Sector Duke Warship

[rancke]

One of the GT developments around Nobles has also been changed by Marc since it was written. Unfortunately, Behind the Claw and MGT Spinward Marches were written with that previous assumption in place.

Or in other words, they were written so as to agree with previously published information.

The noble you'll find present on and assigned to every member world is now the Knight, not the Baron as previously written. There are still a lot of Barons "of", but now backwaters with 60 people and a sinus problem no longer rate a Baron of their own.

They never really did, though. At least, I can't recall any mention of low-population worlds with their own barons. The closest is Lewis, but the Baron of Lewis is also the Marquis of Aramis (or the other way around, probably). Also, the Marquis owns Lewis in its entirety (or did at the time he was made baron).

IMTU only member worlds rate a high noble and few low-population worlds are members; most are outposts of members (Lewis is one of the exceptions; it is a member world due to political shenanigans¹). Even then, its quite usual for high nobles to double up on titles. Like Yori, which certainly (IMO) rates a marquis but is only a barony and shares a high noble with Regina.

¹ You know, it only this minute struck me that at least some of those odd low-population member worlds can be explained by Imperial nobles pushing for member worlds (with high noble titles for themselves) of their own. The membership is purely formal and so is the allegedly independent governments.​

Hans

 

[rancke]

So does the T5 rules for nobles allow for customization? For example, the rules says Efate has a duke of its own. We've never heard of this duke before and according to previously published information Efate's high noble is Countess Josephine. Does the rules allow for establishing that Regina has prevented the appointment of a duke for Efate in order to keep its political preminence in the subsector?


Hans

 

[Dagrill]

Connect how? Efate is a world in his duchy. What other sort of connection are you thinking of? Hans

Hi Hans,

Based on the thread I see Norris as the Sub-sector Duke (or capital F duke in T5), who would be nipping round the sub-sector dealing with brushfires. I don't see anything in CT or MT that would support that this is what he did. So a Duke with IN background, not visiting a known trouble spot.

Or was he busy visiting Mora trying to exert pressure there?

Kind Regards

David

 

[Dagrill]

According to the current Traveller Map listings, Efate has its own Duke as well as a Count. Norris' offices may handle the administrative side for Regina and Jewell, but there is a Duke on the spot for troubleshooting already.

Thanks, I didn't check the T5 listings, but Norris is a capital F and Efate a lower case f, which supports the CT background that Norris is the sub-sector Duke of Efate.

Kind Regards

David

 

[Dagrill]

You won't be waiting long. Marc's working on an article on Nobles right now.

Thanks, must be the most eagerly awaited book since T5

Kind Regards

David

 

[rancke]

Based on the thread I see Norris as the Sub-sector Duke (or capital F duke in T5), who would be nipping round the sub-sector dealing with brushfires. I don't see anything in CT or MT that would support that this is what he did. So a Duke with IN background, not visiting a known trouble spot.

Norris is canonically the Duke of Regina (Subsector). Analogous to the governor of a province or even the emperor of an empire (comprised of the member worlds of the subsector/province). Governors and emperors don't usually nip around dealing with brushfires (though they can if they want to, I suppose). Usually they have people for that.

Before the 5FW, Norris was politically at odds with Delphine and her party, who didn't believe there were going to be another war so soon after the 4FW. So they didn't prepare for one. When the war started, Norris tried to cooperate with Santanocheev, but was ignored. For one reason or another (never explained), Santy was able to ignore the local high duke. My surmise is that he was armed with Delphine's express orders setting aside Norris, but that's just my idea. So Norris faked an illness and led an expedition to Algine where he suspected a cruiser had gone down with an Imperial Warrant for him. He evidently ran into trouble, because it took him two years to return (he could have gone to Capital and gotten a new warrant in that time! ) But he did return, with his warrant, and used it to take control of the forces.


Hans

 

[rancke]

Thanks, I didn't check the T5 listings, but Norris is a capital F and Efate a lower case f, which supports the CT background that Norris is the sub-sector Duke of Efate.

Pre-T5 there is canonically no duke of Efate. Efate's high noble is Countess Josephine. Nor are there any other (known) honor dukes associated with any of the worlds in the Spinward Marches. (There is a Duke Jarl who buys a yacht from Bilstein Yards, but he is a distant member of the Imperial family ("one of the Emperor's many cousins")).

IMTU there's an honor Duke of Arden who lives on Capital and is part of the "labor pool" there. He is a descendant of the high Duke of Arden back before Vilis was a duchy, before it got gutted in the 3FW settlement. He has some personal holdings in the Marches, primarily on Efate, but he lives on Capital and visits every other decade.

In general, honor dukes appear to be very rare.


Hans

 

[savage]

One of the GT developments around Nobles has also been changed by Marc since it was written. Unfortunately, Behind the Claw and MGT Spinward Marches were written with that previous assumption in place. The noble you'll find present on and assigned to every member world is now the Knight, not the Baron as previously written.

Nobility in Traveller took a lot from the Russian aristocracy. Power was kept at very high levels, etc. Being that it was a young product (Traveller) the maturity was not there and very little tied together. Nobles need to "rub elbows" (an example, Firefly's episode Shindig, and the comment "the sash denotes knighthood" response "and a mighty fine job it's doing"). For all we know that Firefly episode's knight lived on another planet and was trying to move his cargo through a central planet. Why stay on Efate 90% of the time?

Rewriting Traveller nobility may be a matter of defining it for different ages of the 3rd Imperium (or even different Imperiums). GT did a nice job starting the work. Did it ever really work? Like the Navy, it's out there for small group encounters, but on a 11,000 world scale is easily questionable when travel time is expensive and not necessarily effective. Digest Group had their fixes, but it's never been holistic. Perhaps looking to MGT is the best opportunity for a fix. We have 8+ foundations and very flimsy structural support in this construction. When T4 & T5 we're in development (not to rehash, I like T5) I mentioned a need for more detailed support products instead of the same repeats. :CoW:

Good to hear Marc is working on an update article.:coffeecup:

 

[rancke]

GT did a nice job starting the work. Did it ever really work? Like the Navy, it's out there for small group encounters, but on a 11,000 world scale is easily questionable when travel time is expensive and not necessarily effective. Digest Group had their fixes, but it's never been holistic.

The problem isn't the precise form the Imperial nobility takes. The problem is that when you're playing a party of ordinary people, the plausible opportunities to interact with the top billionth segment of society are limited. The problem is that from the very beginning Traveller has pretty much ignored the planetary nobility -- the top thousandth segment of society, as it were. In consequence, Traveller authors have used those stratospherically lofty Imperial nobles whenever somewhat more humble nobles were needed.

Sadly, it's a problem Marc Miller does not agree exists, so it's not likely to be solved, ever.


Hans

 

[whulorigan]

Imperiallines #7 - Nobles of the Imperium (T5)

Good to hear Marc is working on an update article.:coffeecup:

As I mentioned upthread, Imperiallines #7 just posted on DriveThru RPG:
http://rpg.drivethrustuff.com/produc...liate_rem=4209 .

The entire issue is devoted to explaining the Noble Structure of the Imperium under the T5 ruleset, with examples of CharGen. It specifically deals with some of the questions raised in this thread.

 

[savage]

As I mentioned upthread, Imperiallines #7 just posted on DriveThru RPG:
http://rpg.drivethrustuff.com/produc...liate_rem=4209 .

The entire issue is devoted to explaining the Noble Structure of the Imperium under the T5 ruleset, with examples of CharGen. It specifically deals with some of the questions raised in this thread.

Awesome, thanks for the repeat & getting me up to speed. I admit I skipped a couple pages.

 

[Dagrill]

As I mentioned upthread, Imperiallines #7 just posted on DriveThru RPG:
http://rpg.drivethrustuff.com/produc...liate_rem=4209 .

The entire issue is devoted to explaining the Noble Structure of the Imperium under the T5 ruleset, with examples of CharGen. It specifically deals with some of the questions raised in this thread.

Thanks I've just had a look at the sample file and will purchase asap.

Kind Regards

David

 

[Dagrill]

Norris is canonically the Duke of Regina (Subsector). Analogous to the governor of a province or even the emperor of an empire (comprised of the member worlds of the subsector/province). Governors and emperors don't usually nip around dealing with brushfires (though they can if they want to, I suppose). Usually they have people for that.

Before the 5FW, Norris was politically at odds with Delphine and her party, who didn't believe there were going to be another war so soon after the 4FW. So they didn't prepare for one. When the war started, Norris tried to cooperate with Santanocheev, but were ignored. For one reason or another (never explained), Santy was able to ignore the local high duke. My surmise is that he was armed with Delphine's express orders setting aside Norris, but that's just my idea. So Norris faked an illness and led an expedition to Algine where he suspected a cruiser had gone down with an Imperial Warrant for him. He evidently ran into trouble, because it took him two years to return (he could have gone to Capital and gotten a new warrant in that time! ) But he did return, with his warrant, and used it to take control of the forces.
Hans

Thanks Hans,

I'm going to take a look at the imperiallines pdf.

Do you know what type of ship Norris used to travel to Algine on?

Regards

David

 

[rancke]

Do you know what type of ship Norris used to travel to Algine on?

No. Probably a free trader. Or something belonging to his secret service.


Hans

 

[Patron Zero]

All political issues aside, a warship will need proper 'berthing' and maintenance-support to be effective in such a role.

A bit of a double-edged sword per-se as income generated from crew serving aboard such versus the potential costs of providing an 'adequate' port for said vessel.

Mind no need to build a dedicated base if the ship is not an 'indefinite' or lend-lease posting but unlikely for reasons of security, to have a docking slip in a public facility.

 

[GypsyComet]

All political issues aside, a warship will need proper 'berthing' and maintenance-support to be effective in such a role.

A bit of a double-edged sword per-se as income generated from crew serving aboard such versus the potential costs of providing an 'adequate' port for said vessel.

Mind no need to build a dedicated base if the ship is not an 'indefinite' or lend-lease posting but unlikely for reasons of security, to have a docking slip in a public facility.

The Landed Nobles all have direct access to Imperial land under their stewardship, so a private field or a sequestered part of the main port is entirely likely. Those same nobles also have income generated by their position and stewardship. Only the poorest of Landed Barons is going to need a yacht to generate its own income. Ceremonial and Honor nobles do not always have that advantage, but Ceremonial nobles may have a ship available to the position.

 

[salochin999]

Nobility in Traveller took a lot from the Russian aristocracy.

For anyone interested

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boyar

Although functions could only be accorded by the prince and were not hereditary, land possession was hereditary. The prince could give land to somebody but could not take it from its possessor except for serious reasons such as treason. Therefore, there were two kinds of boyars: those whose ancestors, as chiefs of the ancient rural communities, had held land before the formation of the feudal states, such that the prince merely confirmed their preexisting status as landowners; and those who acquired their domain from a princely donation or who had inherited it from an ancestor who acquired it through such a donation

Being a boyar implied three things: being a land-owner, having serfs, and having a military and/or administrative function. A boyar could have a state function and/or a court function. These functions were called "dregătorie" or "boierie". Only the prince had the power to assign a boierie.

So one possible basis is there's a hereditary part and an appointed part. An individual gets a fiefdom as a kind of hereditary pension for service to the Imperium and that makes their descendants part of a knightly caste like Samurai who can't lose that status except for something like treason.

This doesn't automatically give them positions of power but makes them available for those positions which given the +1 Soc element in Traveller careers, especially the navy, makes me think they have to prove themselves a bit like the Roman cursus honorarum.

Although historically these kind of systems tend to become more hereditary when the center is weak and less hereditary when the center is strong so over the centuries as the system ebbed and flowed it could turn into a total jumble with some hereditary and some appointed titles and offices so there could be as many exceptions to the general rule as needed to cover all the canon examples.

Rewriting Traveller nobility may be a matter of defining it for different ages of the 3rd Imperium (or even different Imperiums).

I think that makes sense. Particularly in an expansion phase these kind of systems can be used as an incentive but when expansion stops the hereditary aspects can interfere with central authority but on the other, other hand having privileges granted as an extension of the Emperor's power might be a useful way to reinforce loyalty to the center.

For example if one of the standard fiefdom elements was somehow connected to star ports e.g. 25% of star port revenues went to the Imperium: 5% Emperor, 5% sector, 5% sub-sector and 10% set aside for knight's fees (i.e. 10,000 knights at 0.001% varying by planet) then no loyalty to the Imperium no more hereditary pension.

GT did a nice job starting the work. Did it ever really work? Like the Navy, it's out there for small group encounters, but on a 11,000 world scale is easily questionable when travel time is expensive and not necessarily effective.

The nobility thing ought to be a rich source of patrons and hooks and given the jumble likely in 11,000 worlds these patrons could be almost any scale imo.

e.g. a retired admiral is made a Baronet of an undeveloped planet and over the years his descendants build it up to the point such that their family own a share in pretty much everything - the government might be civil service bureaucracy but this family is there in the background.

or the same but it went wrong somewhere along the line and the population of the planet dwindled so the system with a UPP that says E star port and a population in the hundreds actually has the ruins of a C star port in a town that used to hold tens of thousands with the local knight being one old dude living in a shack by the refueling pumps.

 

[salochin999]

All political issues aside, a warship will need proper 'berthing' and maintenance-support to be effective in such a role.

If it's part of the office then that could be built in to the office like for example a helipad at a modern embassy. The Emperor's representative on a world could be like that. The yacht comes with the office and the maintenance etc facilities are permanently in place. That could range from a major facility for a ducal yacht to a very basic orbital berthing facility for the kind of smaller yacht that a Knight-Ambassador to a minor world might get (with just an engineer and some security guards on duty at any time and a safe on the yacht with valuable documents).

Particularly powerful noble families might have their own facilities - of various sizes and even multiple yachts.

The mid-powerful with private yachts might only be able to afford to moor them in the orbital space equivalent of a marina paying yearly berthing fees.

Lower down the scale might be a rusting old hulk of a yacht in a hangar on a downwardly mobile noble's estate whose family can't afford it any more.

 

[savage]

Thanks Hans,

I'm going to take a look at the imperiallines pdf.

Do you know what type of ship Norris used to travel to Algine on?

Regards

David

Something big enough to ignore pirates and small enough to avoid attention.

 

[Carlobrand]

No. Probably a free trader. Or something belonging to his secret service. ...

A scout service interdict, a subsector duke with connections to Naval Intelligence, I'd have arranged orders for an escort crewed by my agents to join the interdict task force, with me secretly aboard, then found an opportune moment for me and a couple of picked men to slip down on grav belts while my escort was in orbit. The interdict's designed to keep shipping away, not to keep spies within their own ranks from sneaking down; it'd be awfully hard for another ship a few thousand miles off to detect a trio of man-sized objects separating from my ship and descending in vacc suits with chameleon covers and chill cans to hide the heat signatures, especially if my ship did something like dumping trash to cover my descent. I could be in and out with no one the wiser.