Ship Building and TL

[Swiftbrook]

I’ve been designing some ships, currently using the MegaTraveller rules, and I have a question. How low a TL would ships be reasonably built? Does there come a price point where ships are not going to be built and instead be supplied by higher TL worlds?

Currently designing a 50t Modular Cutter.
By only changing the TL in my spreadsheet I get the following costs:

TL 10: 26.65 MCr
TL 11: 24.35 MCr
TL 12: 23.46 MCr
TL 13: 18.88 MCr
TL 14: 18.63 MCr
TL 15: 14.16 MCr

Almost all of the price difference is caused by the price drop in the power plant as the technology level increases.

The campaign is in the Spinward Marches. If it was near the Core, there are so many TL 15 worlds that it would be a moot point. This is a pre-Rebellion price comparison. In the Rebellion and post-Rebellion eras price is irrelevant as planets would spend/build whatever TL was left to them.

 

[Supplement Four]

I’ve been designing some ships, currently using the MegaTraveller rules, and I have a question. How low a TL would ships be reasonably built?

In CT, the TL chart shows the lowest TL that can build starships. Jump Drive requires TL 9+.

Isn't there a similar TL chart for MT?

This doesn't answer the monetary part of your question, but may give you a base for TL.

 

[Timerover51]

I’ve been designing some ships, currently using the MegaTraveller rules, and I have a question. How low a TL would ships be reasonably built? Does there come a price point where ships are not going to be built and instead be supplied by higher TL worlds?

Currently designing a 50t Modular Cutter.
By only changing the TL in my spreadsheet I get the following costs:

TL 10: 26.65 MCr
TL 11: 24.35 MCr
TL 12: 23.46 MCr
TL 13: 18.88 MCr
TL 14: 18.63 MCr
TL 15: 14.16 MCr

Almost all of the price difference is caused by the price drop in the power plant as the technology level increases.

The campaign is in the Spinward Marches. If it was near the Core, there are so many TL 15 worlds that it would be a moot point. This is a pre-Rebellion price comparison. In the Rebellion and post-Rebellion eras price is irrelevant as planets would spend/build whatever TL was left to them.

Basically, it depends if you allow for major components to be shipped in. I do not see anything in the rules that would keep, say, a Tech Level 8 World from importing the necessary Power Plant, Maneuver Drive, and Jump Drive to build a starship. It might cost quite a bit to ship them in, depending on how shipping charges are figured, but I could see it done. In The Traveller Book, Tech Level 7 planets can build non-starships.

 

[Jame]

And the higher a TL, the faster they build it.
That Type T that took 60 months to build at TL 9 takes 30 at tl 10 and 17 at TL 12.

 

[Spartan159]

And the higher a TL, the faster they build it.
That Type T that took 60 months to build at TL 9 takes 30 at tl 10 and 17 at TL 12.

Hmm, where is that information at? I've missed that somehow.

 

[AnotherDilbert]

How low a TL would ships be reasonably built?

Where are you going to do maintenance on the craft? Are you going to build a TL15 yard locally or ship them off to a TL15 world every year?

1 Pc away from a TL15 world the TL15 craft is very tempting, but 15 Pc away it's not so tempting anymore.


The capital cost (mortgage) of the TL10 craft is ~MCr 1.3 / year.
The capital cost (mortgage) of the TL15 craft is ~MCr 0.7 / year.

If it takes a few months every time you need repairs or maintenance you might need 2 TL15 craft instead of 1 TL10 craft negating the cheaper price.


What would it cost to build and maintain a TL15 repair yard locally?

 

[whartung]

MCr12 is quite a savings, and offers a lot of options for maintenance and shipping.

The question becomes "why aren't all of the shipyards importing TL15 parts to make modular ships and simply training the locals to service them".

 

[mike wightman]

Thus making every A class starport suitable for annual maintenance - like it was originally.

If only there were a network of trade lanes between type A staports moving such stuff...

And why can't a TL15 yard build a TL9 jump drive or power plant equipped ship more cheaply, and making it so it can be serviced at those type A TL9+ starports?

 

[Whipsnade]

And why can't a TL15 yard build a TL9 jump drive or power plant equipped ship more cheaply, and making it so it can be serviced at those type A TL9+ starports?

That's long been my extremely weak "explanation" for the differences between LBB:2's tables and LBB:5's percentages.

I never believed it to be remotely good, but it worked for my players and that's all that matters.

 

[flykiller]

And why can't a TL15 yard build a TL9 jump drive or power plant equipped ship more cheaply

or computers. tech 13 building a model 5 to model 3 size and power requirements ....

 

[Jame]

Hmm, where is that information at? I've missed that somehow.

In The Traveller Book it's included with the individual ship description.

I'm sure I got the time to build wrong. The specific time isn't my point, my point is that it should get faster with TL, and that I take the listed time as the build time at TL 9, were such a ship to be built AT TL 9.

 

[Timerover51]

Thus making every A class starport suitable for annual maintenance - like it was originally.

If only there were a network of trade lanes between type A staports moving such stuff...

And why can't a TL15 yard build a TL9 jump drive or power plant equipped ship more cheaply, and making it so it can be serviced at those type A TL9+ starports?

That is an interesting question, but I am not sure a TL15 yard could build a TL9 Jump Drive or Power Plant less expensively than the rules state. Looking at the shipbuilding charts in The Traveller Book, as Jump Drive and Power Plant capability increases, the cost per ton of Drive increases at a faster rate, making the more advanced Drive more expensive per ton of mass, rather than less expensive. A "W" rated Jump Drive has 11 times the mass of an "A" Jump Drive, but 21 times the price. A "W" rated Power Plant 16 times the mass, but again 21 times the price. Therefore, a TL15 Yard would produce a TL9 Drive or Power Plant more cheaply per mass ton than a TL15 Drive or Power Plant. Now, this would only work as long as there was no massive shift in technology.

Such a shift occurs in electronics between Tech Level 5 and Tech Level 8, with the shift from vacuum tubes to transistor and printed circuits. A while ago, in the early 1990s, I looked at building a Japanese WW2 Magnetic Airborne Detector as a low-cost option for submarine detection for smaller navies. Note, the Japanese detector's performance was quite comparable to the WW2 US one, and I had, and still have, the full circuit drawing for the detector. The problem was converting from vacuum tube to transistors. Vacuum tubes were no longer made, and even individual transistors were getting hard to get. The end result was the cost kept escalating on me.

As for building the equivalent of a Tech Level 5 Computer at say Tech Level 8 or 9 using printed circuits and circuit boards, that would be quite easy. Just look at the cost of a modern tablet, basic laptop, or cell phone. The laptop I am working on now is more capable than a Cray 2 supercomputer from the early 1980s. A Mod 1 computer made at TL9 should run about 2,000 credits, mass 10 kilograms, and run programs as a Mod 1 bis, if not a Mod 2.

As a House Rule for computers, I reduce price by 1,000, mass of the later computer by 10, and figure that they can run as many programs at the same time as their capacity.

 

[sfchbryan]

There are a number of issues to address with this.

1. Building a TLx ship where most of the starports aren't TLx. Example: How many TL 15 Class A starports are there in the Spinward Marches? Answer: 4.

This is why player-character ships should be in the TL12 range.

2. No one appears to be adjusting costs based on the TL level of the shipyard in question. Since everyone seems to be pulling from various and sundry parts of Traveller Canon - here is mine: In the rule books, all component costs are based on a TL15 shipyard. Now go look at the Relative Value Chart on Pg 32 of Trillion Credit Squadron. There is your cost solution dealing with ANY product from different tech levels. TL9 ships are cost effective, because they are 30% cheaper. Realistically, player characters aren't going to be buying new TL15 ships of the showroom floor. They are either buying used, or if they do buy new, they are probably buying TL9. This is more fun in MT - TL9 lack certain features like artificial gravity. Not to mention the joys of dealing with hydroponics.

3. Why can't a TL15 world make a TL9 power plant? For the same reason Newport News Shipyard can't make a reciprocating engine - They don't have the tooling.

4. OTOH, Traveller predates 3d printing. I use this to get around a lot of issues - For starship construction the TL level is the level of 3d printing available to the civilian market.

IMTU, any part can be extruded, within certain limits, based on TL. I use Hull composition materials as the marker (I had to pick something). Example: A TL15 shipyard can build down to TL12 (Bonded superdense to superdense); but not a TL9 (Lt. Composite Laminate).

When a ship needs a new part, they pay to have one extruded at the local shipyard. The task is:

Extrude Ship Part - To correctly input information into a 3D printer to manufacture a part.
Routine, Engineering, Edu 6 hr (uncertain)
Referee: Cautious Attempt lowers difficulty level to Simple. No Truth - the part doesn't fit. (wrong unit of measurement used) Some Truth: The part fits, but is defective in some way. Roll on the Mishap Table each time the subsystem is used. Total Truth: Part works normally. Uncertain is used because the part may not fail immediately. Extraordinary Success and Failure is possible.

The player characters in my campaign are flitting around in a TL9 Zhodani free trader (the MN-09 Fanzhienz). They can get parts made, but it is a little more difficult for them - Good news: They have a complete set of manuals (10/30/50/70 in US Army parlance). Bad news: they are machine translated from Zdetl to Ganglic.

5. Timerover51 - if you want tubes, you have to order them from Russia - They were late to the party on transistors, so they took tube tech a lot farther than the US did. Computer sizes in Traveller are valid. They are big for a reason. Your home PCs aren't shielded for radiation, nor are they designed to work in a harsh environment. Most of you have never seen a military hardened computer system - they are bigger than what you can pick up at the local Mal-Wart.

6. Jame - there is a potential to build faster - assuming that the shipyards have unused capacity. Shipyards that have empty slips don't tend to stay in business. And tech level doesn't always equate to faster building - compare building an Essex class carrier in WWII vs a carrier today. Got to have the workforce to go with it.

7. Whartung - Nothing preventing it - but costs would still go up - labor would be cheaper, but you have to factor in both transportation costs and the variable rate of the Imperial Credit - TL9 credits only go 70% as far as a TL15 credit.

 

[vegas]

And why can't a TL15 yard build a TL9 jump drive or power plant equipped ship more cheaply, and making it so it can be serviced at those type A TL9+ starports?

It could...

CT B4 is explicit that prices drop 5-15% for each tech higher level after introduction. GT uses the probably more realistic 50% price drop for the first 2 TLs after introduction.

but...

it doesn't make economic sense for it to happen. TL15 products should be in huge demand because of their features and relative scarcity. Theory of comparative advantage tells us that TL15 manufacturers should be putting all their resources into making TL15 products and exporting them, rather than building lower TL products that could be built elsewhere.

4. OTOH, Traveller predates 3d printing. I use this to get around a lot of issues - For starship construction the TL level is the level of 3d printing available to the civilian market.

That seems to be a common throught process around these boards, but if that is the model, you create a real problem trying to explain why technology doesn't transfer more, and why every planet isn't TL15. If all I need is a TL15 maker, I should buy one/(or 1000s) and take it/(them) to my planet. If it is that easy, there would only be one TL everywhere with few exceptions.

I think it is an easier story to spin that equipment needed to produce high TL components is expensive and complex, requiring significant investments in human and physical capital. It isn't a 3d print job, it is a quantum mechanical/sub-atomic particle physics/string-field theoretic/5th & 6th fundamental force-engineering job to manufacture, test, yield, and build reliably these items. Once the components are made, sure, anyone can do the gross assembly, but it is getting working, quality parts that is the technology barrier.

 

[Supplement Four]

CT B4 is explicit that prices drop 5-15% for each tech higher level after introduction. GT uses the probably more realistic 50% price drop for the first 2 TLs after introduction.

In general? Or, are they talking about military weapons (and not everything.)

Difference commodities drop price at different rates.

I haven't re-read the section in a long time, though.

 

[vegas]

The wording in B4 is "in general" or some such thing (I'll look it up when I get home) but definitely is not limited to military items. Neither is GT.

If you wanted to exclude any particular item in YTU as with most things traveller, the wiggle room is there, you just have to have your story why.

 

[vegas]

Here is the quote, B4 p43, in sub-section "Notes on Prices and Tech Level":

"In general, prices will tend to drop by 5-15% at each tech level after the level of introduction of an item, with examples of the item sold at the regular base price generally incorporating improvements or representing deluxe models."

So TL advances get you cheaper stuff or improved quality. Tellingly, the next sentences limits its scope to "items of a military nature" which is a clear indicator that the prior sentence was not so limited.

And again, GT isn't limited at all as far as I am aware and is certainly not limited to military items when its declared in GT:FT p18, in sidebar "Technology, Productivity, and Exchange Rates":

"...one TL after an item's introduction, the price drops to 50%; two TLs after, the price drops to 25%. This implies that productivity in manufacturing sector doubles every TL. Overall productivity for a society does not double every TL, because not everything is a recently introduced manufactured product."

 

[Carlobrand]

... How low a TL would ships be reasonably built? ...

What are you using it for, and who is paying?

Merchant craft are most profitable if produced at the highest tech level, and they lose money at low tech levels. Ergo, it's hard to see merchant craft being produced at lower tech levels under MegaTraveller rules. One could argue there are only a few high tech ports, but no business buys a merchant ship that's going to lose money straight off the slipways, so that argument only goes so far. The Marches' 4 tech level 15 worlds account for almost 9 1/2 % of the Marches population, though they only account for 1% of the systems.

The Marches' 54 A-ports total a bit under 156 billion population (based on SMC data). Of the ones capable of building starships, there is
Fornice (20 billion, TL C), Porozlo (20 billion, TL B), Mora (10 billion, TL F), Trin (10 billion, TL F), Mire (per errata 10 billion, TL D), Strouden (9 billion, TL D), Cronor (8 billion, TL D), Vilis (8 billion, TL A), Efate (8 billion, TL D), Glisten (8 billion, TL F), Lunion (8 billion, TL D), Rhylanor (8 billion, TL F), Sacnoth, (per errata 8 billion, TL C), Jewell (6 billion, TL C), Gram (per errata 6 billion, TL C), Palique (3 billion, TL E), and Darrian (2 billion, TL G). These 17 account for 152 billion, so the remaining 37 can be discounted as minor players on the shipbuilding scene.

So, 2 billion at TL G, 36 billion at TL F, 3 billion at TL E, 43 billion at TL D, 40 billion at TL C, 20 billion at TL B, 8 billion at TL A.

All of the rules systems that addressed GWP directly or indirectly would have given GWP advantage to the higher tech worlds, i.e. they have more productive economies. So, the 36 billion of the four TL 15 worlds account for about 9 1/2 % of the Sector's population but might account for 12-15% of the sector's economic base. Now consider that interstellar trade represents only a fraction of the sector's economic activity - much of a world's production will be consumed locally on worlds of billions and tens of billions of people - that there won't be more interstellar merchant ships than the market can bear (at least not for long) and that ships can last for 4 decades or more. It's possible and even likely that those four TL 15 worlds dominate merchant ship production, either directly or by shipping parts to the lower tech ports. There's enough production base to do it and ship buyers have no incentive to buy lower tech ships that cost more.

 

[AnotherDilbert]

Merchant craft are most profitable if produced at the highest tech level, and they lose money at low tech levels.

I agree, but with a small caveat.

Free Traders are built to service fly-over country, the megacorps handle the hi-pop systems.

So I imagine the Free Traders will use simpler tech, to be maintainable on the marginal worlds they normally visit. Any hi-tech advantage in profit-margin evaporates if you need to travel a few months for repairs, or wait for spare part to be shipped in...

The major trade routes would be served by large hi-tech ships.

 

[McPerth]

I’ve been designing some ships, currently using the MegaTraveller rules, and I have a question. How low a TL would ships be reasonably built? Does there come a price point where ships are not going to be built and instead be supplied by higher TL worlds?

Currently designing a 50t Modular Cutter.
By only changing the TL in my spreadsheet I get the following costs:

TL 10: 26.65 MCr
TL 11: 24.35 MCr
TL 12: 23.46 MCr
TL 13: 18.88 MCr
TL 14: 18.63 MCr
TL 15: 14.16 MCr

Almost all of the price difference is caused by the price drop in the power plant as the technology level increases.

The campaign is in the Spinward Marches. If it was near the Core, there are so many TL 15 worlds that it would be a moot point. This is a pre-Rebellion price comparison. In the Rebellion and post-Rebellion eras price is irrelevant as planets would spend/build whatever TL was left to them.

As you're talking about MT, see that the main difference in price comes from the Power Plant size: TL 9-12 need triple PP, and TL 13-14 double volume as a TL 15 would (for the same power), and the price per kl remains the same.

Also, at TL 9 you don't have neither artifical gravity nor inertial compensators, making the ships quite uncomfortable (and so a poor choice for commercial shipping).

So, I'd say only dire need would make ships to be built at TL9 (more so for comercial ones).

Little shipping would be built under TL 13 (due to increased power plant costs), only building them if maintenance (or more probably repairs and parts replacements) musttake the ship too far.

Of course, TL 15 is where shipping costs are more efficient, but you can expect to also be the most cloged shypyards (more so in fromtier áreas, as SM).