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CT Only: Serious Discussion on CT/HG alt designs

Vladika

SOC-14 1K
I would like to start a serious dialog on "altering" design parameters.

My first example would be turrets.

Ex: If a 1dt triple turret holds up to three beam lasers, could a 2dt turret hold 6?

Each laser has to weigh 1/3 d tonnes or less.

Does the Fusion gun weight more? If so it should be replaceable with equal tonnage weapons, even though more per "slot".

Does the Fusion gun simply take up more space?

At any rate, could/should a 2dt turret be able to hold 2x 3 laser or missiles?

Let's discuss this both from a current rules point of view as well as logical arguments both for and against. And, let's keep it civil and agree to disagree...
 
Does the Fusion gun weight more? If so it should be replaceable with equal tonnage weapons, even though more per "slot".

Does the Fusion gun simply take up more space?

The design parameters don't deal with weight. It is volume.
 
So, if the Fusion gut takes up 1dt of volume for a turret slot in a 2dt turret, couldn't 3 lasers (total 1dt volume) occupy the same slot in a 2dt turret?

Again, not just by rules but logically. Same volume of weapons in the same volume slot.
 
So, if the Fusion gut takes up 1dt of volume for a turret slot in a 2dt turret, couldn't 3 lasers (total 1dt volume) occupy the same slot in a 2dt turret?

Again, not just by rules but logically. Same volume of weapons in the same volume slot.

Depends of the actual physical layout. But, that should work per the math you give.
 
Are we limiting this to turrets? 'cause, there's other stuff I wouldn't mind seeing tweaked.

Setting aside the game rules, logic suggests that if your hardpoint can accept a 5dT PA barbette, then it can accept a 5dT barbette housing 15 missile launchers. Except ...

... not all of that tonnage is in the turret/barbette. Consider the way the ship design sequence works: You add a 1 dT triple missile turret to your 100 dT scout and now you have 99dT left to work with, verses you add a 2dT fusion gun to your 100 dT scount and now have 98 dT to work with. Taking your scout and slapping a 2 dT fusion gun into the hardpoint didn't suddenly make it a 101 dT scout (which would have had implications for your jump drive). Nor can you add that turret on afterward without sacrificing something inside the ship - most likely a bit of cargo space. Weapon volume isn't treated as an add-on; it's taken from the ship's internal space.

All of that means slapping a 5 dT barbette on does not mean there's room for 5 dT worth of missile launchers in the barbette. The missiles are still being passed up from inside the ship to the turret through a hardpoint connection, the laser power cables and control lines still route through that hardpoint connection, and that connection itself may be the thing setting limits on how many missiles or lasers or what-have-you there can be up in that turret.

A second but important issue is game balance:

Three missiles/lasers in one turret establishes a balance of sort: that's as powerful as a 100 dT scout gets, the 200 dT trader carries twice the firepower, the 400 dT police cruiser carries 4 times the firepower. A poor free trader might have no turrets at all, a wealthy free trader might have six weapons in two turrets, but that's as powerful as he gets without getting a bigger ship.

Now we implement some rule that allows more weapons per turret - up to 5 times as many if we go to that big PA barbette. Now the free trader player needs to worry about 100 dT ships with up to 15 weapons - he has to worry about surviving up to 5 times as much firepower per turn of combat. Does that scout threatening him represent a minor threat, or can it punch him full of holes in a single turn of combat? Should you spend four or five times as much on weapons to keep up with the Joneses, or is there any safety to all that firepower when the pirate free trader facing you is sending 30 missiles your way?

Given the relative effectiveness of missile versus sandcaster, I do not think I would enjoy playing a free trader in a TU where I could find myself the target of a Macross Missile Massacre, even with 30 sandcasters at my disposal. Assuming I opted for a mix of offensive and defensive weaponry instead of all sandcasters, I do not think the pirate would enjoy it either, but that's only comforting for my next of kin.
 
Are we limiting this to turrets? 'cause, there's other stuff I wouldn't mind seeing tweaked.

Not at all. I just opened with the turret thing. I doubt I could go for barbettes either.

My thoughts were in making naval ships in CT more powerful.

Please feel free to raise any other ideas for tweaks. I'm a diehard CT fan but like some things from FFS like Shops, Sickbays, AutoDoc etc.

Was, and am, very interested in other points of view and ideas. I don't know if CT could be enhanced without destroying it but...I'd like to see.
 
Are you taking LBB2 rules or HG2 rules? Makes a difference.

The problem with HG2, is that the different mounting types do not scale alike - spinals, bays, turrets.
 
Are you taking LBB2 rules or HG2 rules? kMakes a difference.

The problem with HG2, is that the different mounting types do not scale alike - spinals, bays, turrets.

Let's keep both in discussion. Also, any thoughts on either are welcome.

CT & HG2 seem to be getting eclipsed by newer "better?" versions. I like both CT & HG2 (Parts of HG1 are very good). My hopes were going over things to reasonably add or modify without changing to much or ruining them.

Another idea; why not small-craft cabins for short term use in starships? They work fine for similar travel times in space going vessels so why not in say medium passage? Military enlisted quarters? Troop transports? I wouldn't use them for long term or permanent crews but they might/ could have some reasonable uses.

Without ruining CT or HG could we adopt features from Mongoose, T4, FFS?
 
If I were to tweak things, it'd be in the combat rules, not the design rules.

First is this:
The smallest ship puts out 250 Mw power; that's enough to power a small city. Warships vary from gigawatt to terawatt range. There must be tremendous heat output - I can't see how the heat exchangers wouldn't be glowing into the visible range. Even without that, a large mass within a light-second or two is not all that difficult to spot on infrared against the background of nothingness.

And yet, with 20 minutes to obtain a firing solution, your single laser has a 21 in 30 chance of missing when aimed at a nonevading destroyer-size target a light-second away, and a 10 in 36 chance of missing a battleship.

So, first thing, direct-fire beam weapons should be a lot more accurate.

Second: sandcasters. Against missiles, fine, but if my "unarmored" factor-40-by-Striker-and-MegaTraveller hull cannot withstand a laser shot, then that cloud of sand is going to be little more than a lightshow when the laser passes through it. There is no amount of ablative material that you can squeeze into in a sandcaster canister that is going to be noticed by a laser capable of penetrating over a meter of steel at extreme range.

Now, make a laser more accurate without giving the merchant some defense, and we've got a problem. We still need something to serve the sandcaster role. I can see maybe an "ink cloud" effect as a countermeasure - shooting cannisters of some high-tech goo that expands into a cloud of some EM-opaque substance octopus-style, briefly blocking your view of the target craft and interfering with targeting before it disperses. However, that premise would affect all weapons, and it would work both ways. Needs some thought.

Third: the damage table. Three issues there - invulnerable ships, the crew hit, and the fershluggin' fuel-tanks-shattered result. The crew-1 bit was resolved in errata, nothing to add to that: they followed the Megatrav bit of dividing the crew into sections instead of letting a crew hit kill 90% of the crew.

As for invulnerable ships: no. In combination with that +6 penalty to weapon batteries of factor 9 or below (anything but spinal weapons), the game allows for high tech ships, or planetoid-hull ships, to carry so much armor that they can't be hurt except by mesons (and a little bit by PA spinals). However, except for mesons, you can't shoot without exposing your own weapons to potential damage, and even mesons depend on targeting equipment that has to be exposed to work. So, a roll of 2 should always result in at least a weapon-1 effect, regardless of how much armor there is.

And, that fuel-tank-shattered result: what warship designer in his right mind arranges fuel tanks so they all can be taken out in a single hit? My thought was, modeling off the Fuel-N result, make it 10% of the fuel volume, minimum 1000 dT - the result still cripples smaller ships like destroyers, but battlewagons can absorb it. McPerth some months back proposed something like 50dT per weapon rating.
 
And, that fuel-tank-shattered result: what warship designer in his right mind arranges fuel tanks so they all can be taken out in a single hit? My thought was, modeling off the Fuel-N result, make it 10% of the fuel volume, minimum 1000 dT - the result still cripples smaller ships like destroyers, but battlewagons can absorb it. McPerth some months back proposed something like 50dT per weapon rating.

100% on target! Both you and McPerth have great ideas here. Of the two I'd go with 50dT per weapon rating for each "fuel tanks shattered" result. Will certainly hurt smaller ships in short order but not all at once. Bigger ships would fare more appropriately.

Thanks for taking the time to provide some great input.
 
So, first thing, direct-fire beam weapons should be a lot more accurate.

I've always felt this way. Also, as written, they are way to week as point defense against missiles. (Missiles seem both to small and to powerful in my estimation too.)
 
I will note that Striker gives ship's lasers as 250MW multi-lens lasers... but building one takes 16 cubic meters... So you can't fit them in the turret tonnage at all. (Striker is also a CT product.)

C. Weapons: The Striker equivalents of various spaceship weapons are given below. When conducting direct fire on the battlefield, ship weapons have the same capabilities and fire control limits as other direct fire weapons. When firing from orbit, a forward observer is necessary.
1. Lasers: A shipboard laser is a beam or pulse laser with an input of 250 megawatts. The pulse laser has 3 lenses.
2. Plasma and Fusion Guns: A ship's plasma gun has in input of 250 megawatts; a fusion gun has an input of 500 megawatts. Neither is a rapid-pulse weapon.
A fusion or plasma gun bay is assumed, for game purposes, to contain 10 such weapons.
3. Missiles: Turret-mounted missiles have warheads equivalent to 15 cm CPR gun rounds; bay-mounted missiles have warheads equivalent to 25 cm CPR gun rounds. There are 25 launchers in a 50-ton bay, and 50 launchers in a 100-ton bay. Ship missiles have the same guidance system types as tac missiles: they may be target designated, homing, or drone. A launcher may fire one missile per turn, in the friendly fire phase.
4. Meson Guns: Meson guns have a burst radius equal to their High Guard ratings in cm, with A counted as 10, etc. They are used in the same way as battlefield meson accelerators.
5. Particle Accelerators: Particle accelerators are devastating against planets with atmosphere types of trace or vacuum, but completely ineffective against other atmosphere types. If one side has a particle accelerator in orbit over a trace or vacuum atmosphere world, the other side should surrender.
6. Sandcasters: Sandcasters may be used as a sort of giant shotgun. They attack all targets within their danger space, which is 4 cm wide at effective range, 8 cm at long range, and 12 cm at extreme range. Effective range in a standard atmosphere is 50 cm with a penetration of 20 and an autofire DM of +8. Long range is 100 cm with a penetration of 10 and an autofire DM of +6. Extreme range is 200 cm with a penetration of 5 and an autofire DM of +4.

(Striker, Bk 2, p. 41-42, section "Integration with Traveller")​
 
...
5. Particle Accelerators: Particle accelerators are devastating against planets with atmosphere types of trace or vacuum, but completely ineffective against other atmosphere types. If one side has a particle accelerator in orbit over a trace or vacuum atmosphere world, the other side should surrender...

That was always bizarre. PAs are, "devastating against planets with atmosphere types of trace or vacuum," but a well-armored planetoid hull's immune to the things. They aren't any more vicious than meson fire and a good deal less if you can put some armor (or rock) between you and the attacker. There's nothing to them that suggests a vacuum world should quiver in fear of them while stoically enduring meson blasts.

Er, buffered planetoid, I mean.
 
I really hope not! To my mind there is so much to discuss, particularly integration of later rules-sets or items.

Should Workshops be added, particularly in larger, long-range ships, and their benefits used as positive modifiers for tasks?

Can small-craft cabins be used short term for troop transport or medium passage, or, say steerage passengers at 4-6,000Cr per passage?

On upgrading HG warships what can be done with remaining tonnage from weapon upgrades of 50tons replacing those of 100tons in bays?

On upgrading HG warships should larger drives be allowed provided the original engineering space allotted for drives remains the same tonnage or smaller?

Hopefully CT will still have interested members. Perhaps it is just overshadowed due to T5 just coming out?

I'd like to see ideas incorporated into CT to keep it viable, fun, and not get to far from it's early flavor.
 
...I can see maybe an "ink cloud" effect as a countermeasure - shooting cannisters of some high-tech goo that expands into a cloud of some EM-opaque substance octopus-style, briefly blocking your view of the target craft and interfering with targeting before it disperses. However, that premise would affect all weapons, and it would work both ways. Needs some thought...

maybe remote sensor platforms beyond "the goo" that send feeds back to your side (aka fighters). maybe these "RSP's" fights each other for "sensor dominance" in the front ranks (possibly making fighters useful again)
 
That was always bizarre. PAs are, "devastating against planets with atmosphere types of trace or vacuum," but a well-armored planetoid hull's immune to the things. They aren't any more vicious than meson fire and a good deal less if you can put some armor (or rock) between you and the attacker. There's nothing to them that suggests a vacuum world should quiver in fear of them while stoically enduring meson blasts.

Er, buffered planetoid, I mean.

Most worlds, people live on the surface, not under it. Rock is far better than glass or metal.at stopping the particulate radiation from near C particle beams. Also note: Armored Buffered Planetoids are metal inside of rock - which attenuates much of the patriculate issues, and mutes the gamma and x-ray secondary radiation. the combination is about perfect for short term resistance. the silicates and nickle-metals should volatize under continued fire, tho'....

As for Workshops, etc: I like to incorporate them, but note that labs have been added in the errata, IIRC.
 
possibly making fighters useful again

At lower tech levels fighters rule. At higher level certainly their role must adapt to a new set of realities.

Fighters are still useful, just not as a primary strike weapon platforms.

They work very well in further reducing "wounded" ships. Another mission is as traditional cavalry in the pursuit mode against ships breaking off. Either those fleeing after sustaining to much damage, or support ships and tenders attempting to bug out of a soon to be lost battle.

They can keep non-line ships from refueling. In a one off battle this may not be important, but, in a campaign, it can be crucial.

They can be defended against, but, an opponent must spend more on certain defenses. This is an indirect way of winning; make your opponent spend credits on otherwise unnecessary items. (Again, this works far better in a campaign scenario).
 
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