Sell me on science skills in CT

[Black Globe Generator]

The JTAS article "Imperial Academy of Science" introduces a slew of science skills, from the basic (biology, geology) to the arcane (agricultural engineering), for CT characters. I believe that MT introduced science skills as well, by which I mean skills that represent a field of scientific study.

I've balked at introducing this to MCTU - I've used the Edu stat to represent knowledge in various fields, and given a background bonus for particular characters (e.g., a character who is presented as a xenobilogist gets a +2 bump on Edu checks related to that specialty).

I'm curious if adding science skills to CT really adds anything to the game or not - I'm interested to hear how those of you who use science skills feel about it.

Thanks in advance for your replies.

 

[Black Globe Generator]

The JTAS article "Imperial Academy of Science" introduces a slew of science skills, from the basic (biology, geology) to the arcane (agricultural engineering), for CT characters. I believe that MT introduced science skills as well, by which I mean skills that represent a field of scientific study.

I've balked at introducing this to MCTU - I've used the Edu stat to represent knowledge in various fields, and given a background bonus for particular characters (e.g., a character who is presented as a xenobilogist gets a +2 bump on Edu checks related to that specialty).

I'm curious if adding science skills to CT really adds anything to the game or not - I'm interested to hear how those of you who use science skills feel about it.

Thanks in advance for your replies.

 

[aramis]

Being primarily an MT person, I like them. The IAoS article adds too many for my tastes.

The thing is that they prevent players from having the ability to do strange things like develop new bacteria, synthesize drugs, or calculate the intertial mass of a rotating body without using them. This actually leads to more of a backwater, age of sail kind of feel, especially with the "I don't know how to calculate the lading manifest map, I just tell the computer the tare data and let it work it out" and the "I can fix it, but I'll be damned if I know how it does what it does."

 

[aramis]

Being primarily an MT person, I like them. The IAoS article adds too many for my tastes.

The thing is that they prevent players from having the ability to do strange things like develop new bacteria, synthesize drugs, or calculate the intertial mass of a rotating body without using them. This actually leads to more of a backwater, age of sail kind of feel, especially with the "I don't know how to calculate the lading manifest map, I just tell the computer the tare data and let it work it out" and the "I can fix it, but I'll be damned if I know how it does what it does."

 

[Maladominus]

Originally posted by Black Globe Generator:
The JTAS article "Imperial Academy of Science" introduces a slew of science skills, from the basic (biology, geology) to the arcane (agricultural engineering), for CT characters. I believe that MT introduced science skills as well, by which I mean skills that represent a field of scientific study.

I've balked at introducing this to MCTU - I've used the Edu stat to represent knowledge in various fields

You know what? I thought the same way you did, at first. I also balked and hesitated about POLLUTING MY CLASSIC TRAVELLER universe with 50 gazillion useless "science factoid knowledge skills". And then I eventually looked at each one of them individually.

Guess what? Science skills such as "Xenology", the knowledge and understanding of alien life, and skills such as "Astronomy/Astrography", the knowledge and understanding of cosmic and stellar bodies and phenomena.... you know... this kind of knowledge is exactly what a space traveller needs to know in depth? Do you disagree? Agree?

EDU Attribute. My interpretation of the EDU attribute is that is is generalistic High School or College-level type knowledge. It does not necessarilly cover deep scientific knowledge of any given field.

Someone with High EDU will say:

"Oh look! According to my College biology education, I would recognize that large herbivore with 18 horns to be trying to protect its younglings, and may therefore charge us at any moment. Run!!!!"


A Scientist with Xeno-biology Skill-3 (Or Xenology or Biology or whatever equivalent skill you wish to use IYTU) will say:

"Oh my goodness! I recognize that to be a member of the genus species Hiedeopolites Boreatarhinogeronomus! They only LOOK like 800-kilogram docile herbivores, but in fact are carnivores for reasons I do not have time to explain right now my fellow Travellers, and they have been known to attack humans without provocation on various worlds where they are known to thrive. RUN!!!"

See the difference?

 

[Maladominus]

Originally posted by Black Globe Generator:
The JTAS article "Imperial Academy of Science" introduces a slew of science skills, from the basic (biology, geology) to the arcane (agricultural engineering), for CT characters. I believe that MT introduced science skills as well, by which I mean skills that represent a field of scientific study.

I've balked at introducing this to MCTU - I've used the Edu stat to represent knowledge in various fields

You know what? I thought the same way you did, at first. I also balked and hesitated about POLLUTING MY CLASSIC TRAVELLER universe with 50 gazillion useless "science factoid knowledge skills". And then I eventually looked at each one of them individually.

Guess what? Science skills such as "Xenology", the knowledge and understanding of alien life, and skills such as "Astronomy/Astrography", the knowledge and understanding of cosmic and stellar bodies and phenomena.... you know... this kind of knowledge is exactly what a space traveller needs to know in depth? Do you disagree? Agree?

EDU Attribute. My interpretation of the EDU attribute is that is is generalistic High School or College-level type knowledge. It does not necessarilly cover deep scientific knowledge of any given field.

Someone with High EDU will say:

"Oh look! According to my College biology education, I would recognize that large herbivore with 18 horns to be trying to protect its younglings, and may therefore charge us at any moment. Run!!!!"


A Scientist with Xeno-biology Skill-3 (Or Xenology or Biology or whatever equivalent skill you wish to use IYTU) will say:

"Oh my goodness! I recognize that to be a member of the genus species Hiedeopolites Boreatarhinogeronomus! They only LOOK like 800-kilogram docile herbivores, but in fact are carnivores for reasons I do not have time to explain right now my fellow Travellers, and they have been known to attack humans without provocation on various worlds where they are known to thrive. RUN!!!"

See the difference?

 

[Black Globe Generator]

Originally posted by Maladominus:
My interpretation of the EDU attribute is that is is generalistic High School or College-level type knowledge. It does not necessarilly cover deep scientific knowledge of any given field.

One of the reasons that I'm considering a change is that I do like the idea of more specialized knowledge in particular fields of study - as I mentioned, I've simply used a roleplay bonus in the past to simulate this.

The only issue I see here is that a character with Edu E and no specific skill is just as likely to come up with, "It's a Rapacious Three-Toed Snagglewortz! Run!" as a character with Xenobiology-3 and Edu 8 - I'm not sure we can devalue Edu quite so readily as mere "general studies."

I am warming to the idea a bit, however.

 

[Black Globe Generator]

Originally posted by Maladominus:
My interpretation of the EDU attribute is that is is generalistic High School or College-level type knowledge. It does not necessarilly cover deep scientific knowledge of any given field.

One of the reasons that I'm considering a change is that I do like the idea of more specialized knowledge in particular fields of study - as I mentioned, I've simply used a roleplay bonus in the past to simulate this.

The only issue I see here is that a character with Edu E and no specific skill is just as likely to come up with, "It's a Rapacious Three-Toed Snagglewortz! Run!" as a character with Xenobiology-3 and Edu 8 - I'm not sure we can devalue Edu quite so readily as mere "general studies."

I am warming to the idea a bit, however.

 

[Maladominus]

Originally posted by Black Globe Generator:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Maladominus:
My interpretation of the EDU attribute is that is is generalistic High School or College-level type knowledge. It does not necessarilly cover deep scientific knowledge of any given field.

One of the reasons that I'm considering a change is that I do like the idea of more specialized knowledge in particular fields of study - as I mentioned, I've simply used a roleplay bonus in the past to simulate this.

The only issue I see here is that a character with Edu E and no specific skill is just as likely to come up with, "It's a Rapacious Three-Toed Snagglewortz! Run!" as a character with Xenobiology-3 and Edu 8 - I'm not sure we can devalue Edu quite so readily as mere "general studies."

I am warming to the idea a bit, however. </font>[/QUOTE]BGG,

The difference between someone who has Education E and Someone with Xenobiology-3 skill is this:

The guy with Education E might possess great knowledge on lots of subjects. But he is NOT really a professional expert on those subjects. And he only knows possibly what he has READ and LEARNED from books.

The guy with the Xenobiology-3 (or Xeno-4) not only possess the knowledge, he actually KNOWs what the Rapacious Three-Toed Snagglewortz looks like in real life. He has seen one. Maybe he has touched one. He knows the care needed in order to feed one. He has possibly dissected a dead specimen in an advanced laboratory class final exam. The Xenobiology-3 person has practical and hands-on knowledge.

Do you think the guy with Education E has that same depth of practical experience simply by going to College, attending some lectures, and reading some books on the subject?

The Xenobiology-3 fellow is an actual working expert on the subject. He has practical experience, in addition to knowledge on the subject. Now, see the difference?

 

[Maladominus]

Originally posted by Black Globe Generator:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Maladominus:
My interpretation of the EDU attribute is that is is generalistic High School or College-level type knowledge. It does not necessarilly cover deep scientific knowledge of any given field.

One of the reasons that I'm considering a change is that I do like the idea of more specialized knowledge in particular fields of study - as I mentioned, I've simply used a roleplay bonus in the past to simulate this.

The only issue I see here is that a character with Edu E and no specific skill is just as likely to come up with, "It's a Rapacious Three-Toed Snagglewortz! Run!" as a character with Xenobiology-3 and Edu 8 - I'm not sure we can devalue Edu quite so readily as mere "general studies."

I am warming to the idea a bit, however. </font>[/QUOTE]BGG,

The difference between someone who has Education E and Someone with Xenobiology-3 skill is this:

The guy with Education E might possess great knowledge on lots of subjects. But he is NOT really a professional expert on those subjects. And he only knows possibly what he has READ and LEARNED from books.

The guy with the Xenobiology-3 (or Xeno-4) not only possess the knowledge, he actually KNOWs what the Rapacious Three-Toed Snagglewortz looks like in real life. He has seen one. Maybe he has touched one. He knows the care needed in order to feed one. He has possibly dissected a dead specimen in an advanced laboratory class final exam. The Xenobiology-3 person has practical and hands-on knowledge.

Do you think the guy with Education E has that same depth of practical experience simply by going to College, attending some lectures, and reading some books on the subject?

The Xenobiology-3 fellow is an actual working expert on the subject. He has practical experience, in addition to knowledge on the subject. Now, see the difference?

 

[Black Globe Generator]

Originally posted by Maladominus:
Do you think the guy with Education E has that same depth of practical experience simply by going to College, attending some lectures, and reading some books on the subject?

Where does it say that Edu represents only that which can be learned from a book or a college lecture? This may be your interpretation of it, but is this how it's presented in the game-rules? (I don't have my reprints handy to look it up myself.)

I understand the point you're trying to make, but look at it again from a rules standpoint using my example: a character with Edu E versus character with Edu 8 and Xenobio-3 - assuming that each level of Xenobio confers a -2 bonus to an Edu check to identify the R3TS and know something of its habits, both characters have an equal chance of coming up with the information.

My issue is this: each time we create a skill to cover some area of knowledge (as opposed to a practical skill - Pilot, Leader, Tactics, Gunnery, etc.), we devalue Edu as a character stat. I'm reluctant to go down that road.

 

[Black Globe Generator]

Originally posted by Maladominus:
Do you think the guy with Education E has that same depth of practical experience simply by going to College, attending some lectures, and reading some books on the subject?

Where does it say that Edu represents only that which can be learned from a book or a college lecture? This may be your interpretation of it, but is this how it's presented in the game-rules? (I don't have my reprints handy to look it up myself.)

I understand the point you're trying to make, but look at it again from a rules standpoint using my example: a character with Edu E versus character with Edu 8 and Xenobio-3 - assuming that each level of Xenobio confers a -2 bonus to an Edu check to identify the R3TS and know something of its habits, both characters have an equal chance of coming up with the information.

My issue is this: each time we create a skill to cover some area of knowledge (as opposed to a practical skill - Pilot, Leader, Tactics, Gunnery, etc.), we devalue Edu as a character stat. I'm reluctant to go down that road.

 

[Mickazoid]

Here's how it would play out in my first play group, over 20 years ago...

"As a sleeper member of the Snagglewortz Liberation Front, I break cover, stuff a grenade into the xenobiologist's pocket protector and run for the air/raft."

 

[Mickazoid]

Here's how it would play out in my first play group, over 20 years ago...

"As a sleeper member of the Snagglewortz Liberation Front, I break cover, stuff a grenade into the xenobiologist's pocket protector and run for the air/raft."

 

[Spiderfish]

Well I quite like them...

Without science skills a scientist chargen would be a bit gash. And without scientist NPCs whose research would we end with a little 4mil gauss.

 

[Spiderfish]

Well I quite like them...

Without science skills a scientist chargen would be a bit gash. And without scientist NPCs whose research would we end with a little 4mil gauss.

 

[Black Globe Generator]

Originally posted by Spiderfish:
Without science skills a scientist chargen would be a bit gash.

I agree to a certain extent - the Scientist in CotI is a bit bland, to be sure. However, I think that "IAoS" goes much too far the other way - too much specialization, in a game with broad-stroke skills, can be just as bad.

For example is "xenobiology" skill (to continue with the example from earlier in the thread) too specialized for a game like Classic Traveller? This is one of the reasons I've handled it with a character-specific bonus - if a player says her Scientist character is a marine phycologist, fine, she gets a bonus on anything related to kelp. I tend to think that CT simply isn't designed to handle that level of specificity, which is one of the reasons that this sort of knowledge is folded into Edu.

I'm considering just a general "Science" skill, for which the player chooses a specific emphasis (like xenobiology, or marine phycology), rather than a cascade of some kind - it's a bit fuzzier, and allows the player and referee to agree on what the skill affects and doesn't, rather than trying to create a laundry list of disciplines that might be too specific or too vague.

Thanks to everyone who's responded so far - the feedback is very helpful. More thoughts and ideas are welcome.

 

[Black Globe Generator]

Originally posted by Spiderfish:
Without science skills a scientist chargen would be a bit gash.

I agree to a certain extent - the Scientist in CotI is a bit bland, to be sure. However, I think that "IAoS" goes much too far the other way - too much specialization, in a game with broad-stroke skills, can be just as bad.

For example is "xenobiology" skill (to continue with the example from earlier in the thread) too specialized for a game like Classic Traveller? This is one of the reasons I've handled it with a character-specific bonus - if a player says her Scientist character is a marine phycologist, fine, she gets a bonus on anything related to kelp. I tend to think that CT simply isn't designed to handle that level of specificity, which is one of the reasons that this sort of knowledge is folded into Edu.

I'm considering just a general "Science" skill, for which the player chooses a specific emphasis (like xenobiology, or marine phycology), rather than a cascade of some kind - it's a bit fuzzier, and allows the player and referee to agree on what the skill affects and doesn't, rather than trying to create a laundry list of disciplines that might be too specific or too vague.

Thanks to everyone who's responded so far - the feedback is very helpful. More thoughts and ideas are welcome.

 

[Klaus]

Xeno-biology is pretty general. The biology of any plant/system, rather than a single planet or a section of its ecosystem.

have general skills like:

Xeno-Biology
Astrophysics
Planetology
Socio-History
Xeno-Archeology
Linguistics

 

[Klaus]

Xeno-biology is pretty general. The biology of any plant/system, rather than a single planet or a section of its ecosystem.

have general skills like:

Xeno-Biology
Astrophysics
Planetology
Socio-History
Xeno-Archeology
Linguistics