there is no need to...
Ship Registration
- Thread starter ravells
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there is no need to...
Nope. Look at the range of a hand held densitometer. You don't "find" anything. You take the reading and load results into the black box program. Not unlike a digital fingerprint reader/recorder. The inspector just needs to know how to operate the scanner/recorder.
I doubt the densiometer is accurate enough for that.
I guess the Ref has the choice as to how easy it is to get around the 'tagging' of a ship. If ship tagging is foolproof (or nearly foolproof), the universe becomes perhaps just that little bit more boring and gaming opportunities are lost. I really like the idea of an engineer covered in oil, working in a chop shop in some out of the way system being able to anonymise small stolen ships, it's a good trope.
I'd completely misunderstood the densometer thing, I hadn't realised that what one is talking about (in broader terms) is a machine which can read the entire ship's structure and by detecting anomalies inherent in it, effectively get a 'fingerprint' of the ship. Or to take it a step further, perhaps some sort of crystalline matter (like a snowflake where every one is different) is introduced to the superstructure fabric during the manufacture process. It's everywhere in the fabric like DNA. The inspector only needs a small scraping from any part of the superstructure to then identify the ship.
Changing that 'snowflake' field in the IRS database would require very high authority, which would get around the idea of ex-employees selling information etc. It's too foolproof though. Can anyone think of a way around it? The only think that comes to mind for me is hacking the database.
I'd completely misunderstood the densometer thing, I hadn't realised that what one is talking about (in broader terms) is a machine which can read the entire ship's structure and by detecting anomalies inherent in it, effectively get a 'fingerprint' of the ship. Or to take it a step further, perhaps some sort of crystalline matter (like a snowflake where every one is different) is introduced to the superstructure fabric during the manufacture process. It's everywhere in the fabric like DNA. The inspector only needs a small scraping from any part of the superstructure to then identify the ship.
Changing that 'snowflake' field in the IRS database would require very high authority, which would get around the idea of ex-employees selling information etc. It's too foolproof though. Can anyone think of a way around it? The only think that comes to mind for me is hacking the database.
DangerousThing
SOC-13
I would assume that the actual reader is a specialty densiometer (or whatever is actually used). Some would be software, and some would be hardware that might be specialized for the specific differences in hull density.
I would use embedded chips that were embedded in the hull, the power plant, the drives...
I can see the engineer/mechanic going over the hull/devices with a fine-toothed comb trying to locate the chips to change them.
I don't. Show your evidence.
Look, we can debate about high-tech measures and counter-measures all we want, but that's just the problem: it's all debatable. I mean, take the snowflake idea, what TL is that?
So how about this: You could say that for every TL, there is a measure and a countermeasure. In order to defeat the measure, you need a countermeasure from at least one TL higher than the one of the measure. What they actually are doesn't really matter; you can make something up, or just use jargon ("This gamma-level isometer will detect any attempt to circumvent the pulse-graviton emitters."). Then, you just have to decide what TLs you are using. You could decide that the measure's TL is that of the ship's TL by default, and better ones cost more. You could say that there are Imperium-wide (or whatever government you are using) standards, so only one TL is in use. You could even link it to insurance, with better rates for higher TL measures.
As an aside, I also like the starship chop-shop idea. :devil:
So how about this: You could say that for every TL, there is a measure and a countermeasure. In order to defeat the measure, you need a countermeasure from at least one TL higher than the one of the measure. What they actually are doesn't really matter; you can make something up, or just use jargon ("This gamma-level isometer will detect any attempt to circumvent the pulse-graviton emitters."). Then, you just have to decide what TLs you are using. You could decide that the measure's TL is that of the ship's TL by default, and better ones cost more. You could say that there are Imperium-wide (or whatever government you are using) standards, so only one TL is in use. You could even link it to insurance, with better rates for higher TL measures.
That's one way, but I've been watching enough Leverage to know that often the best way to defeat high-tech is to bypass it entirely and go for the weakest link in the security-chain: the people. Bribe the inspector. Or switch out his scanner for a rigged one ahead of time. Convince him that there is a good reason not to do the scan, like you are NI agents in deep cover who needed to commandeer a ship in order to stop terrorists threatening to blow up the starport (a properly prepared alias or two will help with this). Or if you're playing a fairly nasty character, kidnap his/her spouse and/or children, or at least convince him/her that you can harm them. Hit him with a dart of Fast drug (if no one else is watching), then convince him that he got drunk last night and woke up in an embarrassing situation (like with a hooker if he's married). IOW, there's plenty of ways around it, get creative. This itself can turn into an interesting game of measure-countermeasure between the players and the GM each time they make port. Have fun!
As an aside, I also like the starship chop-shop idea. :devil:
SpaceBadger
SOC-14 1K
Agreed.
I also agree with the prior comments that the balance between tagging and defeating the tagging is very much a GM's IMTU call, as it affects much of the flavor of the game. Sure, we can all try to think of foolproof means of defeating most crimes and controlling population at higher TLs, but is that really the game we want to play? Personal decision of GM and players.
DangerousThing
SOC-13
Also remember that the OTU is a huge conglomeration of different worlds with different TLs and different legal systems.
Putting something directly in the hull that is both easily identifiable and difficult to defeat is something that strikes me as a very high TL solution.
It's also a very high legal level of control and identification. Perhaps the "evil Imperium" of the early days might do this.
If I wanted the Imperium to do something like this, it would have to distribute the markers and the test devices because not all planets could build this.
On the other hand, please remember that the OTU has several time periods. Does it react the same way in all of them?
Start IMTU:
IMTU, I have several different pocket empires. And I'm sure that they do this sort of thing differently. The Confederation marks them with physical identification markers, like the VIN numbers. You can remove these numbers, but then you have an obviously removed place.
These numbers are there to be able to return stolen goods to their owner if they are recovered. They aren't checked by customs agents unless they have a reason to be suspicious of you. And the customs agent had better have a good reason, because each check costs time and it gets written up in both his log and the ship's log. If the agent has a reputation of doing a lot of checks but not finding anything, his chance of promotion is low. If there are complaints by ship's commanders of excessive checks, the agent may be in trouble.
On the other hand, if you're in the Kingdom of the Righteous and the Under-priest in charge of inspections decides you look suspicious, they can get away with almost anything. And of course, on paper, they probably will have found something. If you have the bad luck to draw an inspector who doesn't want to take a bribe, you get the charge of attempted bribery of a church official against you.
Different empires, different ways of life. The beings who make the Kingdom's naval ships mark the hulls, but for different reasons that humans would.
End IMTU.
Have a nice day.
Putting something directly in the hull that is both easily identifiable and difficult to defeat is something that strikes me as a very high TL solution.
It's also a very high legal level of control and identification. Perhaps the "evil Imperium" of the early days might do this.
If I wanted the Imperium to do something like this, it would have to distribute the markers and the test devices because not all planets could build this.
On the other hand, please remember that the OTU has several time periods. Does it react the same way in all of them?
Start IMTU:
IMTU, I have several different pocket empires. And I'm sure that they do this sort of thing differently. The Confederation marks them with physical identification markers, like the VIN numbers. You can remove these numbers, but then you have an obviously removed place.
These numbers are there to be able to return stolen goods to their owner if they are recovered. They aren't checked by customs agents unless they have a reason to be suspicious of you. And the customs agent had better have a good reason, because each check costs time and it gets written up in both his log and the ship's log. If the agent has a reputation of doing a lot of checks but not finding anything, his chance of promotion is low. If there are complaints by ship's commanders of excessive checks, the agent may be in trouble.
On the other hand, if you're in the Kingdom of the Righteous and the Under-priest in charge of inspections decides you look suspicious, they can get away with almost anything. And of course, on paper, they probably will have found something. If you have the bad luck to draw an inspector who doesn't want to take a bribe, you get the charge of attempted bribery of a church official against you.
Different empires, different ways of life. The beings who make the Kingdom's naval ships mark the hulls, but for different reasons that humans would.
End IMTU.
Have a nice day.
Simple - if it were adequate to that task (sufficiently small resolution), it would be near impossible to hijack a ship. It would also be near impossible to not be arested at a type A port for skipping. Neither of which is supported by rules.
I don't doubt it can get a decent map of the ship - I do doubt highly it's going to get you the specific isotopic signatures.
It's not, after all, a Star Trek tricorder.
From the Trader Size thread...
The unique signature (intentional impurities) of every hull is readable via enhanced NMR/NQR sub-surface spectroscopy.
This dates back to my earliest years playing (early '80s). The 'science' comes extrapolated circa the 50's to, IIRC, ~1981. (Less than 10 years later I actually was involved in various RW non-destructive testing projects using these technologies!)
Required registration markings and a subsurface registration id (analogy of watermark in currency) can be seen/scanned from a distance for normal checkups. They are also fairly easy to forge, though the later is a little more difficult (it can be accomplished without replacing marked sections of hull, but requires proper equipment and skill). The hull signature scan, however, requires an internal (proximity) inspection - as the exterior of hulls are generally the subject of much abuse (ablation, thermal, hard radiation radiation, missile detonations...).
Today, I might also consider: http://www.adnas.com/products/signature_dna_markers.
Myself said:
The unique signature (intentional impurities) of every hull is readable via enhanced NMR/NQR sub-surface spectroscopy.
This dates back to my earliest years playing (early '80s). The 'science' comes extrapolated circa the 50's to, IIRC, ~1981. (Less than 10 years later I actually was involved in various RW non-destructive testing projects using these technologies!)
Required registration markings and a subsurface registration id (analogy of watermark in currency) can be seen/scanned from a distance for normal checkups. They are also fairly easy to forge, though the later is a little more difficult (it can be accomplished without replacing marked sections of hull, but requires proper equipment and skill). The hull signature scan, however, requires an internal (proximity) inspection - as the exterior of hulls are generally the subject of much abuse (ablation, thermal, hard radiation radiation, missile detonations...)
.Today, I might also consider: http://www.adnas.com/products/signature_dna_markers.
What nobody seems to consider is the entire point behind registration.
The point behind registration is, 99% of the time, related to taxation.
The traders at the Starport don't care about the ship, they care about the goods.
The Immigration/Border Control officers don't care about the ship, they care about you -- the traveller.
Law Enforcement might care about the ship (since it might be stolen), and registration is a fine way to check that, but it's not the primary task.
The taxing authorities, they care. They want their fees paid.
I don't even know if ships will be taxed (much like cars are taxed today), since there's no real public infrastructure to support vs simply charging docking fees -- at which point the Starport really could care less about what the ship is, as long as the slip fee is paid up.
But maybe there's an Imperial tax on ships (not shipping) Because They Can.
However, consider, that currently, here on Earth, in the US, at least in California, Law Enforcement is not used to prosecute repossessions. They prosecute theft, which is different from an unpaid payment, and repossession is delegated to private companies.
Currently authorities run vehicle registration because they can, it's cheap. Do they check VINs? Only if you're getting cited. Do they check engine numbers? Chassis numbers? Almost never. It's inconvenient and almost never called for. If they're getting to that level, you're already in so much trouble it probably doesn't matter one way or the other how legit the matching of these numbers is.
The cheap stuff they'll do routinely, more invasive stuff is left to the CSI folks.
So, the standard transponder aka "starship license plate" fits the role pretty well without having to drag out densitometers and tri-corders.
The point behind registration is, 99% of the time, related to taxation.
The traders at the Starport don't care about the ship, they care about the goods.
The Immigration/Border Control officers don't care about the ship, they care about you -- the traveller.
Law Enforcement might care about the ship (since it might be stolen), and registration is a fine way to check that, but it's not the primary task.
The taxing authorities, they care. They want their fees paid.
I don't even know if ships will be taxed (much like cars are taxed today), since there's no real public infrastructure to support vs simply charging docking fees -- at which point the Starport really could care less about what the ship is, as long as the slip fee is paid up.
But maybe there's an Imperial tax on ships (not shipping) Because They Can.
However, consider, that currently, here on Earth, in the US, at least in California, Law Enforcement is not used to prosecute repossessions. They prosecute theft, which is different from an unpaid payment, and repossession is delegated to private companies.
Currently authorities run vehicle registration because they can, it's cheap. Do they check VINs? Only if you're getting cited. Do they check engine numbers? Chassis numbers? Almost never. It's inconvenient and almost never called for. If they're getting to that level, you're already in so much trouble it probably doesn't matter one way or the other how legit the matching of these numbers is.
The cheap stuff they'll do routinely, more invasive stuff is left to the CSI folks.
So, the standard transponder aka "starship license plate" fits the role pretty well without having to drag out densitometers and tri-corders.
Timerover51
SOC-14 5K
One problem with this discussion is that it assumes an Imperium standard for all ships for marking ships.
First, in the Spinward Marches, you have the possibility of having ships build in the Sword Worlds, by the Darrians, the Zhodani, the Aslan, and the Vargr. Are they going to conform to Imperium marking standards? I would suspect not. Are the Solomani going to conform to Imperium standards? I would imagine that would be a very loud and emphatic NO So, all of the sophisticated monitoring equipment becomes immediately useless.
Second, it does not allow for replacement of major items of equipment onboard the ships. A trader fries his jump drive with a misjump that puts him in an inhabited system, just not the one he wanted, but requires a replacement drive. How long does it take for a record of that replacement to get posted to am Imperium-wide data base? And how do you handle the replacement drive not matching the data base? Or the same circumstance, but the trader decides that he/she cannot afford a replacement drive, and to satisfy the mortgage holder and insurance company, dismantles the ship for replacement parts, which then go into other ships. Remember, this is not the equivalent of a starship "chop shop", but a straightforward use of existing hardware in new ships. Against, how long does that take to get into any data base?
It also fails to take into account two very possible ways of catching a skipped ship. The first is a Real World example that occurred in the mid-1980s. An Indonesian coastal tanker loaded with 1500 tons of refined petroleum products was pirated in the Indonesian Archipelago. The ship disappeared, crew was put off in small boats. Eighteen months later the ship was located in the harbor of Haiphong, Vietnam, under a Chinese flag, seized and turned over to the insurance company that covered the loss. It was located there because is had an engine breakdown and needed replacement parts, for with the engine company needed the engine serial number. The serial number was checked against the installation records, and the fact that the ship on which it was installed had disappeared immediately showed up. At that point, the engine manufacturer notified the insurer, and the insurer in turn had the Vietnamese authorities impound the ship.
The second way is quite simply that some member of the skipping crew decides that they want the reward for fingering the ship. Any bank or insurance company is going to have a standard percentage fee for information leading to the recovery of a skipped ship. Given the cost of the ship, that reward might be as much as 10% of the ship's value. A few million credits can buy a lot of informers. Given the size of the Imperium, the ability of an informant to collect his/her reward and then effectively vanish is basically limitless. The rest of the crew is hit with a charge of ship theft and does a nice long sentence in an planetary or Imperial prison.
First, in the Spinward Marches, you have the possibility of having ships build in the Sword Worlds, by the Darrians, the Zhodani, the Aslan, and the Vargr. Are they going to conform to Imperium marking standards? I would suspect not. Are the Solomani going to conform to Imperium standards? I would imagine that would be a very loud and emphatic NO So, all of the sophisticated monitoring equipment becomes immediately useless.
Second, it does not allow for replacement of major items of equipment onboard the ships. A trader fries his jump drive with a misjump that puts him in an inhabited system, just not the one he wanted, but requires a replacement drive. How long does it take for a record of that replacement to get posted to am Imperium-wide data base? And how do you handle the replacement drive not matching the data base? Or the same circumstance, but the trader decides that he/she cannot afford a replacement drive, and to satisfy the mortgage holder and insurance company, dismantles the ship for replacement parts, which then go into other ships. Remember, this is not the equivalent of a starship "chop shop", but a straightforward use of existing hardware in new ships. Against, how long does that take to get into any data base?
It also fails to take into account two very possible ways of catching a skipped ship. The first is a Real World example that occurred in the mid-1980s. An Indonesian coastal tanker loaded with 1500 tons of refined petroleum products was pirated in the Indonesian Archipelago. The ship disappeared, crew was put off in small boats. Eighteen months later the ship was located in the harbor of Haiphong, Vietnam, under a Chinese flag, seized and turned over to the insurance company that covered the loss. It was located there because is had an engine breakdown and needed replacement parts, for with the engine company needed the engine serial number. The serial number was checked against the installation records, and the fact that the ship on which it was installed had disappeared immediately showed up. At that point, the engine manufacturer notified the insurer, and the insurer in turn had the Vietnamese authorities impound the ship.
The second way is quite simply that some member of the skipping crew decides that they want the reward for fingering the ship. Any bank or insurance company is going to have a standard percentage fee for information leading to the recovery of a skipped ship. Given the cost of the ship, that reward might be as much as 10% of the ship's value. A few million credits can buy a lot of informers. Given the size of the Imperium, the ability of an informant to collect his/her reward and then effectively vanish is basically limitless. The rest of the crew is hit with a charge of ship theft and does a nice long sentence in an planetary or Imperial prison.
Good point about the tax angle, Watung, but I think in Traveller it might go deeper than that. We know that the prime obligation by the Imperium to its member planets is to encourage and protect inter-stellar trade. To do that assurances must be given to ship-owners (or insurers) that ships are safe from being stolen and given new identities.
Also the Register of Shipping would be useless if there was no reliable way of identifying a ship.
But I take your point on the taxation, although I've mentioned it as a subsidiary reason for the IRS rather than a primary one, it's probably an IMTU point.
Also the Register of Shipping would be useless if there was no reliable way of identifying a ship.
But I take your point on the taxation, although I've mentioned it as a subsidiary reason for the IRS rather than a primary one, it's probably an IMTU point.
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DangerousThing
SOC-13
I think you mean it isn't supported by the OTU. I doubt the rules say anything about hull-marking and the reading of said marks.
Maybe you can't with a hand-held model that characters buy at Sears, but perhaps a special model designed specifically to look for these intentional markers. If marking a ship is mandated by the Imperium then ships will be marked. And there will be machines that can read the markings.
I don't believe that the Imperium would mandate such things, and without such a mandate, I can't picture it being done. On the other hand, I do believe that there will be "serial numbers" put on every non-trivial item. In the real world, some individual CPU chips have a serial number encoded inside them for various reasons (and no matter what the company says, it isn't to help the customer of the chips...).
Frankly, I'm more the believer in stamped in serial numbers than some sort of difficult to read encoding. Though perhaps something like the RFID chips embedded in the hull or large devices. The reader sends the proper signal and the chip responds with an encrypted message; the chip being powered by the signal.
At least this is better than the argument that the bank puts a bomb in the ship that can only be deactivated by paying the loan payments.
Pretty much the ideas that drive my take on things, too.
In CT LBB rules there are no interstellar taxes mentioned - so there are none IMTUs. Its a core part of the concept behind an Imperium in my settings - unhindered free trade.
Further, to support itself and interstellar trade, the interstellar banks are Imperium chartered (though they are run by non-government officials). For this reason, the authorities are involved in repossessions and interstellar fraud (notably banking - which most would be as credits are Imperial...). [Akin to state vs federal jurisdictions in the U.S.]
The caveat - to actually verify the ship's identity (for repossession) requires an internal inspection. Such requires a warrant or proper cause based on a 'listing' (and external markings - which as mentioned above are easily faked for distance and less so at dock), or other legal or invited cause for entering a private vessel. Again, the principles of unhindered trade put a obstacle in the way of repossessing. (Where private agencies come in that must operate on the wrong side of the law or in very conniving ways to obtain evidence to allow for a warrant - despite being for the recovery of the banks who are chartered agencies of the government.)
[IMTU, defaults on payments require a period of 6 months or more before they are eligible for repossession (notice of must be provided in person - giving a further delay if not feasible). This provides for adequate time for relaying of payment data between far strung offices of the Imperium.]
They do, however, give the chances of a skip being noticed as such.
Fritz_Brown
Super Moderator
Except, only id10ts would not place them randomly...
But, even then, the shipyard knows where they are placed.
One thing to consider, related to "impurities" in the hull: ship buyers are going to insist on perfectly homogenous materials. Any inhomogeneity had better be to increase the structural integrity of the ship. Anything that can be put in as a signature is going to be somewhere it doesn't effect the integrity - which means it can be messed with.
Some good points made about the different polities - part of it will depend on the level of surveillance the society is comfortable with. England has a higher comfort level (in general) than many places in the US with being watched by the authorities. Germans allow speed radars/picture-takers on the side of the highway, lots of Americans would go nuts about that.
And, yeah, timerover, there's the issue of lag getting maintenance/repair info in the database. Though you have the ship's logs for interim info. Of course, if you can beat the "definitive" information back out of system.......
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