Ship Registration

[rancke]

They do, however, give the chances of a skip being noticed as such.

They also give skips a chance of succeeding. There was an early article about giving the bank a chance to catch skips. But obviously the more drastic anti-skip measures has to be ruled out, since they don't give skipping any chance of succeeding, which would, I submit, put a bit of a damper on the practice.


Hans

 

[Enoki]

What nobody seems to consider is the entire point behind registration.

The point behind registration is, 99% of the time, related to taxation.

The traders at the Starport don't care about the ship, they care about the goods.

The Immigration/Border Control officers don't care about the ship, they care about you -- the traveller.

Law Enforcement might care about the ship (since it might be stolen), and registration is a fine way to check that, but it's not the primary task.

The taxing authorities, they care. They want their fees paid.

I don't even know if ships will be taxed (much like cars are taxed today), since there's no real public infrastructure to support vs simply charging docking fees -- at which point the Starport really could care less about what the ship is, as long as the slip fee is paid up.

But maybe there's an Imperial tax on ships (not shipping) Because They Can.

However, consider, that currently, here on Earth, in the US, at least in California, Law Enforcement is not used to prosecute repossessions. They prosecute theft, which is different from an unpaid payment, and repossession is delegated to private companies.

Currently authorities run vehicle registration because they can, it's cheap. Do they check VINs? Only if you're getting cited. Do they check engine numbers? Chassis numbers? Almost never. It's inconvenient and almost never called for. If they're getting to that level, you're already in so much trouble it probably doesn't matter one way or the other how legit the matching of these numbers is.

The cheap stuff they'll do routinely, more invasive stuff is left to the CSI folks.

So, the standard transponder aka "starship license plate" fits the role pretty well without having to drag out densitometers and tri-corders.

This was one of the basies for my using a registration and log system. Authorities can verify the log and charge a fee. They can legally ground the ship for improper maintenance and extract fees and work for the locals to get it rectified.
It's portable, verifiable, and it goes with the ship. Not having one or one that is clearly badly messed up or a forgery again plays to local officials doing all sorts of nasty things up to and including confiscation of the ship for lack of proper logs or having a forgery. They could then do like law enforcement here does: auction it off for operating funds for their agency...
Better, they don't have to have alot of high tech expensive equipment to do this. Most or all of that is on the ship owner.....

 

[BytePro]

One thing to consider, related to "impurities" in the hull: ship buyers are going to insist on perfectly homogenous materials...

A signature in the fashion I related requiring detection of atomic level characteristics is not going to affect structural integrity of a hull.

Such things already exist and are detectable - its a matter of them being intentional and recorded.

 

[Carlobrand]

What nobody seems to consider is the entire point behind registration.

The point behind registration is, 99% of the time, related to taxation.

The traders at the Starport don't care about the ship, they care about the goods.

The Immigration/Border Control officers don't care about the ship, they care about you -- the traveller.

Law Enforcement might care about the ship (since it might be stolen), and registration is a fine way to check that, but it's not the primary task.

The taxing authorities, they care. They want their fees paid.

I don't even know if ships will be taxed (much like cars are taxed today), since there's no real public infrastructure to support vs simply charging docking fees -- at which point the Starport really could care less about what the ship is, as long as the slip fee is paid up.

But maybe there's an Imperial tax on ships (not shipping) Because They Can.
...

I don't recall an Imperial tax on ships being part of the monthly budget, but nothing stops anyone from introducing any tax they desire in their universe. Seems to me, though, that if the Imperium wanted to collect a tax, they wouldn't need a registration to accomplish it. They'd have an easier time collecting a small tax each time any ship docked at any respectable port, based on ship tonnage perhaps, rather than trying to keep track of each and every ship and owner. And, it would just be folded invisibly into the docking fees.

If there's a registration, it's because they want to collect that information for some reason - perhaps as part of their anti-piracy and anti-smuggling campaigns, perhaps to help reduce skipping and increase the confidence of lenders - and any tax or fee is primarily to offset the cost of collecting and maintaining that data.

 

[whartung]

This was one of the basies for my using a registration and log system. Authorities can verify the log and charge a fee. They can legally ground the ship for improper maintenance and extract fees and work for the locals to get it rectified.
It's portable, verifiable, and it goes with the ship. Not having one or one that is clearly badly messed up or a forgery again plays to local officials doing all sorts of nasty things up to and including confiscation of the ship for lack of proper logs or having a forgery. They could then do like law enforcement here does: auction it off for operating funds for their agency...
Better, they don't have to have alot of high tech expensive equipment to do this. Most or all of that is on the ship owner.....

Well that's the thing, right?

If you're going to steal a ship, what are you going to do with it? Sell it? To who? Who are you going to register it with? Or you'll scrap it -- then you have the black market of parts that exists, is routinely disrupted by law enforcement, and becomes a general headache for anyone involved.

Otherwise, you have a ship flying around unregistered. If you want to, you know, actually TRADE with that ship, you will, inevitably, encounter authorities to whom you need to confirm the registration -- and it won't be there. If you're not trading anywhere near the authority with jurisdiction, then it pretty much doesn't matter what mechanism you use to fingerprint the ship.

I had a truck stolen once. It was recovered a year later. I informed the police "that's great, but it's not my truck any more, it's the insurance companies." Frankly I was surprised it wasn't down in Mexico. Rather it was 20 miles away, most likely with an expired license plate. I don't know if it was abandoned or some one got pulled over, or what. But, eventually, the insurance company got their truck back -- in some condition.

Ships are only viable if they produce revenue (barring extreme edge cases). The only way to produce revenue is to work within the self reinforcing system. So, there only needs to be so much minimal work necessary to register the ship. There's no real practical need to go to extremes. The VIN on a vehicle, for example, can eventually be verified by the manufacturer if necessary.

What Traveller really needs is insurance.

 

[Enoki]

Well that's the thing, right?

If you're going to steal a ship, what are you going to do with it? Sell it? To who? Who are you going to register it with? Or you'll scrap it -- then you have the black market of parts that exists, is routinely disrupted by law enforcement, and becomes a general headache for anyone involved.

Otherwise, you have a ship flying around unregistered. If you want to, you know, actually TRADE with that ship, you will, inevitably, encounter authorities to whom you need to confirm the registration -- and it won't be there. If you're not trading anywhere near the authority with jurisdiction, then it pretty much doesn't matter what mechanism you use to fingerprint the ship.

I had a truck stolen once. It was recovered a year later. I informed the police "that's great, but it's not my truck any more, it's the insurance companies." Frankly I was surprised it wasn't down in Mexico. Rather it was 20 miles away, most likely with an expired license plate. I don't know if it was abandoned or some one got pulled over, or what. But, eventually, the insurance company got their truck back -- in some condition.

Ships are only viable if they produce revenue (barring extreme edge cases). The only way to produce revenue is to work within the self reinforcing system. So, there only needs to be so much minimal work necessary to register the ship. There's no real practical need to go to extremes. The VIN on a vehicle, for example, can eventually be verified by the manufacturer if necessary.

What Traveller really needs is insurance.

The neat thing would be if there was insurance (which one could easily add to the game) then a ship's captain might just load up with a valuable cargo, then sell all or part of it off after which he wrecks / loses the ship in some way that the authorities take as true and just gets the insurance for the loss making a very tidy profit....
Ship's captains did and do that from time to time even today.

 

[Dragoner]

Ship's captains did and do that from time to time even today.

It is the basis of B Traven's The Death Ship, a worthy read.

 

[Hyphen]

It's not, after all, a Star Trek tricorder.

As in, "magic happens here"??

My problem with all of this is the number of false positives you'd introduce would cancel out the supposed "benefits".I mean, what happens when ship change? Internal rooms get rearranged, j-drive gets upgraded, etc: alarms go off because the ship doesn't match specs? Part of the hull gets blown off and replaced: oops, alarms go off at the next 'port? Or hull plates get taken from a wreck and moved to another ship: alarms go off because your implanted tags don't match the rest of the ship??

And don't even get me started on the system required to link every frelling 'port together so all the updstes get to everyone, correctly and on time. We can't even do that with our cars.

I thunk it's reasonable to assume some Vilani nimrod tried this at one time. However, his colleagues lynched him after the third minor race - with all their non-standard and untagged ships - was assimilated into the big bad Vilani empire... "killed by the paperwork" would have to be an old Vilani curse.

 

[Murdoc]

As in, "magic happens here"??

My problem with all of this is the number of false positives you'd introduce would cancel out the supposed "benefits".I mean, what happens when ship change? Internal rooms get rearranged, j-drive gets upgraded, etc: alarms go off because the ship doesn't match specs? Part of the hull gets blown off and replaced: oops, alarms go off at the next 'port? Or hull plates get taken from a wreck and moved to another ship: alarms go off because your implanted tags don't match the rest of the ship??

Great. 3000 years in the future and they're still using Windows Genuine Advantage.

 

[ravells]

Trivial point ... and I only mention it because I've been dealing with documentation in my day job, so all of a sudden I'm noticing such things ... but shouldn't the copyright date on the front say 2013?

Thanks Hemdian, I took the wording direct from the FFE guidelines which are posted here

The guidelines were probably written in 2008 hence the date but I don't want to assume. I'll drop Marc a line to get clarification - thanks Hemdian!

best

Ravi.

 

[HG_B]

But, even then, the shipyard knows where they are placed.

The ship yard doesn't record the info. They have no use for it. It is the gov that records the data.

 

[HG_B]

Simple - if it were adequate to that task (sufficiently small resolution), it would be near impossible to hijack a ship. ...
It's not, after all, a Star Trek tricorder.

Fail. Let me know when you have an actual answer to my question.

 

[rancke]

Fail. Let me know when you have an actual answer to my question.

He did. In his opinion, several canonical aspects of the setting would be impossible if ships were too easily identified. You can disagree with his reasoning, but he did answer your question.

Personally, I think a thorough forensic examination of a ship will be able to identify it. However, such an examination would (still IMO) be costly and take time, so it would only be engaged in if there were grounds for suspicion in the first place, not as a routine measure.

As for evidence, there are several mentions of fake transponders in CT material (one reason why I consider the information about the DEYO chip to be faulty). Obviously a fake transponder has to have a decent chance of fooling to authorities. What would be the point of getting one, if any time someone waved a densitometer at the ship and did a routine check on the results, any ship with a fake transponder would automatically be detected?


Hans

 

[CosmicGamer]

Let me know when you have an actual answer to my question.

I've looked back several pages in the posts and can't find it. What is the question?

Even without knowing the question, I have a comment Re:

Obviously a fake transponder has to have a decent chance of fooling to authorities. What would be the point of getting one, if any time someone waved a densitometer at the ship and did a routine check on the results, any ship with a fake transponder would automatically be detected?

The point might be to fool authorities or automated system checking transponder signals? People might not have the time for a closer inspection of every ship with the special densitometer.

 

[rancke]

I've looked back several pages in the posts and can't find it. What is the question?

It's in post #25.


Hans

 

[CosmicGamer]

It's in post #25.

This?

Show your evidence.

Didn't sound like a question to me.

As far as evidence, I don't know if there is anything definitive enough for either side of the discussion.

 

[CosmicGamer]

Obviously a fake transponder has to have a decent chance of fooling to authorities. What would be the point of getting one, if any time someone waved a densitometer at the ship and did a routine check on the results, any ship with a fake transponder would automatically be detected?

The point might be to fool authorities or automated system checking transponder signals? People might not have the time for a closer inspection of every ship with the special densitometer.

Being silly:
Inspection group with densitometer "Let me see your ships identification papers."
Crew member raises their hand and waggles their fingers "You don't need to see the identification papers."
Storm trooper: "We don't need to see the identification papers."
Crew member "We're not the ship your looking for."
Inspector "This isn't the ship we're looking for."

 

[Enoki]

The ship yard doesn't record the info. They have no use for it. It is the gov that records the data.

So, a few questions here:

1. Does the yard install these markings or does the government?

2. How does a local government agency find the marking without doing a long an possilbly arduous, not to mention expensive, sweep of a vessel? Are they in a "standard" location known to most government officials? Are they randomly placed?

3. How common is the equipment used to find them?

4. How often could a ship's captain be subjected to such a sweep? Would it be virtually every port? Randomly? Only when the local officials suspect something?

5. How does the government handle different hull configurations?

6. If the ship is not originally Imperial or built by someone using this system then?

 

[rancke]

This?Didn't sound like a question to me.

It's the post that Aramis answered with a post that HG_B claimed didn't answer his question. If you want further elucidation, you can track the debate back by clicking on those small blue boxes with the '>' in them.

As far as evidence, I don't know if there is anything definitive enough for either side of the discussion.

Aramis wasn't trying to prove anything. He was providing support for an opinion.


Hans

 

[McPerth]

One problem with this discussion is that it assumes an Imperium standard for all ships for marking ships.

First, in the Spinward Marches, you have the possibility of having ships build in the Sword Worlds, by the Darrians, the Zhodani, the Aslan, and the Vargr. Are they going to conform to Imperium marking standards? I would suspect not. Are the Solomani going to conform to Imperium standards? I would imagine that would be a very loud and emphatic NO So, all of the sophisticated monitoring equipment becomes immediately useless.

I agree in the principle that non-Imperial ships will probably not have the same trasponder class than Imperial ones, but they will probably have some kind of transponder/identification signal, and they will be accepted with it (and recognized as foreign).

I see the trasponders as the registration tags of today's cars, and so probably each political starfaring entity will have its own, but the don't turn it off when crossing the border, nor need to change them (if they don't mind to be recognized as foreign), just as cars don't change their tags if they cross a border.

Second, it does not allow for replacement of major items of equipment onboard the ships. A trader fries his jump drive with a misjump that puts him in an inhabited system, just not the one he wanted, but requires a replacement drive. How long does it take for a record of that replacement to get posted to am Imperium-wide data base? And how do you handle the replacement drive not matching the data base? Or the same circumstance, but the trader decides that he/she cannot afford a replacement drive, and to satisfy the mortgage holder and insurance company, dismantles the ship for replacement parts, which then go into other ships. Remember, this is not the equivalent of a starship "chop shop", but a straightforward use of existing hardware in new ships. Against, how long does that take to get into any data base?

I've always assumed that Imperium works on the basis of standarization (most so with IDP ships), so that a ship built in the Marches could find spare parts in the Solomani Rim, as long as it's standard. Any shipyard performing maintenance to Type A free traders will have its spare parts more or less handy, and same with other standard designs.

For customized or foreign design ships, those same spare parts would probably have to be custoum built or asked for to the building yards (more often than not, this would take more time and be more expensive than custoum building them), hence the importance of standard ship designs.

More or less that's what happens to you if your imported car deos need spare parts, and sometimes they are not handy in your own town (more so if it's not a common car there) and you must wait for it to be shipped. of course, the travel and communications time in Traveller is longer than in earth, so the waiting time for the pieces will also be.