Sector Duke Warship

[Reban]

I guess the question is what if there is no effective chain of command i.e. the links are too far apart.

If a Roman legion was sent to a province would they report to the governor? I assume so. Would the governor have absolute authority though? Their authority might not extend to standing orders or explicit orders deemed to have come direct from the Emperor so maybe they'd have authority as long as it didn't contradict a higher one.

In Traveller terms it could work the same way with a fleet being sent to a sub-sector under the authority of the local Duke but then alternatively if there are sector fleets then they might be attached to those and the Duke has no control over them or both at once.

The simplest system might be if the noble titles were naval ranks with Captain as Knight and Barons and above as ranks of admiral.

Okay here's the central point of this argument: competency.

Commanding military forces is a specialty and one with very high stakes. If the commander is not competent, then both lives and territory are lost to the Imperium.

Roman governors came up through the Roman military service system. To qualify for the office of governor the citizen had to have served with the legions.

Likewise many of the European governors, especially in the 18th and 19th centuries had military service before or in parallel with their civil government careers. Likewise a few systems of government had military governors who also looked after the civil population.

It's a given that an Imperial Duke has a place in the chain of command, but does the OTU assume that they have qualifications to command military forces? (Yes they'll have a staff of military advisers but that's really no substitute for experience).

Norris is a good example. Retired from the IN as a commander and later fills the role of Admiral by reason of his position.

So can we assume that the only Dukes that actually get to go play with the BatRons and CruRons in combat are the ones considered a safe pair of hands by reason of their previous military service?

 

[Carlobrand]

...So can we assume that the only Dukes that actually get to go play with the BatRons and CruRons in combat are the ones considered a safe pair of hands by reason of their previous military service?

I think I still want the person who knows that fleet and works with that fleet calling the shots for maneuver and supply. Even with Norris, I'd prefer he just pick the target and let the admiral who's actually been working with that fleet aim the gun and pull the trigger.

 

[GypsyComet]

So can we assume that the only Dukes that actually get to go play with the BatRons and CruRons in combat are the ones considered a safe pair of hands by reason of their previous military service?

No, simply because of the size of the Imperium. There are a lot of subsector Dukes. While a responsible sitting Duke is going to send his or her heirs off to good schools, military academies, and possible military service, not all will. Norris was a happy accident, as he intended to be career Navy Intel before his older brother died and he became the heir. As such, Norris was possibly better suited to the events of the Fifth Frontier War than his brother would have been.

This won't always be the case. The Emperor doesn't know all of the subsector Dukes and their kids well enough to completely supervise and "suggest" the right heirs, and real life does sometimes throw a monkey wrench into the process even when he does. As a result, we are going to see the occasional strained relationship between Dukes and Admirals. These things do tend to work out eventually, and not all Dukes sit for life or get to pass their title along.

 

[rancke]

[Blanket "this is all merely my opinion" disclaimer.]

Okay here's the central point of this argument: competency. [...]

That assumes that all laws are optimized to achieve the best possible results. This is very much not always the case. Notably laws passed in a hurry to meet one specific problem are prone to suffer from unanticipated consequences. My current theory is that the automatic fleet admiral's rank granted to all high dukes is a result of some law passed back during the Civil War that has remained on the books much like all those laws we hear about that remains, unused and unremarked, for generations after they cease to have relevance.

And I'll repeat the observation that Norris doesn't actually get employed as a fleet admiral during the 5FW. His naval rank is entirely confined to a boardgame (Or was, until I made the mistake of bringing it up in AFO). Even if he [Norris] does have the rank of an admiral, Santanocheev is very unlikely to employ him in that capacity. Norris can sit in his capital and give instructions to fleets under his authority (except that Delphine has explicitly removed them all from his authority), but he can't go outside his duchy and assume command of any passing fleet on the strength of his naval rank..

It's a given that an Imperial Duke has a place in the chain of command, but does the OTU assume that they have qualifications to command military forces? (Yes they'll have a staff of military advisers but that's really no substitute for experience).

I think that a high duke (that hasn't had his authority set aside by his sector duke) can tell the local admiral what to do ("It's vital that Efate be relieved immediately"), but not how to do it.

Norris is a good example. Retired from the IN as a commander and later fills the role of Admiral by reason of his position.

Surely institutional naval wisdom would be that this would make him capable of doing a commander's job, but not an admiral's?

So can we assume that the only Dukes that actually get to go play with the BatRons and CruRons in combat are the ones considered a safe pair of hands by reason of their previous military service?

I assume that the question is moot because a high duke already has a job that prevents him from doing an admiral's on top of that. A high duke can wear a uniform to staff meetings if it pleases him, but he can't go gadding about admiralling away from his capital.

Which is why that law hasn't been repealed yet.


Hans

 

[Dagrill]

That depends on what message you want to send. If I am playing a "Noble of the People" I might want the scruffy work pod/cutter so as to project the message to the locals that I feel their pain and that is why I am here to put the collar on Lord Sumptuous and his extravagant ways. :devil:

Also, even in my TU where dukes mostly have private warships, I always figured them a the high end of ACS/low end of BCS and it would be Flagship to at least a Squadron. Thus to me 30Kt is way outside the range of personal ownership and 500Kt is way out.

Oh, and of course I keep the spiffy Court Shuttle for the times I am going dynamic and then I go all out and drop right on the front lawn of the Manor. :smirk:

I tend to agree, I even created a 2,000 ton Command Ship using Mongoose rules, with J4 and a Flag Bridge. I really like the idea of different transport for different social situations.

I think J4 is needed rather than J3 as even at the Sub-Sector level a J3 ship will still need 3 jumps to go the length of the subsector.

Kind Regards

David

 

[wbyrd]

I like the idea of a smaller Command/Flagship for Dukes and Higher end nobles. It would be a pain in the butt to move a large naval ship, and it's escorts...and occasionally having the Duke show up in battle cruiser, or battleship might seem a bit...inappropriate.

A smaller vessel ( for a capital ship) for use as a mobile command center with integrated security and fast response capability seems just the thing for a Duke to use in potentially unstable situations, or to send as a transport for a personal representative....

And it would be a immediately recognizable indicator that the duke has taken notice of a situation, or is paying a visit to a favored noble, if his personal vessel drops out of jump and takes up orbit over a local or sub-sector capital.

I'd personally give it a bit longer jump range, and a few heavy fighters/assault craft. As well as some mention of non combat facilities, conference rooms, luxuries, etc...

 

[rancke]

I think a duke will have a big yacht for polite visits and borrow whatever he needs, up to a bunch of battleships, from the IN for impolite visits.


Hans

 

[wbyrd]

I can see that..... I really do think most diplomatic visits and negotiations would probably be handled by Yachts. With occasional Good will visits, joint maneuvers, and show the flag, missions by larger warships.

I can see The Fleet being brought in only when "subtle" maneuvers failed. Yhe logistics headaches, expense, and political backlash, caused by deploying a fleet asset might be
In addition I doubt the navy wants to waste space on their big ships for the sort of facilities an extended negotiation, or diplomatic mission would require.

A dedicated armed diplomatic cruiser/flagship/command ship would be a plausible middle ground between a yacht, and a battle group. it would have the facilities and equipment a diplomat and staff would need. And, It would make the progression of subtle intimidation, and display of power more gradual.

 

[Reban]

How about this for a scale of response or levels of "diplomatic" intervention:


Noble yacht < Gunboat < Cruiser < BatRon/Task force


Noble or diplomatic yacht can include yachts, diplomatic couriers and hired vessels to carry the noble and or his officials.

Gunboat would include things like the Type T or other patrol craft to show the flag and enforce Imperial regulations or conduct classic "Gunboat Diplomacy".

Cruiser might include a cruiser detached from the Fleet to remain on station for the duration of a crisis and to make a handy back-up for Noble or Imperial parties planetside. Equally the OTU idea of the Colonial Cruiser fits this level of response. This is also about where OPs concept sits.

The BatRon with two four or six Imperial Fleet battleships and their attendant support and escort vessels are the equivalent of putting a USN Aircraft Carrier group of the coast of a country. The specially constituted IN Task Force covers special circumstances that call for vessels or capabilities other than battleships.

 

[wbyrd]

How about this for a scale of response or levels of "diplomatic" intervention:


Noble yacht < Gunboat < Cruiser < BatRon/Task force

.

That's probably accurate, if your trying to deal bluntly....

I'd insert the ducal ship in the catagory between gunboat/destroyer and cruiser

 

[GypsyComet]

How about this for a scale of response or levels of "diplomatic" intervention:


Noble yacht < Gunboat < Cruiser < BatRon/Task force


Noble or diplomatic yacht can include yachts, diplomatic couriers and hired vessels to carry the noble and or his officials.

Gunboat would include things like the Type T or other patrol craft to show the flag and enforce Imperial regulations or conduct classic "Gunboat Diplomacy".

Cruiser might include a cruiser detached from the Fleet to remain on station for the duration of a crisis and to make a handy back-up for Noble or Imperial parties planetside. Equally the OTU idea of the Colonial Cruiser fits this level of response. This is also about where OPs concept sits.

The BatRon with two four or six Imperial Fleet battleships and their attendant support and escort vessels are the equivalent of putting a USN Aircraft Carrier group of the coast of a country. The specially constituted IN Task Force covers special circumstances that call for vessels or capabilities other than battleships.

A few thoughts:

Many of the big naval assets move around a bit already, patrolling, keeping skills up, showing the flag, and just generally spreading payday money around. For longer term issues on any but the big worlds, an old Atlantic or Lightning class parked overhead to convey Ducal disapproval is just as good as a Tigress or two, especially if the Tigress has somewhere else it needs to be.

Different parts of the Imperium will have different answers, down to and including a memo to the more local Count or Marquis. The answers will also vary over time, as options that might be acceptable in 580 would be career enders in 630, go back to regular business in 760, awaken suspicions in 990, and be the only safe option in 1118.

Despite the accepted picture of the Imperium as a hands off entity for all but the most egregious issues there are Imperial officials to be found nearly everywhere, and some of them are quite hands-on. If the Duke needs to show up, heads will likely roll, and those heads know it.

 

[rancke]

Many of the big naval assets move around a bit already, patrolling, keeping skills up, showing the flag, and just generally spreading payday money around. For longer term issues on any but the big worlds, an old Atlantic or Lightning class parked overhead to convey Ducal disapproval is just as good as a Tigress or two, especially if the Tigress has somewhere else it needs to be.

And also since Tigresses are assigned one squadron per sector, so most dukes won't have any to send. They will have other, albeit smaller, battleships at their disposal, though.


Hans

 

[Carlobrand]

I can see that..... I really do think most diplomatic visits and negotiations would probably be handled by Yachts. ...

BIG yachts. There's been a lot of talk about firepower, but when you're doing a diplomatic visit, the aim is to impress a lot of people and be able to hold big meetings with people who probably have their own staff as well. There may be reasons you'd prefer to do that in the relative security of your own yacht rather than down in someone's city or a high port. Not to mention your own staff is likely to be rather big, if you're going to continue doing your own business as subsector duke or sector duke or whatever while traveling. A high duke's yacht is likely to look like a small luxury liner and is likely to be accompanied by a number of couriers, this setting lacking any other means to communicate over interstellar distances.

 

[salochin999]

Okay here's the central point of this argument: competency.

Commanding military forces is a specialty and one with very high stakes. If the commander is not competent, then both lives and territory are lost to the Imperium.

Roman governors came up through the Roman military service system. To qualify for the office of governor the citizen had to have served with the legions.

Likewise many of the European governors, especially in the 18th and 19th centuries had military service before or in parallel with their civil government careers. Likewise a few systems of government had military governors who also looked after the civil population.

It's a given that an Imperial Duke has a place in the chain of command, but does the OTU assume that they have qualifications to command military forces? (Yes they'll have a staff of military advisers but that's really no substitute for experience).

Norris is a good example. Retired from the IN as a commander and later fills the role of Admiral by reason of his position.

So can we assume that the only Dukes that actually get to go play with the BatRons and CruRons in combat are the ones considered a safe pair of hands by reason of their previous military service?

That's what I'm wondering now.

The two fixed points imo are
1) The nobles aren't the planetary govt (except sometimes)
2) Dukes have some authority over something but see point 1.

I was going with the full feudal idea but of the star ports - kind of a franchise feudalism but now I'm not so sure.

In a way ex Naval officers make a lot of sense given the way the rules are set up.

#

edit: thing is - what does a Duke do if the systems each have their own government? It seems to me it must include military / security.

 

[salochin999]

BIG yachts. There's been a lot of talk about firepower, but when you're doing a diplomatic visit, the aim is to impress a lot of people and be able to hold big meetings with people who probably have their own staff as well. There may be reasons you'd prefer to do that in the relative security of your own yacht rather than down in someone's city or a high port. Not to mention your own staff is likely to be rather big, if you're going to continue doing your own business as subsector duke or sector duke or whatever while traveling. A high duke's yacht is likely to look like a small luxury liner and is likely to be accompanied by a number of couriers, this setting lacking any other means to communicate over interstellar distances.

Yes. I think a military HG type ship makes perfect sense but with the emphasis on speed, defense, comms, sensors etc combined with a lot of yacht and conference stuff.

Weaponry - mostly point defense and fighters.


iirc some of the ships in one of the Dune shows had that kind of feel.

 

[Carlobrand]

Yes. I think a military HG type ship makes perfect sense but with the emphasis on speed, defense, comms, sensors etc combined with a lot of yacht and conference stuff.

Weaponry - mostly point defense and fighters.


iirc some of the ships in one of the Dune shows had that kind of feel.

This is one of those rare instances where speed may not be needed. It is a duke's yacht, a dual-purpose ship-of-state and pleasure craft. It will spend its days going from one population center to another by jump, with only those deep in stellar jump shadows giving it much need to be away from the local defenses. It will most likely be escorted by Navy ships - escorts, destroyers, maybe even those cruisers we've been talking about if there's a need to show some teeth on a particular visit, with stronger escorts when it goes someplace weak or unfriendly. For the same reason, it shouldn't need fighters - its retinue of escorts should be adequate. Think of a President going places with marines and secret servicemen at hand to protect him, but in terms of ships instead of men. Also looks more impressive: the typical megacorp CEO does not generally get to fly around with Chrysanthemum escorts.

The yacht is not likely to come under meson fire, which is the weapon against which agility is critical. If seriously threatened, its escorts should be able to cover it long enough for it to make planetfall or a jump point. Rather, a nuclear damper and heavy armor should be more than adequate to handle most threats. Of course, there's no reason not to keep some speed handy other than cost, but I'm thinking most of the time this yacht wants to take its time getting from jump point to orbit and vice versa just so people can spend more time being impressed by it. So, it will rarely show its speed, and its performance might even be kept classified so it has a hole card against a potential attacker.

I agree that weapons will be point defense oriented: lasers and sandcasters. A ship of state really doesn't need to be a threat - its escorts can do that job nicely.

 

[salochin999]

This is one of those rare instances where speed may not be needed. It is a duke's yacht, a dual-purpose ship-of-state and pleasure craft. It will spend its days going from one population center to another by jump, with only those deep in stellar jump shadows giving it much need to be away from the local defenses. It will most likely be escorted by Navy ships - escorts, destroyers, maybe even those cruisers we've been talking about if there's a need to show some teeth on a particular visit, with stronger escorts when it goes someplace weak or unfriendly. For the same reason, it shouldn't need fighters - its retinue of escorts should be adequate. Think of a President going places with marines and secret servicemen at hand to protect him, but in terms of ships instead of men. Also looks more impressive: the typical megacorp CEO does not generally get to fly around with Chrysanthemum escorts.

The yacht is not likely to come under meson fire, which is the weapon against which agility is critical. If seriously threatened, its escorts should be able to cover it long enough for it to make planetfall or a jump point. Rather, a nuclear damper and heavy armor should be more than adequate to handle most threats. Of course, there's no reason not to keep some speed handy other than cost, but I'm thinking most of the time this yacht wants to take its time getting from jump point to orbit and vice versa just so people can spend more time being impressed by it. So, it will rarely show its speed, and its performance might even be kept classified so it has a hole card against a potential attacker.

I agree that weapons will be point defense oriented: lasers and sandcasters. A ship of state really doesn't need to be a threat - its escorts can do that job nicely.

If it was me I'd build it for maximum survivability without escorts as I'd want it to be able to operate alone in an emergency although as I've forgotten the HG rules I'm not sure what would create maximum survivability so fighters might not be right.

So for me the design specs would be

1) Impressive: both exterior and interior
2) High Survivability (or maximum survivability IMTU)
3) Comms center (for command ship role)
4) Medium to High Jump
5) Medium to High Manouver
6) Whatever offensive weaponry will fit in remaining space

 

[rancke]

If it was me I'd build it for maximum survivability without escorts as I'd want it to be able to operate alone in an emergency...

When was the last time you heard of an emperor operating alone¹? An Imperial duke is more powerful than any emperor we've ever had on Earth. Try googling 'royal yacht' for some ideas of what the piddling bush-league kings and potentates of Earth tended to use for similar purposes in the past.

¹ Norris fetching his warrant . OK, sure. And I suppose Haroun al-Rashid might sort of qualify. But it's not going to be a common occurence.​

Hans

 

[Dagrill]

Okay here's the central point of this argument: competency.

Roman governors came up through the Roman military service system. To qualify for the office of governor the citizen had to have served with the legions.

It's a given that an Imperial Duke has a place in the chain of command, but does the OTU assume that they have qualifications to command military forces? (Yes they'll have a staff of military advisers but that's really no substitute for experience).

So can we assume that the only Dukes that actually get to go play with the BatRons and CruRons in combat are the ones considered a safe pair of hands by reason of their previous military service?

Legates were drawn from the Senatorial class, each Legio had a Primus Pilus and other officers drawn from the Plebian class to advise the Legates, (please excuse my poor Latin), so the inference is with the right command team you can conquer a sizable chunk of the planet.

I suspect that Dukes with military service would take a more active role in military service than those without, but I don't think it would be confined to such.

Incidentally, (and off topic) I don't see anything connecting Norris to Efate despite it being a trouble spot prior to to 5FW?

Kind Regards

David

 

[Dagrill]

Note also the derivation of Duke: it's from the latin Dux,"leader". The Romano-Britains supposedly used the title Dux Bellorum for "War-leader"...

I think Dux just meant Leader, it was a junior title to Comes, which meant Companion and has become Count. The Comes Litoris Saxoni commanded the troops and ships guarding the South and East of Britain against the Saxons, whilst the Dux Brittanicum commanded the Limtanae guarding the Northern frontier.

Regards

David