible until TL12. In T5 rules ( I do not have them yet), what is the TL at which terraforming is listed as possible?

Vilani TL never went past 11 during the IW period, Terran Confederation only made it to TL 12 in the last years of the IW period. Soon after The Long Night hits and people have other more important things to deal with during the some 1700 years until the Third Imperium.

As far as the other Major Races go, I will have check on their influence on Second Survey data and backdate appropriately

 

[rancke]

Depending on the rule set and history, in the past Terraforming may not be possible anyways. MgT does not mention terraforming as possible until TL12. In T5 rules ( I do not have them yet), what is the TL at which terraforming is listed as possible?

There is canonical mentions of terraforming projects. One of them was in the Solomani Rim.

My take: A tech level denotes when a technology is economically viable. Prototypes and one-offs are possible at one or two TLs early. For example, some British gunmakers made revolvers during the Napoleonic Wars (albeit hand-turned). So TL12 would be the time planetary scale terraforming becomes cheap enough and fast enough that it is possible to achieve results in timescales that make returns on investments in such projects conceivable. But experiments and altruistic projects are possible at lower tech levels.

Vilani TL never went past 11 during the IW period, Terran Confederation only made it to TL 12 in the last years of the IW period. Soon after The Long Night hits and people have other more important things to deal with during the some 1700 years until the Third Imperium.

The Rule of Man came in between the end of the IWs and the fall of the Long Night. That's four centuries where terraforming projects could have been attempted from one end of the Imperium to the other. And the Long Night was less dark than 3rd Imperium hagiographers like to portray it. There's no reason to believe that most pocket empires didn't retain TL12 throughout the Long Night (IMO it's stranger that the two we know of fell to TL9 in the first place, and the Sylean Federation was back up to TL12 in -150).


Hans

 

[Nathan Brazil]

There is canonical mentions of terraforming projects. One of them was in the Solomani Rim.

Can you cite the reference please. One of the problems of a decades long collection is that my memory of things not read in a while falls by the wayside.

So TL12 would be the time planetary scale terraforming becomes cheap enough and fast enough that it is possible to achieve results in timescales that make returns on investments in such projects conceivable. But experiments and altruistic projects are possible at lower tech levels.

The Rule of Man came in between the end of the IWs and the fall of the Long Night. That's four centuries where terraforming projects could have been attempted from one end of the Imperium to the other. And the Long Night was less dark than 3rd Imperium hagiographers like to portray it.).

Yes I agree with that. There are several TL14 and even population B systems in the First Survey supplement. Gemid (Vland 1903 A423A66-E) would seem to be a nice world to start an empire or be an economic powerhouse. Makes you wonder who they were a captive of... Gishgi (Lishun 0626 A300BBB-B) might have had a start if the law was such to ever trust their own people.

The idea is trying to find an appropriate synthesis between rules and story. I try to never say "Oh, that's an error". Instead I take it in stride and figure out storywise why the data looks a certain way. Storywise, it seems that the Vilani were not big terraformers. Sometimes rules help. Concerning terraforming specifically, I have DGP's WorldBuilders' Handbook to determine programmatically if a planet went thru terraforming. Basically pop in the mods based on the current UWP and it provides a likelihood for terraforming in the past.

 

[DonM]

We have the germ of a process for developing other era data from the 1105 baseline. While I've been pretty insistent upon a full cleanup of the 1105 data, I will confess to having built some other prototypes...

I've got drafts of the Marches for 1065, 1116, 1201 and 1248, as well as Lorenverse data, built from previously published material.

 

[robject]

Yes I agree with that. There are several TL14 and even population B systems in the First Survey supplement. Gemid (Vland 1903 A423A66-E) would seem to be a nice world to start an empire or be an economic powerhouse.

So, Gemid was TL14 in the First Survey data? Wow.

 

[Nathan Brazil]

So, Gemid was TL14 in the First Survey data? Wow.

Exactly! It is part of point of my OP. Makes for good stories!

DonM, on my original posting, as you are massaging the Second Survey data. Do you know if there is a general idea coming down as to the validity of data other time periods? As an example, Masillia Sector has Second Survey data, but also has published T4 data (T4 First Survey) data and also Rebellion Era data (GDW Knightfall) for their time periods. Also my favorite area, Solomani Rim, has Second Survey data, but 9 subsectors are detailed in GURPS:IW.

 

[rancke]

So, Gemid was TL14 in the First Survey data? Wow.

Gemid may have been listed as TL 14 if First Survey's data[*], but it can't be true. It must be a mistake (Not surprising in the mess that was First Survey). If Gemid had been TL 14 in Milieu 0, it wouldn't have taken the Imperium another 6-700 years to reach TL 14.

[*] Which is not the First Survey data; the First Survey data was collected during the 4th Century. First Survey's data is supposedly for the 1st Century (and on top of that it is egregiously bugged).​

Hans

 

[DonM]

Yes I agree with that. There are several TL14 and even population B systems in the First Survey supplement. Gemid (Vland 1903 A423A66-E) would seem to be a nice world to start an empire or be an economic powerhouse. Makes you wonder who they were a captive of... Gishgi (Lishun 0626 A300BBB-B) might have had a start if the law was such to ever trust their own people.

The original First Survey T4 release was very buggy. Marc gave me a significantly cleaned up errata draft, which has Gemid as A423A62-?. All Vland sector worlds are actually ? in the errata draft. I believe Marc was going to do some additional work on Vland but time passed...

DonM, on my original posting, as you are massaging the Second Survey data. Do you know if there is a general idea coming down as to the validity of data other time periods? As an example, Masillia Sector has Second Survey data, but also has published T4 data (T4 First Survey) data and also Rebellion Era data (GDW Knightfall) for their time periods. Also my favorite area, Solomani Rim, has Second Survey data, but 9 subsectors are detailed in GURPS:IW.

As Hans pointed out, there were significant problems with the original T4 First Survey work, and so on.

I believe that the plan as I understand it is that as FFE and/or licensees develop plans for various sectors, FFE will provide data or vet generate data against both the 1105 baseline and previously published material. Until that happens, you should continue to use your preferred data set.

Let me explain the size of the problem using the Marches. We now have an 1105 baseline that we're pretty happy with (see travellermap.com). But to take that baseline backwards doesn't just mean creating some algorithms and playing with a spreadsheet and we've got data. Comparing that data to canon items like the Marches historical maps to make sure populations are handled correctly, world ownership changes, etc. Matching up various timeline events also causes problems...

For example, Paya (SM 2509) is A655241-9 in 1105. However, in 1065 it's a different world: C655774-8 in the current draft. This is because the 1075 asteroid impact eliminates the 12 million population it had at the time down to 500 (The Traveller Adventure, p. 85). Identifying items like that and making sure the various datasets reflect them will be half the fun.

There are still problems to iron out with the 1105 baseline. Some imperial sectors didn't have identified subsector capitals until recently. Many code 6 government worlds do not have identified owners (look for O: in the remarks). An examination of the Imperial sectors at travellermap.com might lead folks to find others (one of the reasons for asking Joshua Bell to post the 1105 baseline so fans can see the effort, critique it, and even assist in helping us see obvious mistakes right in front of us).

 

[robject]

The original First Survey T4 release was very buggy. Marc gave me a significantly cleaned up errata draft, which has Gemid as A423A62-?. All Vland sector worlds are actually ? in the errata draft. I believe Marc was going to do some additional work on Vland but time passed...

Frankly, Don, you're a better archivist than Marc. You have the wild-eyed fangs-bared Ziru Sirkan itch to straighten things out. And as Martha Stewart says, that's a Good Thing.

We now have an 1105 baseline that we're pretty happy with (see travellermap.com). But to take that baseline backwards doesn't just mean creating some algorithms and playing with a spreadsheet and we've got data. Comparing that data to canon items like the Marches historical maps to make sure populations are handled correctly, world ownership changes, etc. Matching up various timeline events also causes problems...

On the other hand, I am Lazy, Impatient, and arrogant (Hubris is the word)*. My take is that canon must inform "Rewinds", but when canon is silent, there should be One Algorithm to Rule Them All.



* In the programming world, these are considered virtues.

 

[pendragonman]

snip...
On the other hand, I am Lazy, Impatient, and arrogant (Hubris is the word). My take is that canon must inform "Rewinds", but when canon is silent, there should be One Algorithm to Rule Them All.

Ditto. And Hubris tends to make good Mathematicians as well, for some reason.

 

[DonM]

* In the programming world, these are considered virtues.

Note that I am also "in the programming world"... however, I'm in software configuration management, or release control, or code control, depending on how your current corporate management wants to term it.

That means I store everything, audit everything, perform clean builds of all code, pass judgement on code errors and basically play guardian of the process. Programmers complain about me, and that means I'm doing my job.

As my staff says it, I tell the programmer everything he does wrong. In my world view, we could eliminate coding errors completely if we eliminated the programming staff.

So I'm basically a renegade programmer who went over to the dark side.

 

[rancke]

My take is that canon must inform "Rewinds", but when canon is silent, there should be One Algorithm to Rule Them All.

The problem with that is that population growth depends on things that can't be deduced from UWPs. Two worlds with the exact same population in 1105 could have had quite different populations 40 years earlier.


Hans

 

[SanDragon]

Yes, the War of the Algorithm could devastate the population.