Skill Damage

[Supplement Four]

Speaking with one of my players yesterday, he hit me with a quandry--something that Traveller doesn't model very well.

Let's say Mike Tyson, at the top of his game, got into a fist fight with a normal joe. Of course Mike would hit--he's got Boxing-5. That's a whopping +5 to his attack throw.

Hitting is not the problem. It's the damage.

"Hands" do 1D damage. That's it. No matter who is doing the hitting.

In my game, I've re-arranged the DMs a bit to account, somewhat, for STR and such.

In my game, "Hands" do 1D with these DMs--

-DM ... For Armor (AV from Striker).
+/-DM ... CT Armor modifier
+/- DM ... STR DM
-DM ... if Weak Blow

OK, let's say Mike Tyson's got STR-15. He socks a normal joe defender and hits.

His damage under normal Traveller rules is 1D.

His damage under my house rule is: 1D +2

Under my house rule, Mike gets +1 for STR 9+ and +1 for target's armor of "nothing".

My question is: Does this do a good job of modeling what Mike Tyson could do to an average, everyday joe?

AND! The guy next door, who takes care of himself, eats right, works out, with the STR 9, WOULD DO THE SAME DAMAGE AS MIKE TYSON!!!

Obviously, neither Traveller nor my house rule are doing a good job of modeling this type of situation.

 

[Supplement Four]

Speaking with one of my players yesterday, he hit me with a quandry--something that Traveller doesn't model very well.

Let's say Mike Tyson, at the top of his game, got into a fist fight with a normal joe. Of course Mike would hit--he's got Boxing-5. That's a whopping +5 to his attack throw.

Hitting is not the problem. It's the damage.

"Hands" do 1D damage. That's it. No matter who is doing the hitting.

In my game, I've re-arranged the DMs a bit to account, somewhat, for STR and such.

In my game, "Hands" do 1D with these DMs--

-DM ... For Armor (AV from Striker).
+/-DM ... CT Armor modifier
+/- DM ... STR DM
-DM ... if Weak Blow

OK, let's say Mike Tyson's got STR-15. He socks a normal joe defender and hits.

His damage under normal Traveller rules is 1D.

His damage under my house rule is: 1D +2

Under my house rule, Mike gets +1 for STR 9+ and +1 for target's armor of "nothing".

My question is: Does this do a good job of modeling what Mike Tyson could do to an average, everyday joe?

AND! The guy next door, who takes care of himself, eats right, works out, with the STR 9, WOULD DO THE SAME DAMAGE AS MIKE TYSON!!!

Obviously, neither Traveller nor my house rule are doing a good job of modeling this type of situation.

 

[Supplement Four]

So...

I have a thought--something I thought I'd throw out here for discussion.

Let's see what you think.

============================


What if we tied Skill level in, somehow, with damage?

What I'm thinking is this...

Throw a separate die with damage. It's an extra die--probably a different color (or size...or has numbers on it instead of dots). This will be the skill damage die.

If the number thrown on that die is equal to or less than the character's skill level, then that die is considered extra damage.

For example--

Mike Tyson has Boxing-5. When he throws damage, he'll throw 2D (1D is the usual damage due to "hands" and the other 1D is the skill damage die).

If the skill damage die is 5 or less, that damage is added to Mike's total damage. A roll of 6 on that die means that only the normal damage die is considered.

This way, the guy next door, who takes care of himself, with the STR 9, won't do the same damage as Mike all the time. He's got Brawling-1. So, he'll only get one single extra point of damage, only some of the time, when he rolls a 1 on the skill die. Other wise, he's doing a lot less damage than Mike is.

Mike would max out at 11 points of damage (6 on the normal damage die, and 5 on the skill die).

The guy next door would max out at 7 damage points (6 on the normal damage die, and 1 on the skill die).

And, Mike would throw extra damage much more often.

Thoughts on this?

 

[Supplement Four]

So...

I have a thought--something I thought I'd throw out here for discussion.

Let's see what you think.

============================


What if we tied Skill level in, somehow, with damage?

What I'm thinking is this...

Throw a separate die with damage. It's an extra die--probably a different color (or size...or has numbers on it instead of dots). This will be the skill damage die.

If the number thrown on that die is equal to or less than the character's skill level, then that die is considered extra damage.

For example--

Mike Tyson has Boxing-5. When he throws damage, he'll throw 2D (1D is the usual damage due to "hands" and the other 1D is the skill damage die).

If the skill damage die is 5 or less, that damage is added to Mike's total damage. A roll of 6 on that die means that only the normal damage die is considered.

This way, the guy next door, who takes care of himself, with the STR 9, won't do the same damage as Mike all the time. He's got Brawling-1. So, he'll only get one single extra point of damage, only some of the time, when he rolls a 1 on the skill die. Other wise, he's doing a lot less damage than Mike is.

Mike would max out at 11 points of damage (6 on the normal damage die, and 5 on the skill die).

The guy next door would max out at 7 damage points (6 on the normal damage die, and 1 on the skill die).

And, Mike would throw extra damage much more often.

Thoughts on this?

 

[Supplement Four]

BTW, I don't see a problem with using this in Gun Combat either--better skilled characters typically hit more damaging locations.

 

[Supplement Four]

BTW, I don't see a problem with using this in Gun Combat either--better skilled characters typically hit more damaging locations.

 

[far-trader]

I'd have to disagree. The real world doesn't actually show better skilled marksmen hitting more often let alone more damaging locations. At least not in the typical armed encounter with an unskilled opponent.

Same probably goes for a regular street fight. Joe Average likely has a good chance of dealing as much damage as Boxing Star when there's no squared ring and referee to enforce rules. Joe Average rings Boxing Star's family jewels and he's down for the count before he finishes his fancy footwork while keeping up his guard and looking for an opening.

The only place I'd allow a bonus to damage is in a contest, like boxing or dueling, where each participant is actively looking to land the best shot. I'd never see it happening in the usual heat of battle when each opponent is just hoping to land any shot, as long as it's the first one since that will usually end it.

 

[far-trader]

I'd have to disagree. The real world doesn't actually show better skilled marksmen hitting more often let alone more damaging locations. At least not in the typical armed encounter with an unskilled opponent.

Same probably goes for a regular street fight. Joe Average likely has a good chance of dealing as much damage as Boxing Star when there's no squared ring and referee to enforce rules. Joe Average rings Boxing Star's family jewels and he's down for the count before he finishes his fancy footwork while keeping up his guard and looking for an opening.

The only place I'd allow a bonus to damage is in a contest, like boxing or dueling, where each participant is actively looking to land the best shot. I'd never see it happening in the usual heat of battle when each opponent is just hoping to land any shot, as long as it's the first one since that will usually end it.

 

[Supplement Four]

Also...

I have a house rule that I use for random damage dice. THIS rule may better than adding in a skill damage die. Or, it could be used in conjuntion with the skill damage die.

It works like this--

I don't use the First Blood rule in CT. It's too deadly (where all damage from the first hit is taken from one randomly rolled stat). Using this, while maybe more realistic, turns the game into a first-hit, first-kill type of game. I like to run action in my games, so I've adjusted this rule--while still keeping the game very deadly.

==================

An 8+ is needed to hit.

For every two points rolled over that target number, one damage die is applied randomly to the target.

So, if a total of 11 is rolled to hit on a target, then 1 die from the damage is applied randomly.

If a 12 is rolled on the to-hit throw, then two of the damage dice are applied randomly.

Note that this rule does not add more damage dice to the damage--it only decides which of the damage dice from the weapon is applied randomly.

If Mike Tyson rolls 18 on his to-hit throw, that would indicate 5 damage random damage dice. But, since Mike is using his hands, and "hands" do only 1D of damage, then only that 1D is applied randomly.

If the guy next door takes out his shotgun and shoots Mike, doing 4D damage, and the guy rolled 11 on his to-hit throw, then 2D of damage are applied randomly to Mike while the other 2D are applied to Mike's stats as Mike's player sees fit.

--------------

Note that a strong argument can be made that Mike will do more random damage more often because his skill level is so high (he'll roll 10+, 12+, 14+, etc more often with that Boxing-5 skill and there for do worse damage because his damage will be random).

Given that, then maybe the skill damage die is not needed.

Just thinking here.

 

[Supplement Four]

Also...

I have a house rule that I use for random damage dice. THIS rule may better than adding in a skill damage die. Or, it could be used in conjuntion with the skill damage die.

It works like this--

I don't use the First Blood rule in CT. It's too deadly (where all damage from the first hit is taken from one randomly rolled stat). Using this, while maybe more realistic, turns the game into a first-hit, first-kill type of game. I like to run action in my games, so I've adjusted this rule--while still keeping the game very deadly.

==================

An 8+ is needed to hit.

For every two points rolled over that target number, one damage die is applied randomly to the target.

So, if a total of 11 is rolled to hit on a target, then 1 die from the damage is applied randomly.

If a 12 is rolled on the to-hit throw, then two of the damage dice are applied randomly.

Note that this rule does not add more damage dice to the damage--it only decides which of the damage dice from the weapon is applied randomly.

If Mike Tyson rolls 18 on his to-hit throw, that would indicate 5 damage random damage dice. But, since Mike is using his hands, and "hands" do only 1D of damage, then only that 1D is applied randomly.

If the guy next door takes out his shotgun and shoots Mike, doing 4D damage, and the guy rolled 11 on his to-hit throw, then 2D of damage are applied randomly to Mike while the other 2D are applied to Mike's stats as Mike's player sees fit.

--------------

Note that a strong argument can be made that Mike will do more random damage more often because his skill level is so high (he'll roll 10+, 12+, 14+, etc more often with that Boxing-5 skill and there for do worse damage because his damage will be random).

Given that, then maybe the skill damage die is not needed.

Just thinking here.

 

[far-trader]

Originally posted by WJP:
...I don't use the First Blood rule in CT. It's too deadly (where all damage from the first hit is taken from one randomly rolled stat). Using this, while maybe more realistic, turns the game into a first-hit, first-kill type of game. I like to run action in my games, so I've adjusted this rule--while still keeping the game very deadly.

Now you've totally lost me here

You find the First Blood rule too deadly (despite it probably being quite realistic we agree) because you don't want a first-hit, first-kill game.

Yet you are looking to work it so players (generally the ones who are going to have the higher skill levels no doubt) have a better chance of dealing crippling damage vs average npc's.

Maybe it's just my perception, and it's totally cool for YTU (the game has to be fun for you and your players, that is the only goal that counts), but it seems more like you're looking to justify elevating player characters above npc's. Again that's fine, it's just not what Traveller seems to be about. At least to me.

 

[far-trader]

Originally posted by WJP:
...I don't use the First Blood rule in CT. It's too deadly (where all damage from the first hit is taken from one randomly rolled stat). Using this, while maybe more realistic, turns the game into a first-hit, first-kill type of game. I like to run action in my games, so I've adjusted this rule--while still keeping the game very deadly.

Now you've totally lost me here

You find the First Blood rule too deadly (despite it probably being quite realistic we agree) because you don't want a first-hit, first-kill game.

Yet you are looking to work it so players (generally the ones who are going to have the higher skill levels no doubt) have a better chance of dealing crippling damage vs average npc's.

Maybe it's just my perception, and it's totally cool for YTU (the game has to be fun for you and your players, that is the only goal that counts), but it seems more like you're looking to justify elevating player characters above npc's. Again that's fine, it's just not what Traveller seems to be about. At least to me.

 

[Supplement Four]

I roll up NPCs in my game the same way I roll up PCs. So, the PCs don't tend to be "better" than NPCs. Many times they're out-right disadvantaged.

I was just trying to come up with a good answer for my player. I know damn well if me and Mike Tyson met on a street corner and squared off, even if I got the first hit in, the guy would clobber me. Hell, I might not even be able to take punch number one.

I was trying to reconcile that within the game rules--skewing the rules to where stronger characters with better skill can and will clobber weaker characters in brawling combat.

 

[Supplement Four]

I roll up NPCs in my game the same way I roll up PCs. So, the PCs don't tend to be "better" than NPCs. Many times they're out-right disadvantaged.

I was just trying to come up with a good answer for my player. I know damn well if me and Mike Tyson met on a street corner and squared off, even if I got the first hit in, the guy would clobber me. Hell, I might not even be able to take punch number one.

I was trying to reconcile that within the game rules--skewing the rules to where stronger characters with better skill can and will clobber weaker characters in brawling combat.

 

[far-trader]

That's cool. CT is probably too chunky to model that fine a distinction well. That 1D covers a wide range of damage. Adding a DM or two for advantageous or detrimental strength is within the spirit and granularity.

Changing the dynamic of the to hit roll by adding more damage for skill goes too far in my opinion. The to hit roll is combination of landing a blow and the actual quality of the blow, by the probability of more damage over the course for the higher skilled opponent.

The farthest I'd go is similar to your armor adjustments. I came up with unarmed weapon "types" for brawling (similar to the example of a bottle being a club for one hit and then a dagger -1 after that) each with it's own (very similar) weapon and range matrix table. Boxing (and therefore Boxer's) could be modelled in the same way. Not sure why I didn't do Boxing actually, just more into Eastern stuff at the time I guess. Anyway it's easy enough so a quick jab at it...

Boxing - Any character with Brawling 3+ can be considered to have mastered a single style of unarmed combat, in this case that of Pugilism. When such a character fights unarmed with just their hands they use the following matrix instead of the standard one:
</font><blockquote>code:</font><hr /><pre style="font-size:x-small; font-family: monospace;">Defender's Armor:
Nothing Jack Mesh Cloth Reflec Ablat Cbt Armor
+2 +1 -1 -1 +1 0 -6

Range Matrix:

Close Short Medium+ Wound Inflicted
+1 +2 no 1D*</pre>[/QUOTE]* If wearing approved gloves the wound is stunning damage only.

 

[far-trader]

That's cool. CT is probably too chunky to model that fine a distinction well. That 1D covers a wide range of damage. Adding a DM or two for advantageous or detrimental strength is within the spirit and granularity.

Changing the dynamic of the to hit roll by adding more damage for skill goes too far in my opinion. The to hit roll is combination of landing a blow and the actual quality of the blow, by the probability of more damage over the course for the higher skilled opponent.

The farthest I'd go is similar to your armor adjustments. I came up with unarmed weapon "types" for brawling (similar to the example of a bottle being a club for one hit and then a dagger -1 after that) each with it's own (very similar) weapon and range matrix table. Boxing (and therefore Boxer's) could be modelled in the same way. Not sure why I didn't do Boxing actually, just more into Eastern stuff at the time I guess. Anyway it's easy enough so a quick jab at it...

Boxing - Any character with Brawling 3+ can be considered to have mastered a single style of unarmed combat, in this case that of Pugilism. When such a character fights unarmed with just their hands they use the following matrix instead of the standard one:
</font><blockquote>code:</font><hr /><pre style="font-size:x-small; font-family: monospace;">Defender's Armor:
Nothing Jack Mesh Cloth Reflec Ablat Cbt Armor
+2 +1 -1 -1 +1 0 -6

Range Matrix:

Close Short Medium+ Wound Inflicted
+1 +2 no 1D*</pre>[/QUOTE]* If wearing approved gloves the wound is stunning damage only.

 

[Supplement Four]

Originally posted by far-trader:
Changing the dynamic of the to hit roll by adding more damage for skill goes too far in my opinion.

I'm tending to agree.

I think the random dice thingy I've got going works fine. I don't like complicating CT, and an extra die checked against skill would be a bit more complication, albeit a manageable one.

The random dice thingy means that Mike Tyson will have his 1D +2 damage applied randomly most of the time, where as someone with a low skill level won't get that die random hardly any of the time.

That makes Mike much more deadly.

I think my random dice thingy indirectly models the influence of skill on damage nicely, and I think I'll stick with that.

 

[Supplement Four]

Originally posted by far-trader:
Changing the dynamic of the to hit roll by adding more damage for skill goes too far in my opinion.

I'm tending to agree.

I think the random dice thingy I've got going works fine. I don't like complicating CT, and an extra die checked against skill would be a bit more complication, albeit a manageable one.

The random dice thingy means that Mike Tyson will have his 1D +2 damage applied randomly most of the time, where as someone with a low skill level won't get that die random hardly any of the time.

That makes Mike much more deadly.

I think my random dice thingy indirectly models the influence of skill on damage nicely, and I think I'll stick with that.

 

[Supplement Four]

Originally posted by far-trader:
</font><blockquote>code:</font><hr /><pre style="font-size:x-small; font-family: monospace;">Defender's Armor:
Nothing Jack Mesh Cloth Reflec Ablat Cbt Armor
+2 +1 -1 -1 +1 0 -6

Range Matrix:

Close Short Medium+ Wound Inflicted
+1 +2 no 1D*</pre>

* If wearing approved gloves the wound is stunning damage only. [/quote]BTW, one of the JTAS articles has some stuff like this on martial arts: Kicks, punches, easter weapons, etc.

I haven't read the article, but it looked cool. I'll get around to it.

 

[Supplement Four]

Originally posted by far-trader:
</font><blockquote>code:</font><hr /><pre style="font-size:x-small; font-family: monospace;">Defender's Armor:
Nothing Jack Mesh Cloth Reflec Ablat Cbt Armor
+2 +1 -1 -1 +1 0 -6

Range Matrix:

Close Short Medium+ Wound Inflicted
+1 +2 no 1D*</pre>

* If wearing approved gloves the wound is stunning damage only. [/quote]BTW, one of the JTAS articles has some stuff like this on martial arts: Kicks, punches, easter weapons, etc.

I haven't read the article, but it looked cool. I'll get around to it.