Sensors - Help me!
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Keklas Rekobah
SOC-14 1K
Sensor: Any device that detects the properties or emissions of an object or event. Example: An AM radio receiver.
Scanner: Any device that sends out a standardized signal so that a sensor can detect the return signal and determine the properties of a remote object. Example: Radar.
As for the "Life-Form" detectors, they have little or no modern-day real-world equivalent. Supposedly, the more advanced "Tri-Corders" can detect the DNA of a life form from thousands of kilometers away, and determine enough about the life form to differentiate between species and genders. Mere handwave technology.
Scanner: Any device that sends out a standardized signal so that a sensor can detect the return signal and determine the properties of a remote object. Example: Radar.
As for the "Life-Form" detectors, they have little or no modern-day real-world equivalent. Supposedly, the more advanced "Tri-Corders" can detect the DNA of a life form from thousands of kilometers away, and determine enough about the life form to differentiate between species and genders. Mere handwave technology.
What does T20 "sensors" mean though? I assume that ships have scanners (radar, etc) under the heading of "Sensors". There isn't a seperate "Scanner" officer and a "Sensors" operator. It's all under the generic heading of "Sensors".
Can sensors in T20 operate like those StarTrek sensors? Is there anything in the rulebook for T20 to tell a Referee what it is that Sensors actually do? What they are used for? What their limitations are? I can't find it.
Can sensors in T20 operate like those StarTrek sensors? Is there anything in the rulebook for T20 to tell a Referee what it is that Sensors actually do? What they are used for? What their limitations are? I can't find it.
Sensors are only as good as the computer and programs that support them. That's not to say some types of detectors wouldn't be more useful than others but they are all useless if you can't process the data.
With the right computer and programs, the Scout service or Imperial military could probably get away with very simple (and robust) detection equipment.
Case in point, radar and sonar haven't changed significantly in over 50 years, but the computers/programs supporting them have; and that's where the tech gap between 1st world and 3rd world militaries lies.
I had my players shop for sensor equipment to add to their Suleiman once. They found some ex-mil stuff that seemed to fit their purpose. It was all smiles while they mounted the detector in the upper gallery and wired it up to their Mod 1. Then, when they powered everything up, they found that the detector was dumping a steady stream of data to the computer but the computer couldn't manage or display the bulk of the information. The amateur programmer onboard spend several weeks of game time trying to figure out how to get the two pieces of equipment to interface properly. Finding help was an adventure in itself. In the end, they managed to get the sensors to work partially, but could never get full use of them. They would have to shut down a lot of other systems just to process the information. But it seemed like a fair trade for what they got.
With the right computer and programs, the Scout service or Imperial military could probably get away with very simple (and robust) detection equipment.
Case in point, radar and sonar haven't changed significantly in over 50 years, but the computers/programs supporting them have; and that's where the tech gap between 1st world and 3rd world militaries lies.
I had my players shop for sensor equipment to add to their Suleiman once. They found some ex-mil stuff that seemed to fit their purpose. It was all smiles while they mounted the detector in the upper gallery and wired it up to their Mod 1. Then, when they powered everything up, they found that the detector was dumping a steady stream of data to the computer but the computer couldn't manage or display the bulk of the information. The amateur programmer onboard spend several weeks of game time trying to figure out how to get the two pieces of equipment to interface properly. Finding help was an adventure in itself. In the end, they managed to get the sensors to work partially, but could never get full use of them. They would have to shut down a lot of other systems just to process the information. But it seemed like a fair trade for what they got.
Traveller canon has Passive Sensors (detects any incoming radiation) and Active Sensors (like the ping from a submarine), Neutrino detectors (for any fusion or fission sources), and Densitometers (I'm not sure of the details on that one)
hehe
Dameon
I'll have to disagree with you on this one. There are life-form detectors out right now. They have infrared detectors for deer hunters to track their kills. Biometric detectors at airports (as well as x-ray machines that could see the skeleton of a person) and the two Mars rovers carry equipment for detecting life. It's just that no one has put them all together into one little package. But I've been thinking about it. Started to come up with an idea years ago for trying to find lost backpackers - would probably work for tracking down BigFoot, too, if he exists.
hehe
Dameon
Alternative sensors that are implied but not mentioned.
Meson Sillohette sensors. Requires a meson weapon to use unfortuneately. Fire it the other side of a suspected target and see what leaks back. Could be taken as an act of war... so definitely in the active sensors bag.
Gravimetric sensors. Grav drives are controllable in gravity wells. Therefore the grav drive is able to compensate for these gravity gradients. Therefore it is able to detect them. From this we can see that you should be able to see operating maneveur drives and grav vehicle drives, and to a lesser extent artifical gravity on ships. Could be passive or active dependent on implementation.
For lifeform detection there is nothing that is really on spec that couldn't be easily confused. You can use densiometers, but except at very high TL it would only imply the crew space rather then the individual crew members. You could use IR to detect heat signatures, but that wouldn't work except near the skin of a craft, and is unlikely to work at all against anything armored. You could fire high powered lasers into any leaking gases and try to work out what mix the other ship was using (and if you were lucky some biological material as well).
Meson Sillohette sensors. Requires a meson weapon to use unfortuneately. Fire it the other side of a suspected target and see what leaks back. Could be taken as an act of war... so definitely in the active sensors bag.
Gravimetric sensors. Grav drives are controllable in gravity wells. Therefore the grav drive is able to compensate for these gravity gradients. Therefore it is able to detect them. From this we can see that you should be able to see operating maneveur drives and grav vehicle drives, and to a lesser extent artifical gravity on ships. Could be passive or active dependent on implementation.
For lifeform detection there is nothing that is really on spec that couldn't be easily confused. You can use densiometers, but except at very high TL it would only imply the crew space rather then the individual crew members. You could use IR to detect heat signatures, but that wouldn't work except near the skin of a craft, and is unlikely to work at all against anything armored. You could fire high powered lasers into any leaking gases and try to work out what mix the other ship was using (and if you were lucky some biological material as well).
Life detection is probably a program, not a sensor. It would take input from whatever sensors are available, compile the data, and determine if all the readings point toward the existence of known lifeforms or at least a suitable environment.
I.e., scan a planet with your RF spectrum array and gravimetric sensor; if the readings match Earth norm, there might be life. You would still probably have to drop a probe or make a low level pass to confirm it.
Again, a lot can be determined with just passive RF sensors particularly atmospheric composition and conditions, which by itself could indicate a potential for life.
I.e., scan a planet with your RF spectrum array and gravimetric sensor; if the readings match Earth norm, there might be life. You would still probably have to drop a probe or make a low level pass to confirm it.
Again, a lot can be determined with just passive RF sensors particularly atmospheric composition and conditions, which by itself could indicate a potential for life.
BetterThanLife
SOC-14 1K
when looking at a planet to determine if there is life, don't forget the number one passive sensor in use today. Visual. A Spy SaT might not be able to read a newspaper lying on the ground, though some rumors state that the KH-11 can tell if it is Pravda or Izvsetia, it can certainly count heads. The later models of the F-14 are equipped with a long range camera to search for other aircraft so the F-14 doesn't have to give itself away by using its radar. (Until it is too late.)
Tom Clancy's Rainbow 6, and Clancy is usually pretty good on Tech research, had a life detector that was based on the electronic impulses produced by a human heart (Similar to the way an EKG works but at short range). The principal is sound. The human body produces all sorts of electromagnetic frequencies, the trouble is, since they are weak, picking them out of background noise. At higher techlevels this could be overcome.
Detecting life on a planet similar to earth wouldn't be all that difficult. Detecting life on a starship, orbital habitat, hostile environment planet would be a bit tougher since by their very nature these have to be heavily shielded from EM and other radiation sources, which would work both ways so detecting life on a starship would have to be tougher.
Tom Clancy's Rainbow 6, and Clancy is usually pretty good on Tech research, had a life detector that was based on the electronic impulses produced by a human heart (Similar to the way an EKG works but at short range). The principal is sound. The human body produces all sorts of electromagnetic frequencies, the trouble is, since they are weak, picking them out of background noise. At higher techlevels this could be overcome.
Detecting life on a planet similar to earth wouldn't be all that difficult. Detecting life on a starship, orbital habitat, hostile environment planet would be a bit tougher since by their very nature these have to be heavily shielded from EM and other radiation sources, which would work both ways so detecting life on a starship would have to be tougher.
BetterThanLife
SOC-14 1K
As far as looking at what starship sensors include, since they aren't broken down. I would include everything in the vehicle sensor list, except for things like headlights. Plus a Gravity Sensor, which isn't on the list for vehicle list, though that may be the principal that densiometers work.
The Hinterworlds Rambler
SOC-14 5K
Not really. A ship must land sometimes. It can be good to hear what's going on at times.
I look at it from this perspective (and this may be IMTU, or whatever): There are two main types of "sensor" in use, Electromagnetic and Particle.
Early Electromagnetic Sensors (TL4-5+) can read one type of EM radiation, and usually in one parameter, IE "the radio signal's coming from that way". or "Heck, these rocks are Radioactive!"
Later on (Lets say 7+ for the sake of argument), Sensors get more and more sophisticated and more attunable to operator needs, programmable.
For me, EM sensors are an "Umbrella" that cover everything from Life Detection (Organic Bodies as we know them DO produce electrical impulses, it is making sensors that can percieve them properly is the challenge.) to all sorts of practical Detection.
Some thoughts:
Object Composition (Spectrograph)
Object Relative Density
Localized Power Sources ID (direction, intensity)
Magnetic Feild ID (strength, etc. )
Detection of Ore Deposits or Bodies of Nearby water.
Radio Astronomy
Radio
TV
Radar
Particle Sensors actually shoot particles at the target, Like an X-Ray Machine or a CAT Scan, Or MRI. This Includes Meson types. It is the Active element of these types of sensors that differentiates them. Though they are closely linked in function. A TL 15 Sensor should let you see things in "subatomic and beyond" detail, if that's what you're looking for.
I look at it from this perspective (and this may be IMTU, or whatever): There are two main types of "sensor" in use, Electromagnetic and Particle.
Early Electromagnetic Sensors (TL4-5+) can read one type of EM radiation, and usually in one parameter, IE "the radio signal's coming from that way". or "Heck, these rocks are Radioactive!"
Later on (Lets say 7+ for the sake of argument), Sensors get more and more sophisticated and more attunable to operator needs, programmable.
For me, EM sensors are an "Umbrella" that cover everything from Life Detection (Organic Bodies as we know them DO produce electrical impulses, it is making sensors that can percieve them properly is the challenge.) to all sorts of practical Detection.
Some thoughts:
Object Composition (Spectrograph)
Object Relative Density
Localized Power Sources ID (direction, intensity)
Magnetic Feild ID (strength, etc. )
Detection of Ore Deposits or Bodies of Nearby water.
Radio Astronomy
Radio
TV
Radar
Particle Sensors actually shoot particles at the target, Like an X-Ray Machine or a CAT Scan, Or MRI. This Includes Meson types. It is the Active element of these types of sensors that differentiates them. Though they are closely linked in function. A TL 15 Sensor should let you see things in "subatomic and beyond" detail, if that's what you're looking for.
Ran,
A perfect example of how to give the players what they want without giving the players what they want. They wanted military sensors, they got military sensors, but they forgot they would also need military processors! No GM fiat, just an application of Real World facts that the players could not argue about.
Your work as the GM in that situation was excellent.
Later tonight, I shall quaff one in your honor!
Have fun,
Bill
Baron,
A minor nit. MRIs do not 'shoot particles' at anything. They measure the resistence of certain atoms; mostly hydrogen, to a rapidly changing magnetic field.
Think of the atom in question as a gyroscope. As the magnetic field 'flips', the atom resists the 'motion' just as a spinning gyoscope resists being moved out of its initial orientation.
A MRI machine measures the varying amounts of that resistence and one helluva computer program puts all the data together in a picture we can then understand.
Have fun,
Bill
I beg to differ about the MRI. The MRI uses an intense magnetic field to align then flip the atom (usually hydrogen). But it detects the flips by catching the radio waves generated by each flip in a directional antenna in the machine itself. A computer then matches the radio waves with the pattern of the magnetic field flips to generate an image.
So an MRI does "shoot particles". If an x-ray or CAT scanner shoots particles, the MRI does to, it just generates them inside you.
So an MRI does "shoot particles". If an x-ray or CAT scanner shoots particles, the MRI does to, it just generates them inside you.
Thanks Bill, I try!
Ran,
It's the old 'lemonade from lemons' trick. A GM must be able to do it repeatedly, on the fly, and with confidence.
You neatly flipping the PCs' desire for better sensors into an adventure hook made lemonade from quite a large lemon. The 'price' you made the PCs pay; not being able to read all the data, having to shut down other systems to use the array, etc., is fine example of this trick too.
Have fun,
Bill
It's the old 'lemonade from lemons' trick. A GM must be able to do it repeatedly, on the fly, and with confidence.
You neatly flipping the PCs' desire for better sensors into an adventure hook made lemonade from quite a large lemon. The 'price' you made the PCs pay; not being able to read all the data, having to shut down other systems to use the array, etc., is fine example of this trick too.
Have fun,
Bill
IMTU, the standard sensor package for a starship is generally what is found in a lot of Traveller supplements:
Electromagnetic Sensor (EMS) Array: This is a broadband array that can detect most electromagnetic radiation passively, from infrared up through gamma and X-rays. It also does active scans using radar out to the listed range increment for the sensor rating (and beyond with -4 per additional increment). This also includes spectography to determine composition of detected objects. This is the primary active/passive sensor for most ships.
Neutrino Sensor: This sensor detects particles from high energy sources like fission or fusion reactors, stars, or the like. The sensor really only tells the direction and relative power of the energy source; because of the nature of neutrino emmisions it can't give a precise location or type, though type can often be inferred from the strength of the emission. Any intense source such as a star will effectively "mask" weaker neutrino sources along the same bearing. Starship powerplants are detectable out to the sensor rating's listed range (or more at -4 per increment) though a much weaker source (say a small fusion cell in an air/raft) might only be detectable at a fraction of that range, and may be lost entirely in background noise depending on the situation. This is a passive sensor only.
Neural Activity Sensor: this detects the VERY weak EM activity in a living creature's neural structures, and can categorize them based on creature type if it is a known type in the database. Neural activity is such a weak signal, that this sensor is really only effective within a few hundred meters, or much less in a high EM noise environment. It also will not generally pinpoint positions to a greater resolution that 10-60 meters or so. This is a passive sensor only.
Electromagnetic Sensor (EMS) Array: This is a broadband array that can detect most electromagnetic radiation passively, from infrared up through gamma and X-rays. It also does active scans using radar out to the listed range increment for the sensor rating (and beyond with -4 per additional increment). This also includes spectography to determine composition of detected objects. This is the primary active/passive sensor for most ships.
Neutrino Sensor: This sensor detects particles from high energy sources like fission or fusion reactors, stars, or the like. The sensor really only tells the direction and relative power of the energy source; because of the nature of neutrino emmisions it can't give a precise location or type, though type can often be inferred from the strength of the emission. Any intense source such as a star will effectively "mask" weaker neutrino sources along the same bearing. Starship powerplants are detectable out to the sensor rating's listed range (or more at -4 per increment) though a much weaker source (say a small fusion cell in an air/raft) might only be detectable at a fraction of that range, and may be lost entirely in background noise depending on the situation. This is a passive sensor only.
Neural Activity Sensor: this detects the VERY weak EM activity in a living creature's neural structures, and can categorize them based on creature type if it is a known type in the database. Neural activity is such a weak signal, that this sensor is really only effective within a few hundred meters, or much less in a high EM noise environment. It also will not generally pinpoint positions to a greater resolution that 10-60 meters or so. This is a passive sensor only.
