Ship Computer Size

[aramis]

Warwizard mentions explicitly what I didn't, as part of the package: infrastructure like routers. Especially routers. You might have a cute little box - all 'aerodynamically shaped' and such - sitting on your desk or a shelf. This system of systems I work with has something more like this. Yeah, that's 10U or 14U or some such, and it's some of the newest stuff. (My little 4-port is jealous, now.)

One school I worked at, having 30 classrooms (and 22 classes) had 8 racks of hubs, 3 routers and 6 switching hubs, plus 4 wireless access points. The school had 3x 1000bT lines in from the telco's leased line router - one of which was routed to the lab for it's 35 computers. The second was routed for the 3 WAPs. The 3rd was for all the other 100-some-odd hard wired computers in the building. All three routers also connected to each other. The Lab Server used quad-100BT to the rack room instead of the apple-specification-called-for 1000BT in-lab.

Fun trivia - between 7:00 and 8:45, and 15:45 and 17:00, fastest way to the net was via the lab, then the wired ports. During the teaching day, it was via the wireless hubs.

 

[BytePro]

No problem with CT ship computer rules... we're talking science fiction afterall.

CT 'programs' are more like expert systems, not 'apps', and the equipment must connect to an entire shipboard system, be serviceable, and be environmentally resilient. If you want RW analogies - check out major shipboard systems and Fortune 500 enterprise computing centers - including the circuitry and support equipment.

Yeah, a few iPods have more raw processing power than a 28 million U.S. dollar, plus infrastructure, massively parallel supercomputer I worked with before the turn of the century. Looked at for these aspects, one easily outperforms, and the mid range models have more storage, than the 3 racks of 36 servers plus drive arrays that powered the IT department of a billion dollar company I worked at. However, try attaching hundreds of users to it - i.e. hundreds or thousands of system wide interconnects to support starship systems. And if you drop it, its all over (though you might be backed up in the clouds!).

Power a modern handheld device in a steel box in a vacuum thermos running a 3D game and see how long it lasts. Randomly hit it with gamma rays. Attach 700 armored cables to it. Trust your life to it. :smirk:

A starship computer can be presumed to support a lot of secondary systems - like shipboard consoles, entertainment devices, internal and external surveillance and archiving, signal analysis - along with monitoring of all shipboard systems, etc., in addition to running primary programs such as maneuver and jump. A fair RW analogy to this, IMO, is http://www.olcf.ornl.gov/titan/

 

[BytePro]

...
Heck, the TL differences of the main computers really don't make much sense to me, either, since the odds are that there won't be a whole lot of improvement past TL10... and if there is, it's most likely to be reductions in manufacturing cost (by reduced waste and improved automation). ...

The redeeming factor there is that the tonnage increases along with the capacity (and J-Drive support) - so its not as drastic an across the board tech improvement.

My concession add-on house rule decreases dTons with higher TLs of a given model to that of prior models, while retaining the increased capacity and capability. So TL A Model-3 requires 2 dTons, rather than 3. At TL B+ it only masses 1 dTon (= Model-1 dTon, the limit). A TL 15 Model-6 is 3 dTons rather than 7 (=Model-3).

 

[warwizard]

Warwizard: double redundancy should require 1 port on each machine, not two, for the redundant interface. Triple should require two each - one to each other computer.

Some ascii art should help.

             S                S
A=========== Y   A=========== Y
| \          S   |            S
|   C======= T   |            T
| /          E   |            E
B=========== M   B=========== M
             S                S

Computer A connects one port to router A and one port to Router B requiring two ports for double redundancy or else your one router becomes a single point of failure. That's how we do Storage Area Networks (SAN) where we desire redundancy the hard drives have two data ports, the storage system has two controllers, each one accessing one of the two ports on each hard drive, each storage system has two battery backups, each controller has two fibre optic ports one port to switch A and the other port to switch B. Everything is doubled even down to the hard drives access.

Comp A   ---------->Router A and Router B
Comp B   ---------->Router B and Router A

Router A to interface A on all systems
Router B to interface B on all systems

 

[The Dragon Master]

After a good nights rest, that's definitely where the disconnect was. If you think of the 'ships computer' as just the server that's running things, then of course it's too big. But that doesn't jive with the realities of networking, and after setting up a network for 200 local users running virtual systems over a WAN I really should have caught that assumption. Yes, the servers get smaller over time, even ones designed to work in harsh conditions, but as you integrate more of your environment with the computer systems you tend to end up with more wiring, more routers, more power requirements, more terminals (I could go on, but I won't).

Think I'll build a ship this week, then run the numbers on the RW dimensions on the infrastructure requirements. You know, I think I'll start referring to it as the Ship's Computer Infrastructure instead of Ship's Computer to keep me thinking about all of the things included in that.

 

[Fritz_Brown]

One of the things I did when young (and assumed the Traveller ship computer was a single mainframe) was to install multiple Mod1s (I think it was) on a ship. I tasked 1 for Fire Control, 1 for Life Support, 1 for Navigation, etc. Then I networked them, and put each of the programs on several computers in their storage. If the Fire Control computer went offline, I could run it on the Life Support computer, etc.

Now, of course, I would just assume the computer *is* multiple machines, virtualized, and includes the network and everything associated with it.

 

[Carlobrand]

After a good nights rest, that's definitely where the disconnect was. If you think of the 'ships computer' as just the server that's running things, then of course it's too big. But that doesn't jive with the realities of networking, and after setting up a network for 200 local users running virtual systems over a WAN I really should have caught that assumption. Yes, the servers get smaller over time, even ones designed to work in harsh conditions, but as you integrate more of your environment with the computer systems you tend to end up with more wiring, more routers, more power requirements, more terminals (I could go on, but I won't) ...

So that big ol' 13 dT Model 9 isn't one monolithic house-size thing; it's equipment scattered throughout the ship, along with workstations and server rooms and closets tucked in here and there with the equipment serving that particular site. And, the little 1dT Model-1 is maybe like a 5-by-10 room with computer equipment and a workstation and chair, rather than some 5-by-10 box-like monstrosity out of the 1950's with flashing lights and tape memory. The volume is as much the space a person needs to get at it all as the space the thing itself physically takes up.

That works, since the design rules don't really speak to space for the people operating all of that machinery. The only human-occupied space it directly speaks to is the staterooms and a wee bit of the bridge. We have to assume a bit of room out of the drive volume for engine room space, and the turrets by convention include room for the gunner's position. Makes sense we'd have to make allowances for the people servicing and using the computer under the "computer" volume.

 

[Frankymole]

Didn't it say somewhere that staterooms' tonnage included life support and "circulation space" i.e. ship's corridors and so on that require life support?

 

[snrdg082102]

Hello Frankymole,

Didn't it say somewhere that staterooms' tonnage included life support and "circulation space" i.e. ship's corridors and so on that require life support?

CT Book 5 HG 2 page 33

"Staterooms actually average about 2 tons, but the additional tonnage is used to provide corridors and access ways, as well as galley and recreation areas."

 

[rancke]

CT Book 5 HG 2 page 33

"Staterooms actually average about 2 tons, but the additional tonnage is used to provide corridors and access ways, as well as galley and recreation areas."

And as the top meter of the 3.5 meter decks contains ship stuff, a stateroom effectively take up less than 2 dT; it takes up four squares, which is two dT worth of squares, but only about 70% of that is the room cubage itself.


Hans

 

[aramis]

And as the top meter of the 3.5 meter decks contains ship stuff, a stateroom effectively take up less than 2 dT; it takes up four squares, which is two dT worth of squares, but only about 70% of that is the room cubage itself.


Hans

Actually, Hans, 14/2.25=6.2222, which means it's ony 3.111m tall, and the deck is 0.1m of that. So there's probably only 0.5-0.75m of overhead. And in editions without separate LS (CT, T20, MGT), that's probably where the lockers, machinery, and such are.

(3.5m deck-to-deck was TNE - but also was a single 2x2m square - 4x3.5=14 per dTon)

 

[rancke]

Actually, Hans, 14/2.25=6.2222, which means it's ony 3.111m tall, and the deck is 0.1m of that. So there's probably only 0.5-0.75m of overhead. And in editions without separate LS (CT, T20, MGT), that's probably where the lockers, machinery, and such are.

(3.5m deck-to-deck was TNE - but also was a single 2x2m square - 4x3.5=14 per dTon)

Checking the illustrations in Traders and Gunboats with the Mark I eyeball, you are quite right. (I thought T&G had some text on the subject, but it seems I was wrong).


Hans

 

[snrdg082102]

Hello ranke,

Originally Posted by snrdg082102

CT Book 5 HG 2 page 33

"Staterooms actually average about 2 tons, but the additional tonnage is used to provide corridors and access ways, as well as galley and recreation areas."

And as the top meter of the 3.5 meter decks contains ship stuff, a stateroom effectively take up less than 2 dT; it takes up four squares, which is two dT worth of squares, but only about 70% of that is the room cubage itself.

Hans

Thanks for the extra information, I haven't gotten down to that level yet.

 

[rancke]

Hello ranke,



Thanks for the extra information, I haven't gotten down to that level yet.

Note Wil's corrections to my post.


Hans

 

[snrdg082102]

Hello again ranke,

Note Wil's corrections to my post.


Hans

Yes, I noted the post by aramis and did a goal seek using Excel which surprised me since I came up with the same 6.2222.

Regardless, plumbing, piping, ducting, and wiring are all going to be routed in the overhead, under the deck, behind interior walls, and through bulkheads in the common spaces where possible. There are probably areas in the common areas that you might see them, but they tend to be hidden as much as possible.