CT Only: Ship Damage Drama System- Making Space Hurt

[whartung]

TNE does all of this. 20 hit locations, each location has systems divided among them during ship design, so each ship has it's own table to relate system to locations, both on the surface and internally. Basically they're distributed by mass with some items big enough to be in multiple locations.

See no reason it can't be adapted readily if you want this kind of detail.

 

[flykiller]

I'm leaning towards requiring a 'conning' station for at least piloting near worlds, stations, definitely streamlined landing procedures, etc. but putting your whole CIC, jump, security and avionics on the bow that says 'shoot me please and disable the whole ship'- not a chance.

for me, "bridge" includes sensors, comms, and navigation. these will be exterior. yeah, you can put the people seats anywhere you want, and they'll be looking at screens, but the screens will not be looking at bulkheads, they'll be looking at exterior sensors, and to look outside those have to BE outside.

mostly out to get to a hook and visualization onto describing what happened, who got hurt, and what heroic battle repair will be needed to get going again.

bingo. you don't want d100 at the table, it's fine for detail but then you have to account for that detail, and the players will fight for every last .01 they can get.

 

[kilemall]

TNE does all of this. 20 hit locations, each location has systems divided among them during ship design, so each ship has it's own table to relate system to locations, both on the surface and internally. Basically they're distributed by mass with some items big enough to be in multiple locations.

See no reason it can't be adapted readily if you want this kind of detail.

Ah, but Im guessing its still a general hit table any hit could hit anywhere even though the ship may not be bearing that system at the time of the shot, yes?

The point is not necessarily to distribute the ship systems to X percentage per hit section, but

to create a directional hit mechanism that allows you to visualize how each hit tore up whatever and create a scene onboard the ship for the (surviving) crew to deal with, and

to give a sense of 'fighting the ship' to the crew so what section is facing which opponent counts in large amounts.

Not terribly interested in jumping systems, I would go to T5 if I were going anywhere else but CT/HG. Minus the 1000D grav thing, an IMTU guy has his standards.

 

[kilemall]

for me, "bridge" includes sensors, comms, and navigation. these will be exterior. yeah, you can put the people seats anywhere you want, and they'll be looking at screens, but the screens will not be looking at bulkheads, they'll be looking at exterior sensors, and to look outside those have to BE outside.

Hmm, the whole avionics thing. Ya, getting back into these deck plans reminds me of that whole meme.

Best I can figure is those things were drawn with the Avionics in the nose as an analogy of the big honking radar and electronic board placement for fighter and passenger/cargo planes.

Well I figure time and technology has moved on and most starships are designed as high assurance systems, as in this thing can take a hit and still maneuver to avoid hitting startown/station docks, much less avoid being knocked out with one hit as a military ship.

So while it would always hurt getting hit in the bridge, re: sensors I have them embedded in the hull mostly in an array format, both to increase capacity as arrays tend to do and be redundant in time of disastrous space object impact or combat.

Sensors therefore get hurt as part of the hull damage scheme, along with other subsystems that are rarely listed or considered.

In this damage paradigm, one possibility is that shots keep punching through now empty fuel tanks and hitting nothing of merit, but eventually through sheer dint of tearing up accessways and conduits, cuts off power and/or control between engineering and the bridge.

bingo. you don't want d100 at the table, it's fine for detail but then you have to account for that detail, and the players will fight for every last .01 they can get.

If I can't handle players, I don't deserve the ref title.

 

[whartung]

Ah, but Im guessing its still a general hit table any hit could hit anywhere even though the ship may not be bearing that system at the time of the shot, yes?

Yes and no.

Each different hull configuration allows different hit locations to "bear" through a particular direction. But one consideration is there's not "left" or "right" (or I should say no difference between left or right) as the system assumes ships can, and do, rotate freely on their main axis. So, for example, one of the bearings is "broadside" which accounts for much of the ship. Take a D20 (since that's the fundamental mode), put a finger on two opposing faces, look at the side of the die, and rotate it, and you can see how every face but the two you have your fingers on is "visible" from the "broadside". So, hit location does matter, but on the other side of the coin, for many hull types, most locations are hittable from from many bearings. For example, a scout ship (needle shape hull) has 15 of the 20 location visible and vulnerable from a head on shot. Seems a little counter intuitive, but when you look at a 20 sided die, and form it as a wedge in your head, it makes sense.

Once a location is determined, then only those systems in that location can be damaged ... initially. After the initial damage is applied, anything left is applied as "excess damage" and this damage starts to walk along the ship. If you hit location 5, and get some excess damage, then that damage will hit either location 6 (incrementing the initial location) or location 4 (decrementing). So the locality of the hit matters.

For example, when you lay out the crews quarters in the ship, when you initially assign them to the ship that is, may well place them apart so that they're not right next to each other -- helping ensure that at least a single hit can take out a bunch of your crew quarters. By the same token, when a crew quarters takes a hit, you'll know which block of them are hit. Obviously you can't scatter you M-Drive like that, if that were big enough to occupy more than one section, you would divide it up among adjacent sections.

Also, the system is detailed enough (thanx to FF&S) that you could, for example, have armor on the ship, but also extra internal armor around, say, the power plant, and the damage would have to penetrate both the outer armor and the inner armor to damage the power plant.

The point is not necessarily to distribute the ship systems to X percentage per hit section, but to create a directional hit mechanism that allows you to visualize how each hit tore up whatever and create a scene onboard the ship for the (surviving) crew to deal with, and to give a sense of 'fighting the ship' to the crew so what section is facing which opponent counts in large amounts.

Well this will do that. It will certainly take out specific chunks of the ship.

Not terribly interested in jumping systems, I would go to T5 if I were going anywhere else but CT/HG. Minus the 1000D grav thing, an IMTU guy has his standards.

You can just adopt the damage location system. The key criteria is that damage hits the ship, damage is applied to any external equipment mounted on the hull (like an antenna for example), any damage left must then penetrate the armor, and then the damage starts being applied to internal systems. But even that detail is not really necessary. You can simply use the allocation system across the 20 spaces and the hull configurations to help determine hit location, and apply damage however you want.

It's a pretty detailed system, you can pick and choose the bits you want. Hit location and internal allocation doesn't have anything to do with damage taken or how it's applied. So you can just lift the location/allocation parts, ignoring the entire combat and maneuver system.

 

[Shadowrunner]

The chances of hitting a critical system with one shot at a scout courier, are different from the chances of hitting a critical system on a death star, unless you're a psionic farmboy with a missile. So I have reached the point where I am looking at having bespoke hit location tables for each individual ship. We've always considered ship design a fair point in using the rules, especially with redundancy. Dual power plants, the difference between two engine nacelles and four or even eight engine nacelles and so on we always factored in for M-Drives, but not J-Drive, damage to J-Drive was non-negotiable or guaranteed a misjump or suicide. Launch rules would be modified sometimes also according to ship design and position of vehicle bays.

 

[kilemall]

Yes and no.

Each different hull configuration allows different hit locations to "bear" through a particular direction. But one consideration is there's not "left" or "right" (or I should say no difference between left or right) as the system assumes ships can, and do, rotate freely on their main axis. So, for example, one of the bearings is "broadside" which accounts for much of the ship. Take a D20 (since that's the fundamental mode), put a finger on two opposing faces, look at the side of the die, and rotate it, and you can see how every face but the two you have your fingers on is "visible" from the "broadside". So, hit location does matter, but on the other side of the coin, for many hull types, most locations are hittable from from many bearings. For example, a scout ship (needle shape hull) has 15 of the 20 location visible and vulnerable from a head on shot. Seems a little counter intuitive, but when you look at a 20 sided die, and form it as a wedge in your head, it makes sense.

I already have this covered.

In an example I will do after I detail the hit location of the example scout is an otherwise classic LBB2 battle without anything else of my system involved. I will demonstrate what I mean by facing, which includes roll axis position.

They may be rolled with turret bearing exposing the top stern, but one might have their port stern exposed and the other the starboard stern to protect specific fuel tanks. Or roll ventral exposed to cover the computer/turret but leaving all 4 fuel tanks vulnerable in addition to the bow bridge. Turn stern to the enemy and fire engines to run? Fine, but that's now the engineering section that can take hits in addition to the fuel tank wings and the computer/turret/LR sensors up top.

Once a location is determined, then only those systems in that location can be damaged ... initially. After the initial damage is applied, anything left is applied as "excess damage" and this damage starts to walk along the ship. If you hit location 5, and get some excess damage, then that damage will hit either location 6 (incrementing the initial location) or location 4 (decrementing). So the locality of the hit matters.

Yes, I've already described this, although I think mine is more 'natural' in that the damage may go sideways into another exterior section, internal guts of the ship and through the other side, or just pass through tearing up hull plate and conduits on the way out.

For example, when you lay out the crews quarters in the ship, when you initially assign them to the ship that is, may well place them apart so that they're not right next to each other -- helping ensure that at least a single hit can take out a bunch of your crew quarters. By the same token, when a crew quarters takes a hit, you'll know which block of them are hit. Obviously you can't scatter you M-Drive like that, if that were big enough to occupy more than one section, you would divide it up among adjacent sections.

That's a big part of this thread after I run through a damage sequence. I'm finding myself thinking a lot of the ship deck plan designs are geared more towards shooter adventure and less about how 1000s of years of experience would translate into the most survivable ship designs.

A big part of this for instance is not only how you survive hits but how you fight the ship. A passenger ship for instance might be more inclined to have passenger safe zones in the interior to herd the customers to in the event of battle, and keep the ship orientation away from risking them to the last, influencing how they keep their ship orientation, decisions to roll or run, etc.

Also, the system is detailed enough (thanx to FF&S) that you could, for example, have armor on the ship, but also extra internal armor around, say, the power plant, and the damage would have to penetrate both the outer armor and the inner armor to damage the power plant.

I'm going into that in the full IMTU system, this is just a generic 'think location in deckplans and ship design and ship maneuver' gedanken experiment to catch mistakes on my part and to spark some thinking.

It's a pretty detailed system, you can pick and choose the bits you want. Hit location and internal allocation doesn't have anything to do with damage taken or how it's applied. So you can just lift the location/allocation parts, ignoring the entire combat and maneuver system.

Eh, I don't know that I am interested in learning a whole new other system, and I'm keeping it 2d6 old school. I will keep it in mind, is it in that T5 core system CD-ROM bundle?

 

[kilemall]

Eh, rethinking Flykiller's point re: facing hit probability and incorporating that in. I am inclined if i go forward with it to increase hit probability overall by +1.

IF meson gun hit-

1-2 Interior Bow
3-4 Interior Stern
5-6 Roll Surface Chart

Surface Chart
[FONT=arial,helvetica]Here is the main chart in question.

2- Critical Hit
3- Port Bow
4- Starboard Bow
5- Bow
6- Top Bow
7- Top Stern
8- Botton Stern
9- Bottom Bow
10- Stern
11- Port Stern
12- Starboard Stern

This would give a unique feel to craft, for instance our example scout ship has no Top or Bottom Bow and those would be misses at any angle. A needle small craft would only present Bow or Stern as a target when directly facing only those, not really large enough to have a top or bottom.

However it also shows the limits of the approach, as a stern shot would have more misses possible, even though it's exactly the same presented 2-D diamond shape area presented as the bow shot.
[/FONT]

 

[kilemall]

Alrighty, so lets lay out the hit sections.

Assumption is LBB2 Scout tonnage, fuel tanks laid out as much as possible as 4 conformal 10 ton tanks each. Obviously the percentage of specific engineering/drives would be different under HG or later systems.

Also assuming the computer and the half of the bridge involved in scout's long range detection capability is associated with the upper gallery.

Said upper gallery essentially a mission package swapout space, the long range sensor package that is standard could be swapped out for a lab space, auxiliary X-boat duty with comms and databanks, navigation/sensor buoy/satellite deployment duty, survey landing team support, etc.

Bow-
2-5 Avionics
7-11 Bridge
12 Reroll

Port Bow
2-3 Stateroom 1
4 Hallway
5-6 Stateroom 3
7-11 Fuel Tank 1
12 Reroll

Starboard Bow
2-3 Stateroom 2
4 Hallway
5-6 Stateroom 4
7-11 Fuel Tank 1
12 Reroll

Interior Bow
2-3 Fresher/Shower
4-5 Galley/Food Storage
6 Airlock Hallways
7-9 Comfy Seating/Table/Entertainment Center
10-12 Ships Locker

Interior Stern
2-5 Power Plant
6-12 Fuel Tank 2

Stern
2-11 Jump Drive
12 Maneuver Drive

Top Stern
2 Turret
3 Computer
4-12 Mission Gallery

Bottom Stern
2-3 Fuel Tank 2
4-6 Cargo Bay
7-10 Air/Raft Bay
11 Ramp/Access Tubes
12 Aft Airlock

Port Stern
2 Port Airlock
3-12 Fuel Tank 3

Starboard Stern
2 Starboard Airlock
3-12 Fuel Tank 4

 

[kilemall]

Hull damage- every 'ton' of damage that passes through and exits rather then is absorbed by specific systems or large storage areas like bays and fuel tanks, is applied to hull damage.

At every 10% a roll is made against this table. All results are ignored that are higher then the percentage of damage being checked against- so at 10% damage no roll can be successful, at 50% damage rolls 5 or less are applied, and 6 or above ignored, etc. Duplicates are ignored.

At 120% damage and above hull integrity can be compromised and the ship can break apart entirely.

This system reflects that ships are built with tremendous redundancy, to include multiple sensors, control/power conduits, etc. but that after taking punishment everything breaks. The intended effect is that very little breaks initially, but as the damage piles up the ship ultimately becomes uncontrollable or uninhabitable very quickly, or a critical system may go even though most of the hits have been passing through or hitting fuel/cargo etc.

This is in order of designed in criticality- feel free to alter it if your starship designers or navy have a different philosophy/doctrine.

This is not the final IMTU version, I have made it generic for the purposes of this demo.

2 Gravitics (have to slow down or prolonged G-effects take hold)
3 Active Sensors
4 Control Systems
5 Passive Sensors
6 Navigation Sensors (short range avoid ships/rocks RADAR/LIDAR/Optics)
7 Wireless Control Systems (normally offline, available at critical junctures but makes ship susceptible to hacking)
8 External Communications
9 Main Power Distribution
10 Emergency Power
11 Life Support
12 Hull Integrity

Severity is rolled 1-6 to determine difficulty in restoring the system.

 

[flykiller]

bingo. you don't want d100 at the table, it's fine for detail but then you have to account for that detail, and the players will fight for every last .01 they can get.

If I can't handle players, I don't deserve the ref title.

everyone has their gaming style. for some the players are participants. for others the players are passengers. I strongly prefer participants, and I avoid d100 at the table to keep control not of the players but of the game process.

2- Critical Hit
3- Port Bow
4- Starboard Bow
5- Bow
6- Top Bow
7- Top Stern
8- Botton Stern
9- Bottom Bow
10- Stern
11- Port Stern
12- Starboard Stern

for this application I prefer d6d6. this provides 36 possibility slots that can be assigned as appropriate, and if more are needed then d6d6d6 covers just about anything.

 

[kilemall]

everyone has their gaming style. for some the players are participants. for others the players are passengers. I strongly prefer participants, and I avoid d100 at the table to keep control not of the players but of the game process.



for this application I prefer d6d6. this provides 36 possibility slots that can be assigned as appropriate, and if more are needed then d6d6d6 covers just about anything.

OKey doke. I don't feel the need because I'm looking to make this play detailed but fast, I don't want a big single chart but more detailed hits that you can practically draw from the firing ship across and through the deck plan.

With the larger ships and weapons damage rates on the full system the 10% sections will remain proportional (for instance a full unhindered spinal meson gun strike might do 22,000 tons of damage, but due to range, targeting issues, etc. the hits will more likely be in the 3000 ton range).

I'm pretty close on the HG/CT merge, have to have gut checks on missile warheads, how far to go down the missile subgame rathole, how much I want armor vs. offense, etc. But good enough for a working run through this damage model.

 

[kilemall]

Ok, a few other items-

Damage Amounts and Missile Types- For purposes of this demonstration, beam lasers execute 2 tons of damage, pulse lasers 2 hits of 2 tons each in the same section, and missiles do damage as per their design in the missile supplement (typically 2 to 4 hits of 2 tons each, 10+ for nuclear) and are applied as per their warhead type, HE, DE, or APHE.

HE missiles detonate and roll separate damage location per hit, DE rolls one location and applies all hits starting at one location, and APHE are missiles designed to impact and add in their vee hits, otherwise as per DE.

Fuel tanks and cargo bays absorb each 2 ton hit in 10 ton increments, if the fuel/cargo bay is full the fuel is eliminated and the cargo heavily damaged, if empty the shot goes through and is rerolled for that section or the next one if the section is completely 'empty'.

Initial hull hits are determined as one ton per HG factor (for our CT phasing example, everything is at a factor of 1). Additional hull hits are applied as a large hit 'exits' the ship (passes through to open space) or as contained damage when bulkheads hold (not a factor in this example, big in HG fights).

If a turret, cargo or magazine area gets hit with missiles in it, the missiles may be detonated and cause 1 hit/2 tons of damage each (warheads are relatively safe, it's the missile fuel). In the full version of these rules, jump and weapons capacitors that are charged but unused yet may also detonate. Safety missiles may be used instead, but require combat fueling before use.

Nuclear missiles are treated as DE as they are powerful enough to not risk penetrator hits.

General Damage Resolution- after a successful to hit roll, the target sections that bear on the incoming weapon are noted and the initial section damage rolled. Sections that do not bear are ignored and rerolled. Meson Guns roll on the internal hit table first, possibly the general table if indicated.

The section hit is determined, the component/location for that section is rolled, and the tonnage hits are applied. Roll on 1d6 for the percentage of damage to the component, 10% per pip, if the target or below is rolled the component has dropped a value in performance, continue rolling drop in performance until the roll is failed or at zero it's inoperative.

Example- pulse laser hits stern compartment with engineering, LBB2 type A M-drive and J-drive 1 hit each.

First hit is applied against the M-drive, two tons against an M-drive it is inoperative.

Second hit is applied against the J-drive, two tons vs. 10 tons of jump. It is 20% damaged, a roll of 1 or 2 would neutralize it, a roll of 3 is made so it is still operative.

If both hits had gone against the J-drive, the 3 roll would have meant the J-drive went offline.

Each additional hit gets rolled against that initial section, until a component is hit again and already has 100% damage against it, then the hit goes through to the next section or open space. Section probability is determined by angle of ship, direction of incoming fire, and which sections are attached to the initial one in the line of fire (missiles largely ignore direction of incoming fire as a factor since they may have come in on an odd attack angle).

Hits are determined until the same 100% component damage is reached, and the next section/open space is rolled for.

If the hit goes to open space or is stopped by a bulkhead, the remainder is applied as hull hits.

 

[kilemall]

Radiation- radiation hits are a major element of PA, Meson and Nuclear Missile hits. They have the same 'tonnage' hits as conventional damage, are applied in the initial hit area of the first section component damaged, but afterwards follow on damage may be rolled successfully against other components in each section that differ from the 'physical' damage rolls.

Radiation is rolled after the entire set of physical damage is resolved, with X hits occurring in each section in direct proportion to the physical damage, initial hits are at the same location the initial section hit takes place, subsequent rolls per section are separate.

Radiation against components do as much damage as physical hits due to interference with electronics and control systems. Special hardening similar to the computer fib option may be applied to negate that risk, at similar levels of cost per component hardened.

Crew Damage- Crew and passengers take damage depending on whether they are in a compartment hit by a weapon.

Physical hits are 1d6 number of 1d6 dice damage, Radiation hits are 6D in normal clothes/unprotected bubbles, 3D in vacc suits, less for more hardened suits but with Dex/skill reduction applied due to less flexible movement.

Computer Hits- As per CT/IMTU rules, radiation affects non-fib computers, fantastic redundancy means direct physical hits occur and the computer may still operate.

 

[kilemall]

Final bit I can think of, the Engineering Bulkhead, that is definitely A Thing with LBB2 ships, so I am going to give that an armor 1 bulkhead setting as per the upcoming CT/HG rules, should give a taste of bulkhead and armor rules, and they should be defined anyway.

For the purposes of this exercise, means any hit that just goes through empty space (because the fuel/cargo or intervening equipment has already been destroyed on previous hits) is absorbed and doesn't go through the bulkhead, just becomes a hull hit, and multiple hits from a DE/APHE/Nuclear missile absorb one hit then go through the bulkhead in or out of the engineering space.