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Pet peeve: Wet Navy in Space

Wasn't it David Weber who used the term "wall ships" in his novels? The novels are entertaining (though full of logical fallacies, and he definitely knows only 1% about economics of what he believes to know), and have some of the lines of thought the OP desires.

The German airships in WW1 had both naval and army versions, by the way. Later in the war, everything was concentrated in the navy, though.

Regarding ship designations, I would assume that realistically, the words for "cruiser" or "battleship" in the OTU have pnly minor etymological resemblance with today's naval terms. 3000 years into the future, language will have developped beyond recognition.
 
Ok, what do I mean Wet Navy in space?
Well I've noticed something that annoyed me. It's especially noticeable in the Clement Sector campaign, but also even in Star Trek...

...But that's not the point I wanted to make. As I said in Star Trek they use the same appellations: Cruiser, Destroyer, etc. When I keep getting told that it's supposed to be more like NASA.

What you are rallying against is called a role, basically a defined purpose.

A Cruiser is a vessel designed to operate at high speeds and to travel long distance and is armed with medium caliber weapons.

A Tanker is a vessel designed to transport large quantities of fluids over a great distance.

A Freighter is a vessel designed to transport a large quantity of material over a great distance.

The role or purpose hasn't changed - you have tanker and freight cars for a railroad, you have semis hauling tanker or cargo trailers, and you have tanker and container ships. While the technology and environment may change, the role has not.

But yes, Star Fleet is like NASA as its primary mission is one of exploration. That is why the USS Enterprise NCC-1701 is an Exploration Cruiser - a ship designed primarily for long range exploration and defense.

Carriers however are designed to launch fighter and support craft, yet most of the ones I've seen in various drawings hold shuttles, not fighters, which would make them the space going version of the Dock Landing Ship or the Amphibious Assault Ship.

But since many sci-fi fans seem to be military or military enthusiasts. They seem to go with what they're familiar with. Life in modern military navies. How ships are utilized, rank structure, etc.
To be fair, Gene Roddenberry was a pilot in the Army Air Corps, who flew a B-17E Flying Fortress bomber in WW2 and left as a captain. The arrangement of the bridge of the USS Enterprise resembles more the cockpit of an aircraft than that of a wet navy ship. The crew structure is an amalgam of the Army Air Corp and the Navy.

Now wouldn't different designations be better suited to the medium of space?
Really it depends on the role and that common frame of reference. But there is one vessel that appears in Star Trek that has never existed in the wet navy - the shuttle craft.

Now the reason I ask this is I was thinking of making a model for Star Trek. One with a huge hangar. Now their usual idea is Carrier. Like we have now. But wouldn't they have different ideas for it's purpose?
Since it can carry anything from fighters yes, but also runabouts, scout vessels, ambulances, shuttles, etc.? And their roles could vary. Why only fighters for a wargame?
War games you tend to focus on ships whose primary purpose is war - which is strange, because to my knowledge the only two ships ever built by the Federation for the express purpose of war in the Star Trek universe was the USS Defiant and the USS Vengeance. Games like Star Fleet battles are more like the Mirrorverse of Star Fleet.

I was thinking of calling mine a Crisis Intervention Cruiser. Filled to the brim with craft that could handle a whole set of problems: Disaster relief, evacuating colonies (Vulcan *cough*), setting up a quarantine zone, or even police support.

Crash course in ship design - ships have a primary role and one or more compatible secondary roles that help shape the vessel's requirements.

When I look at your list above, I see four conflicting roles.

Disaster relief - this is the movement of supplies and trained personnel for rescue and long term support. A requirement would be shuttles and transporters to move people and equipment. A mobile hospital unit that could be deployed to the disaster area would definitely be a part of that, to treat in the field and to move cases to the ship for advanced care. Disaster relief is a very common sort of emergency. Typically a non-combatant role.

Colony evacuation - basically a large ship with a lot of room for passengers with attendant life support and supplies and means of transporting them to and from the ship - once again shuttles and transporters. Only we already have ships built to move a large number of people - colonizers and cruise ships. And how often do colonies need evacuation that we would need to build a specialty ship for this? Vulcan was destroyed too quickly for anyone to respond. Typically a non-combatant role.

Quarantine - isolating a planet or a solar system? This would basically require a station and/or picket ships, as well as a network of early warning sensors, most likely satellites. The station, once in place, typically would not need to move much except for maintaining its position. How often does a quarantine get put in place? I can see the need for a large scale transport ship to move the station and attendant picket ships. Definitely combatant role.

Police Support - sounds like a mobile police station with court house and detention facilities. More civilian structure than military, probably non-combatant.

Possibly I could work colony evacuation and disaster relief roles together, say specialized drop ships that could be attached for disaster relief but that would still be at odds with the other two roles of quarantine and police support - and they are opposite roles from each other.

What might be better is to not put all the eggs in one basket, and instead create a task force. Need to set up a quarantine around a planet suffering severe destruction and needing evacuation? Why would you only send one ship for that? Instead, you send picket ships to guard the planet while a rescue ship helps the people on the surface and sends the wounded to the rescue ship's hospital ward while the able bodied and lightly injured could be put aboard a stream of transportation ships to a refugee camp on one or more worlds.

My question for everyone is: What different designations would you set up for a space born navy? Or what kind of vessels would there be to differentiate itself from a planet based one?

Pure space vessel, trans-atmospheric, shuttles, and drop ships.

And of course, spheres are only if it stays in space. Having to fly or land on planets means the usual boat or tower orientation.
Spheres are not streamlined and can experience significant atmospheric drag. They do excel at volume.

A science fiction story you may want to read is called Ker-plop by Ted Reynolds about the return of a ship from the Magellanic Clouds after a voyage of 300,000 years - a sphere with a radius of 5,000 km. Except it's actually a nested series of spheres, with the exception of the outer shell they're basically planets. The population of the galaxy tripled when this ship returns.

Star Wars' Death Star confuses me because the surface suggests nested spheres but the landing bay the Millennium Falcon is pulled into suggests a horizontal layering of decks.
 
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Tikon; as an experienced sailor who's read a lot about sailing ships, I think I can sympathize a little. There used to be a really huge Star Fleet Battles website run by Don Michael Miller, which had SSDs for a variety of periods and vessels made by fans of both game and TV show upon which it is based.

Back in the 90s when I was cruising the site I came across vessels called "Ketch", "Barkentines" and a number of other sailing only class vessels. I didn't get too worked up about it, but it did make me wonder if any of the SSD authors knew the difference between a bomb-ketch or a Dakou. I saw vessels labeled as yawls, schooners, gallies, galleons and a number of other terms borrowed from sailing era navy ships. I'm surprised no one borrowed any of the Chinese or Japanese classes.

But those were people who either didn't know what those classes were, or knew and wanted to make their work stand out anyway. I really don't get that same kind of vibe with Traveller HG ships. I think some of them are kind of funky looking, and I think things like CVs are there more for cinematic purpose to make adventuring really cool, than they are for any simulative or "realism" effect.

I think if you have artificial gravity, then you're going to have things like FFs, DDs, CLs, CAs, and BBs in space. Each one is going to be markedly different because of what that class is expected to do. So it does seem logical, to me at least, that classes used in wet navy parlance would or will be ported to space navies of the future.

How they maneuvre and exchange fire is probably going to be a little different than any game published to this day. As such we may see "new" classes of vessels, or re-invented classes borrowed from the dawn of armored cruisers. We may see Dreadnoughts or Monitors, or even anti-"ship class"-cruisers.

I doubt we'll see Drommonds (medieval "castle" vessel, the fore runner of the galleon) or other nomenclature that borrows from an era when the name defined how the ship maneuvred. We may. You never know. But military types and enthusiasts like names that are functional.

If you created a bomb-ketch or a barkentine for Traveller, then that might imply those classes were driven by solar sails. Inventive and creative, but probably not the ship you want to be on in a major engagement.

What might be interesting to see is a "space submarine" that "dives" into a plane of semi-jump-space, and is extra vulnerable when submerged, but has a stealth advantage.

It all depends on what direction the game goes, and who wants what.

Me, I'm not opposed to wet navy analogies, nor borrowing names and terminology. To each his own.

Something to think about is how would you make an aerospace version of big ships or transports, and would their atmospheric or space only operations require some added names or designators.

Your friendly neighborhood Blue Ghost.
 
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heh. the "ins junk" and the "iss sampan" and the "ins turtle" just don't sound dramatic ....

What about ...

INS Wugongchuan (蜈蚣船) ... one of the fearsome 'centipede ships' ... now we just need to figure out what a Traveller Centipede Ship is.

INS Mengchong (蒙衝) ... a Marine 'covered assaulter'

INS Louchuan (楼船) ... the so-called 'tower ships' are known for neither speed nor maneuverability, forming instead a mobile fortress around which a fleet can maneuver and from which power can be projected.
 
now we just need to figure out what a Traveller Centipede Ship is.

probably a galley. but wiki says ... "wugongchuan, or centipede ship - 16th century galley based on Portuguese types" ... whatever that means. anyway probably no traveller-equivilant to galley as all traveller ships use the same propulsion.

oh hey. "hai hu" means "sea hawk", might sound good to some cultures.

the so-called 'tower ships'

might be a good concept at tech 8-11. "can't go fast, but it's got a big gun." might describe planetary defenses better though.
 
chinese naval flag. looks almost vilani, grasping at a planet ....

Flag_of_the_Qing_Dynasty_%281889-1912%29.svg
 
"What might be interesting to see is a "space submarine" that "dives" into a plane of semi-jump-space, and is extra vulnerable when submerged, but has a stealth advantage."

The ST:TOS episode "Balance of Terror" was written to create the feeling of submarine warfare.
 
probably a galley. but wiki says ... "wugongchuan, or centipede ship - 16th century galley based on Portuguese types" ... whatever that means. anyway probably no traveller-equivilant to galley as all traveller ships use the same propulsion.
Where is your imagination? What about a fast ship with a spinal mount and lines of fighters mounted along the outside like the legs of a centipede. It releases the swarm to attack enemy ships and scrub them of weapons, while the mother ship prepares to take a killing shot with its big gun.
 
[Tower Ship] might be a good concept at tech 8-11. "can't go fast, but it's got a big gun." might describe planetary defenses better though.
Didn't one of the rules systems allow coaxial spinal mounts? Was it a FF&S thing?

Perhaps a buffered planetoid at TL 12 with 12 points of armor (18 points total) and 3 or 5 coaxial spinal mounts in a M1, J1 base that includes a repair yard and functions as a small Naval Depot in the 500k to 1 million dTon range. A Travelleresque 'Death Star' on a smaller scale. Something that can jump into a system and claim a gas giant and provide your fleet with a home port in the system.

A 1 million dTon ship could also mount 1000 x (100 dT) Bay Weapons instead.
 
What about a fast ship with a spinal mount and lines of fighters mounted along the outside like the legs of a centipede.

can be done, if you don't mind the redundant power plant and redundant fuel tank and redundant jump drive on your primary combatant. but the whole point of riders and transports is to put the combat capability forward while withdrawing the transport capability to the rear.

it would look cool, though.
 
True, but it has been said that in reality all ships should be spherical. If you're at the point where you have gravity directing propulsion. Instead of having a rear facing exhaust.

I'm not fond of spheres for combat if you're assuming the enemy's at a good distance off. I want something skinny and flattish so the beam hits the hull at a sharp angle, spreading its energy over a larger area. Yeah, if you get close and start flanking me, I might have a problem, but a sphere - if it's going to end up hitting mostly on the flat anyway, it's not really much better.

...Regarding ship designations, I would assume that realistically, the words for "cruiser" or "battleship" in the OTU have pnly minor etymological resemblance with today's naval terms. 3000 years into the future, language will have developped beyond recognition.

Which is I think the key point. We don't have the Vilani word for "huge ship-destroying starship", so we use the words we know. That doesn't mean everything has to be battleships and cruisers and destroyers, but some of the words communicate their role pretty well. Hard to beat "battleship" for a ship whose main role is to win battles. But, other good words show up in science fiction: scout, raider, skirmisher. Find something that sings the role of the ship, and it's all good.
 
Synonyms for battle :p

Altercation, argument, bout, brawl, clash, conflict, confrontation, disagreement, dispute, duel, feud, fisticuffs, melee, quarrel, rivalry, struggle, fracas, fray, hostility, joust, ruckus, strife, and tussle.

"Sir, sensors read a ship just jumped in!"
"Is it friendly?"
"Doubt it, it's a 10,000 ton Hostilityship.
 
Synonyms for battle :p

Altercation, argument, bout, brawl, clash, conflict, confrontation, disagreement, dispute, duel, feud, fisticuffs, melee, quarrel, rivalry, struggle, fracas, fray, hostility, joust, ruckus, strife, and tussle.

"Sir, sensors read a ship just jumped in!"
"Is it friendly?"
"Doubt it, it's a 10,000 ton Hostilityship.

"Two Oxford English Dictionaries locked and loaded."
"Standard edition?"
"No sir, unabridged!"
"Heh, they won't know what hit them."
 
Synonyms for battle :p

Altercation, argument, bout, brawl, clash, conflict, confrontation, disagreement, dispute, duel, feud, fisticuffs, melee, quarrel, rivalry, struggle, fracas, fray, hostility, joust, ruckus, strife, and tussle.

"Sir, sensors read a ship just jumped in!"
"Is it friendly?"
"Doubt it, it's a 10,000 ton Hostilityship.

Hum, and I am having a culture moment....

How about General Ruckus Unit Rufis..... (GRU Rufis)...
 
Suddenly I have this urge to create the Contrarians.

"Sir! A giant ship just jumped into the system!"
"Is it a warship bristling with weapons?"
"Uh, no. It... it looks like a theme park?"
"Gods, no! It's a tourist trap!"
 
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