Simplified Radar Question

[rgrove0172]

My las post got pretty convoluted, let me try a simpler approach.

On page 64 of the Director's Guide (classic 2300) it gives Navigational Radar a range of 1 AU.

On page 144 of the Traveller Core Rules it gives Active Radar a range of 50,000km.

Thats a big difference.

Page 204 of the MT2300 Rules says to use the sensors in the Traveller rulebook.

Do I gather then that the 1AU radar is no longer 2300 tech? Or, do we extend the table on page 144 out to 1AU with anything detected being only a very fient and basic return (a blip in otherwords) and let the table work for the closer ranges?

And just to complicate things, Page 204 of MT2300 also says that all civilian sensors as listed on page 144 (CT) on the table have a range of 0 in starship combat. Range 0 can extend out to 300,000km.

So just where should commercial radar fall?


Then - can anyone explain just what the Military Sensors are in 2300, especially now if we reduce radar to a 50,000km max. They operate out to 7 or more light seconds (2,100,000km) out to half that when Passive.

And last, just to really screw with my head... Page 269 of MT2300 claims that informational scans should use the details on the sensor table page 144 of CT but increase ALL RANGES TO THE 2300 RANGE BANDS!

Is that right? All sensory equipment in 2300 is considered hundreds of times more powerful than regular traveller? Radar now can reach out to not 1 AU as in classic 2300 but 3AU as per the traveller chart when you make the changes. Or if this reference to informational scans applies only to the military sensors, since the reference is in the starship combat section, just what information are they talking about? They dont elaborate, so it has to refer to the whole chart, all the sensors, doesnt it?

This seems a big mess, can anyone help me out?

 

[shaunhilburn]

My las post got pretty convoluted, let me try a simpler approach.

On page 64 of the Director's Guide (classic 2300) it gives Navigational Radar a range of 1 AU.

On page 144 of the Traveller Core Rules it gives Active Radar a range of 50,000km.

Thats a big difference.

Page 204 of the MT2300 Rules says to use the sensors in the Traveller rulebook.

Do I gather then that the 1AU radar is no longer 2300 tech? Or, do we extend the table on page 144 out to 1AU with anything detected being only a very fient and basic return (a blip in otherwords) and let the table work for the closer ranges?

And just to complicate things, Page 204 of MT2300 also says that all civilian sensors as listed on page 144 (CT) on the table have a range of 0 in starship combat. Range 0 can extend out to 300,000km.

So just where should commercial radar fall?


Then - can anyone explain just what the Military Sensors are in 2300, especially now if we reduce radar to a 50,000km max. They operate out to 7 or more light seconds (2,100,000km) out to half that when Passive.

And last, just to really screw with my head... Page 269 of MT2300 claims that informational scans should use the details on the sensor table page 144 of CT but increase ALL RANGES TO THE 2300 RANGE BANDS!

Is that right? All sensory equipment in 2300 is considered hundreds of times more powerful than regular traveller? Radar now can reach out to not 1 AU as in classic 2300 but 3AU as per the traveller chart when you make the changes. Or if this reference to informational scans applies only to the military sensors, since the reference is in the starship combat section, just what information are they talking about? They dont elaborate, so it has to refer to the whole chart, all the sensors, doesnt it?

This seems a big mess, can anyone help me out?

Years ago I came across a book titled "Radar Principles for the Non-Specialist"; being a radar specialist a the time, I bought it anyway despite the title. You can find used copies online for around 25 USD.

It's a technical book for engineers in non-radar disciplines and not really for the layman, but I recommend it anyway. It's informative and insightful for the RPG referee, and contains everything the layman could ever possibly want to know about radar, esp. "radar rules of thumb", "loose ends of radar lore", and exercises at the end of the chapters with answers in the appendices.

Sorry to digress, I know this doesn't help you with reconciling Mongoose with GDW. I'm familiar with GDW's versions, but I don't know anything about at all about MT2300. Maybe I can help with general radar inquiries outside the context of game mechanics.

 

[rgrove0172]

Id love to discuss some color and fluff surrounding radar technology in 2300 but I really need to find out how the dang game works first.

Im really stuck on the simple task of determining just what range to use. It appears that all the range bands for traveller have been increased dramatically for 2300 purposes, and if its that simple, ok... but what it does to some of the sensors is a little dramatic. Id like to know for sure.

The whole rules section seems full of holes. For example - on page 205 of MT2300 it mentions the various sensor upgrades effect on detection of ships. Yet on page 269, the combat section, there is nothing regarding detection at all, only the requirement of sensors to lock on in order to fire weaponry. None of the upgrades modifiers are listed here to its pretty clear, and validated by the phrase - "While a starship is easy enough to see, thanks to heat and grav signature, it is not as easy to pinpoint sufficiently to allow accurate weapons fire" - that detection is not part of combat... but then where is it? It doesnt seem to be mentioned at all in either rulebook.

 

[Timerover51]

While I do not have the Traveller 2300 rules, I do some about radar. First, Norm Friedman has a good book on Naval Radar that gives a good explanation to a layman on how radar works and what some of the limitations are.

A navigation radar with a range of 1 AU is going to have to be one very powerful set with a BIG antenna to get reasonable return and resolution ability. An AU is 499 light-seconds, or 8 minutes 19 seconds, so any return pulse is going to be pretty weak and arrive 16 minutes 38 seconds if at maximum range, which means sorting out anything that far away or farther from much closer returns is going to be a hugh headache. Your radar return is going to be on the inverse 4th power, or a strength drop of 16 for every doubling of distance, not counting also beam dispersion due to distance. Basically, for navigational radar, you want something that has a range of 30 to 60 times the typical speed of your ship in miles per second. That gives you sufficient time to react to anything in front of you or near the front. Ideally, you should have wide detection beam and then a much more focused tracking beam for any detected object to give you the best possible data.

 

[rgrove0172]

Thanks, I do appreciate your input.

Surely somebody on the forum here is familiar with the MT2300 book and the conversion of the rules?

 

[McPerth]

One thing to take into account with so long range radars is that they give you the position the other ship had some minutes ago, (when the signal was reflected, so giving you few tactical imput.

IMHO, the radar (as the gravitonic sensors as told in LW/TBM) are just for rough detection at long distances (though radars would need to go active for that, so, again IMHO, rarely used), and then you ressort to other sensors (IR, telescopic, anything you have) to better identify and pinpint the contact.

In any case, until they reach tactical distances, most information you'll obtain is too old to have any tactical value, so I guess there will be much maneovering to keep/close distancesaccording what you have detected, and much guessing/counterguessing in this phase of the encounter.

PS: every time I read simplified in any such threads, I begin to thremble :devil:

 

[rgrove0172]

"PS: every time I read simplified in any such threads, I begin to thremble"

Yes, I suppose in hind sight that was a baseless remark.

 

[Darkwing]

Simple: Nav radar is able to return from up to AU, because navigation includes avoiding planetoids, comets, etc. This gives a heads up for things to avoid. Fire control radar only gives useful data for shooting within 50,000 km.

 

[rgrove0172]

Simple: Nav radar is able to return from up to AU, because navigation includes avoiding planetoids, comets, etc. This gives a heads up for things to avoid. Fire control radar only gives useful data for shooting within 50,000 km.

But the MT2300 book says to change the range bands which makes radar effective out to several light seconds. Not to mention Military Sensors, which by the rules includes radar, work out to several range bands in combat as well, also, several light seconds each.

 

[Darkwing]

But the MT2300 book says to change the range bands which makes radar effective out to several light seconds. Not to mention Military Sensors, which by the rules includes radar, work out to several range bands in combat as well, also, several light seconds each.

Sure, for SHIP-SIZED objects. The reference to 1 AU allows for radar return off of planets and large asteroids or asteroid belts, where the large size and the simple, unvarying (no accel or decel) motion make it easier to detect and plot.

So I can't detect your ship past half a light minute, but I can tell how far Jupiter is from me.

 

[rgrove0172]

same sensors are used in combat, which is one light second per range band, out to about 16 total in combat range I believe.