GypsyComet
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That group is part of the process for either getting fan material into shipshape, or deciding it's time to start again. The second option is rare, I understand.
The Crucis Margin Question - How did 590 BILLION inhabitants go missing?
- Thread starter Hairy Jim DeGriz
- Start date
Hairy Jim DeGriz
SOC-12
Maybe it's a Hiver Psych operation to divert the Homicidal Herbivores (Lords of Thunder) Coreward and away from the Rimward friends of the Hand Shakers.
Hairy Jim DeGriz
SOC-12
If one can argue that a rockball can't hold an atmosphere and the UWPs can be changed accordingly (science), I would argue that you can't erase 590 Billion sophonts and not have it change the written story of the Imperium and the Universe before 1105 (history). Unless you want to retcon in something on the magnitude of the Empress Wave or the Civil War.
GypsyComet
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We know what happened IRL, but that was the easy part.
Hairy Jim DeGriz
SOC-12
Between 1900 and 2015 the earth's population grew from ~2 Billion to ~ 7.3 Billion, or ~265%. People like to breed (I prefer to practice). In Crucis Margin 196 worlds of 424 showed a population decline from 990 to 1105.
Yes worlds die off and people migrate.
Of the 196 worlds, 106 had a POP of 6 or less (less than 10,000,000).
Those populations are readily absorbed and require little, if any explanation: Uranium mine ran dry; a localized war or plague; better opportunities elsewhere.
Of the 90 worlds POP > 6, 68 lost > 50% of the population, and of those 28 lost more than 1 Billion population and ten of those lost 10 Billion plus.
Along the same lines of redoing select UWP size and atmosphere stats, the 990 Crucis Margin data warrants a re-do of Population stats to retcon it into 1105 data, which is OTU... right(?)
Yes worlds die off and people migrate.
Of the 196 worlds, 106 had a POP of 6 or less (less than 10,000,000).
Those populations are readily absorbed and require little, if any explanation: Uranium mine ran dry; a localized war or plague; better opportunities elsewhere.
Of the 90 worlds POP > 6, 68 lost > 50% of the population, and of those 28 lost more than 1 Billion population and ten of those lost 10 Billion plus.
Along the same lines of redoing select UWP size and atmosphere stats, the 990 Crucis Margin data warrants a re-do of Population stats to retcon it into 1105 data, which is OTU... right(?)
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Hairy Jim DeGriz
SOC-12
One of the things I am learning at COTI is that I am not the only one who wants to make a game more difficult than real life.
Spinward Flow
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/shrugOne of the things I am learning at COTI is that I am not the only one who wants to make a game more difficult than real life.
It happens to the best of us ...
And to me as well./shrug
It happens to the best of us ...
GypsyComet
SOC-14 1K
Easiest take (to me) is to push the JG populations back to Milieu Zero, and write off GtD as an in-universe error of assumption. Then back date the 1105 version of the sector to 990, placing slightly higher populations than in 1105 at those big JG worlds. Now you have a thousand years to explain regional population calamity, instead of shedding GtD completely.
Spinward Flow
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Propaganda.
GypsyComet
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Nah. What appeals to me is the idea that this region was booming during the Long Night but squandered it in internecine warfare, fracturing, and vindictive empire building, then managed to lose it all as the Imperium rose. By 1105 the region thus has a long ugly history, ruins of far larger civilizations than are currently in place, and a bad case of persistent exhaustion. Those formerly dense worlds might actually be a dominant source of the entire sector's current population, having dispersed from their homeworlds a thousand years ago out of necessity.Propaganda.
the Kafoe don't really need a bioweapon. although TL-D, 2 systems, and 11 million pop total, their planetary defense & navy successfully defended against all attacks, as of year 993. their 'trader & merchant' ships all have one 50 ton weapons bay with a Particle Accelerator as an only weapon. these ships and their crews trade, raid, and pirate everywhere, maybe out to a 30 parsec range? their neighbors haven't successfully gotten their hands on Kafoe ship weaponry for research.
they mysteriously showed up in the area about 100 years ago. they are aggressive, paranoid(?), and a military(?) oriented race. their neighbors have attacked them, are afraid of them, and are having a very hard time defending against their depredations.
when I look at their 1105 system stats, they look a lot less aggressive, TL went down, total pop doubled, with a big population shift from Derj to Indang. with NI Ri & Ag Ri systems, it could be they decided to go the trade route to calm their neighbors down.
I'm not saying the Kafoe killed off so many people in neighboring systems, but maybe many people left for safer systems further away, where the Kafoe don't really go.
just my thoughts on the subject.
they mysteriously showed up in the area about 100 years ago. they are aggressive, paranoid(?), and a military(?) oriented race. their neighbors have attacked them, are afraid of them, and are having a very hard time defending against their depredations.
when I look at their 1105 system stats, they look a lot less aggressive, TL went down, total pop doubled, with a big population shift from Derj to Indang. with NI Ri & Ag Ri systems, it could be they decided to go the trade route to calm their neighbors down.
I'm not saying the Kafoe killed off so many people in neighboring systems, but maybe many people left for safer systems further away, where the Kafoe don't really go.
just my thoughts on the subject.
Spinward Flow
SOC-14 1K
Oh I'm not knocking THAT.
I'm perfectly happy with the notion that the region was booming during the Long Night.
Then it squandered that advantage in internecene warfare, fracturing and vindictive empire building.
And then when the Imperium rose from the ashes, They Were Not Prepared™.
So that by 1105 the region has a long ugly history.
Ruins of far larger civilizations than are currently in residence and a bad case of persistent exhaustion.
ALL of those things sound entirely plausible and a good way to think about the history.
What I'm saying is ... who writes the history books?
The winners ... or the losers?
Do the winners have an incentive ... a motive ... to write themselves as being the "heroes" in that history?
Are there ways to ... shade the truth ... so as to not tell the WHOLE story?
Are there ... gaps ... in that history, which if filled in put an entirely different slant on what you know (and what it all means)?
All I'm saying is that you don't have to take what's there, written by someone else, in the manner of Hook, Line, Sinker, Rod, Reel, Fisherman, AND PART OF THE DOCK.
Look at the history and ask yourself ... is there a hidden possibility here that lies beneath the surface, between the lines that have been written about it? Is there an opportunity for a "deeper truth" to the past, that only a few know about (and fewer still are willing to say, publicly)?
And if that possibility is tantalizing for you, start thinking about what you've been "told" about the sector ... and if it isn't "entirely true" but only "mostly true" start asking questions. Things like, who benefits from my beliefs about the history of this sector?
And THAT could lead to an adventure ... even for a History Researcher type of character.
GypsyComet
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GDW's intent was clear in the CT Atlas: replace the JG material.
But the Atlas only included half of the Domain, so Gateway and CruMar slid by for a while. Because they were outside the Atlas' boundary, those two sectors were not part of the early Sunbane data set, and the trailing side of the map was largely neglected during the HIWG era, seeing attention from only a small number of people. Much of that is lost, as far as the web and the HIWG archives are concerned. I have found fragments of past work in the area, but nothing solid.
MegaTraveller Journal would update Gateway Sector, but Crucis Margin remained mostly untouched.
A 2002 compilation of sectors includes the JG version of Crucis Margin, so any prior work was already not available at that time.
So the effect on Crucis Margin is what we see in Gateway to Destiny: the JG UWPs were retained, but politically rearranged. Probably not GDW's intent in the mid 80s, but just how it turned out.
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Hairy Jim DeGriz
SOC-12
As always, many thanks for your historical insights. What is the status of the DGP material? I have a hard copy the MGT Journal with the Gateway sector circa 1120, chock full of good stuff, but I don't see it on the Travellermap. I did notice inferences in the Wiki.
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Hairy Jim DeGriz
SOC-12
So you see MarCru in decline from 990 to 1105. Better in 990 than it will be in 1105. I have no reason to disagree.
I just went through all 424 worlds and revised the Population, Starport, Government and Tech Levels to give them retroactive continuity from 990 to 1105. But I think I erred towards growth, rather than decline, as I am a believer in rising rather than declining populations. Breeders are going to breed. I haven't compiled my updates yet.
I am in favor of moving The Crucis Margin Cataclysmic Wars
back 500 to 900 years, before the Imperium would have noticed. And let us not forget The Hiver Factor Was it millions or BILLIONS of casualties?
Hairy Jim DeGriz
SOC-12
Notes on Crucis Margin 990 v 1105
Worlds = 424 vs 424
Basic UWP (A123456-A) = 16 are the same, 408 Changed. Of the 16 that stayed the same 15 changed the population modifier.
Starports = 127 Changes. 111 Upgrades, 16 Downgrades
Size = 92 Changes, all increases. 82 are +1 or +2 in size
Atmosphere = 2 Changes, 19 are -1 & -4
Hydrographic = 3 Changes, increases, 2 +1, 1 +4, 2 with ATM changes
Population = 243 Changes, 132 Increased, 111 decreased. 91 minus 1, 98 plus 1.
4 increased 1 to 4 billion. 28 decreased 1 to 69 billion. (Ten 16 to 69 billion = 509 billion)
Government = 171 Changes
Law Level = 177 Changes, 140 where the Government also changed
Tech Level = 307 Changes, 91 Increases, 59 to 7,8,9,A. 216 decreases, 146 to 6, 7, 8, 9
From Travellermap.com data
Worlds = 424 vs 424
Basic UWP (A123456-A) = 16 are the same, 408 Changed. Of the 16 that stayed the same 15 changed the population modifier.
Starports = 127 Changes. 111 Upgrades, 16 Downgrades
Size = 92 Changes, all increases. 82 are +1 or +2 in size
Atmosphere = 2 Changes, 19 are -1 & -4
Hydrographic = 3 Changes, increases, 2 +1, 1 +4, 2 with ATM changes
Population = 243 Changes, 132 Increased, 111 decreased. 91 minus 1, 98 plus 1.
4 increased 1 to 4 billion. 28 decreased 1 to 69 billion. (Ten 16 to 69 billion = 509 billion)
Government = 171 Changes
Law Level = 177 Changes, 140 where the Government also changed
Tech Level = 307 Changes, 91 Increases, 59 to 7,8,9,A. 216 decreases, 146 to 6, 7, 8, 9
From Travellermap.com data
Hairy Jim DeGriz
SOC-12
On these worlds lie the ashes of Empires lost, and the dreams of Empires to be built.
| World Name | SubSector | Hex | UWP | UWP Code | Bas | Ally | Stellar | Habitants (Date TBD) |
| Etzina | A: Ostermann | 401 | B454979-B | Hi | N | Na | M0 V | 2,000,000,000 |
| Arket | A: Ostermann | 508 | A886989-C | Hi | N | Na | G8 V | 2,000,000,000 |
| Malini | A: Ostermann | 709 | B86A989-B | HiWa | - | Na | K9 V | 2,000,000,000 |
| Genk | A: Ostermann | 807 | C66A969-B | HiWa | - | Na | F5 V | 8,000,000,000 |
| Diekirch | B: Vandir | 910 | C998A89-A | HiIn | - | Na | M1 V | 70,000,000,000 |
| Beowawe | C: Outrun | 2003 | E643953-9 | HiIn | - | Na | A1 V G0 D | 2,000,000,000 |
| Pu Chou | D: Chin Shan | 2608 | A896969-A | HiIn | - | MC | G5 V G0 D | 7,000,000,000 |
| Ti-mu | D: Chin Shan | 3003 | C366998-B | Hi | - | MC | G6 V | 5,000,000,000 |
| Achmetha | F: NewSun | 1215 | B326A78-C | HiIn | - | Na | M2 V F7 V | 60,000,000,000 |
| Gdynia | F: NewSun | 1616 | A523AB8-E | HiInNa | N | Ow | M9 V | 60,000,000,000 |
| Wroclaw | F: NewSun | 1620 | B6A5AC8-C | FlHi | - | Ow | M2 V | 40,000,000,000 |
| Kharas | G: Old Worlds | 1819 | C626AC7-B | HiIn | - | Ow | M7 V G0 V | 20,000,000,000 |
| Zywiec | G: Old Worlds | 2116 | D6979C7-B | HiIn | - | KC | M1 V G6 V | 3,000,000,000 |
| Micres | H: Peril's Edge | 2920 | B77A999-B | HiInWa | - | Na | M3 V | 3,000,000,000 |
| Okaya | I: Kobe | 121 | B6299D9-A | HiIn | - | GT | M3 V | 2,000,000,000 |
| Tsavo | J: Bright Heavens | 1125 | A474A99-C | HiIn | N | Na | K6 V | 70,000,000,000 |
| Accra | J: Bright Heavens | 1530 | A6679C9-D | Hi | N | Na | G5 V | 8,000,000,000 |
| Temassinin | K: Reach | 1726 | C324A59-B | HiIn | - | Na | M3 V G4 V | 10,000,000,000 |
| Tidikelt | K: Reach | 1727 | A5479C6-B | HiIn | N | Na | M0 V K7 V | 4,000,000,000 |
| Tindouf | K: Reach | 1825 | C6A69B9-B | FlHi | - | Na | M8 V | 9,000,000,000 |
| Tubroyllufotyu | L: No Return | 2623 | A674A99-E | HiIn | - | Oy | M0 V | 20,000,000,000 |
| Lahti | L: No Return | 3030 | A597AD9-E | HiIn | N | Na | A5 V G7 V | 10,000,000,000 |
| Stefen | N: Taitin | 1135 | A547AA9-B | HiIn | - | Sy | G6 V | 70,000,000,000 |
| Mimsilmi | O: Scatter | 2433 | C9989B9-B | HiIn | - | Na | K8 V | 7,000,000,000 |
| Rion | P: Kixum | 2840 | E478AD9-9 | HiIn | - | Na | M3 V | 40,000,000,000 |
Spinward Flow
SOC-14 1K
That may be true ... but are they doing so at a rate that exceeds the "Killers are going to kill" rate?
If there are wars going on between 900 and 1105, there might have been ... shall we say, a few casualties from time to time?
And that's assuming we aren't talking about orbital bombardments intentionally reducing populations so as to force them into surrendering (the old Douhet fallacy that the bombing of civilians weakens national morale, rather than strengthening it against the attacker). Yes, you can kill a lot of people that way (civilians, mostly), but you have to kill A LOT OF PEOPLE pretty indiscriminately in a shockingly short span of time, along with "proof" that The Beatings Will Continue™, before you can achieve the operational goal of a surrender and suing for peace (think Nagasaki 3 DAYS AFTER Hiroshima had already happened).
Remember, there are always going to be people who think they can "win" a nuclear war with "acceptable losses" in their population.
Even before the nuclear age, during the Great Fire of London in 1666, there were people in the government who thought the fire was a Great Thing™ to be applauded(!) since it was clearing away the unwashed masses of the poor infesting London with poverty and squalor at the time (and therefore believed that letting them die was a good thing for the nation!). Never mind that it created a refugee crisis on a scale the country hadn't seen before and that loads of families were left destitute and died penniless (assuming they even survived the fire in the first place). The misery it created for the population was simply staggering.
And yet ... as with any crisis, there were winners and there were losers in the aftermath (and most of the losers lost everything).
But that didn't matter (as much) to those who "won" in the aftermath of the tragedy ... because they "won" in the face of adversity and advanced their own interests and position as a result.
The real danger is the delusions of people who think that "acceptable losses" means that they get to advance their own interests while everyone else around them dies ... potentially quite horribly.
Sounds a lot like the "thinking" of Virus when you contemplate it long enough ...
Hairy Jim DeGriz
SOC-12
This article has upended my population growth assumptions.
The world population explosion: causes, backgrounds and projections for the future - J. Van Bavel
It seems that universal education and advanced healthcare will reduce the rate of reproduction below the replacement level. Damn my TL 7-8 assumptions and prejudices.
A couple of take-aways:
Once a world gets above, say TL 9, growth is less like to happen because of reproduction. No more 1 - 3% growth rates where the population doubles every 24 - 72 years.
It makes TL 6-7 planets useful to a pocket empire, as low-cost (lower tech) immigrant labor has to come from somewhere, if a TL10-15 planet can't reproduce enough of its own.
The concept of planets declining in population over time is plausible, for lack of immigrants.
There must be a lot of immigration going on. That would have a fascinating impact on where, why and how often people move.
Government regulation on emigration and immigration are going to be important. Lower tech level worlds dependent on more manual labor are going to impose Russian Empire serfdom type regulations, whereas higher tech worlds could go shopping for new citizens one or two tech levels lower to maintain their current economy. Why people do or don't move could be dictated by the government.
Your thoughts?
The world population explosion: causes, backgrounds and projections for the future - J. Van Bavel
It seems that universal education and advanced healthcare will reduce the rate of reproduction below the replacement level. Damn my TL 7-8 assumptions and prejudices.
A couple of take-aways:
Once a world gets above, say TL 9, growth is less like to happen because of reproduction. No more 1 - 3% growth rates where the population doubles every 24 - 72 years.
It makes TL 6-7 planets useful to a pocket empire, as low-cost (lower tech) immigrant labor has to come from somewhere, if a TL10-15 planet can't reproduce enough of its own.
The concept of planets declining in population over time is plausible, for lack of immigrants.
There must be a lot of immigration going on. That would have a fascinating impact on where, why and how often people move.
Government regulation on emigration and immigration are going to be important. Lower tech level worlds dependent on more manual labor are going to impose Russian Empire serfdom type regulations, whereas higher tech worlds could go shopping for new citizens one or two tech levels lower to maintain their current economy. Why people do or don't move could be dictated by the government.
Your thoughts?
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