Skill Frequency

[atpollard]

That calculation seems very bent. I'm pretty sure the middle class isn't supposed to map to Soc 3-4. Since the default roll is 2d6, soc 3-4 seems like it ought to represent 12% of people pretty near the bottom of society, not the middle class, who I expect to find closer to the middle of 2-12. The costs of lifestyle things map to this, so remapping Soc to a different average and spread begs a deeper rewriting of the game.

... or the "average" interstellar traveler is in the top 20% of the planetary population and 2D6 reflect the average "TRAVELLER PC" rather than the average Planetary citizen.

The average "Starship Salary" is Cr 3000 / month = $ 180,000+ per year while the median US salary is $67,000 per year = Cr 1100 / month.

 

[Badenov]

... or the "average" interstellar traveler is in the top 20% of the planetary population and 2D6 reflect the average "TRAVELLER PC" rather than the average Planetary citizen.

The average "Starship Salary" is Cr 3000 / month = $ 180,000+ per year while the median US salary is $67,000 per year = Cr 1100 / month.

Given the cost of travel in Traveller, that almost seems reasonable. That would make a first class starship ticket cost nearly a full year's salary for a median worker.

 

[whulorigan]

That calculation seems very bent. I'm pretty sure the middle class isn't supposed to map to Soc 3-4. Since the default roll is 2d6, soc 3-4 seems like it ought to represent 12% of people pretty near the bottom of society, not the middle class, who I expect to find closer to the middle of 2-12. The costs of lifestyle things map to this, so remapping Soc to a different average and spread begs a deeper rewriting of the game.

The system ought to represent an "Imperial Standard General Scale" of sorts; otherwise, what do you do with the "King" or "Chief" of the aboriginals in the grass skirts on the TL-1 world? What is his "Social Standing" as "King" and "Great Authority" in the Local Culture? SS=10? SS=11? SS=12? When do we all get to laugh at the IISS Code in his UPP record? There is a reason we do not rate the Parochial Duke in the Local Planetary Aristocracy of King Arglebargle IV with the same Soc-code as an Imperial Duke By-the-Hand-of-His-Imperial-Majesty.

But that means the numerical codes also ought to filter down to the common masses as well in terms of relative comparative scale. It could be an interesting thing for a character to discover that the Sophisticated Somebody he was on his homeworld translates to Nobody on the Interstellar Community scale. (- And this in many ways plays into to the charm of many Traveller characters).

I have actually seen this first-hand, working at a fairly well-known private University with a fairly significant International Student Body. A number of years ago a new Freshman from a foreign country (Third World, but from obvious local wealth) lived on-campus and it was clear that he was used to being treated as "aristocracy" where he came from and being deferred to by others, taking an attitude of polite superiority with other people and looking down his nose at his college "peers". It wasn't long before his Western "peers" decided they had had enough of his behavior and let him know in no uncertain terms what they thought of his attitude, at which point he became incensed at their "behavior", letting them know exactly who he and his family were and just how many "sheep" his family owned back home, at which point the rest of the group burst out laughing so hard they couldn't contain themselves (which only made him more furious). The point being, that what was High Social Standing for him back home was at best common (perhaps upper) middle class here. And his "aristocracy" meant nothing at any rate, and vast numbers of people here lived at a standard of living comparable to what he was familiar with (certainly most of his college peers who could afford a college education (with loans to pay back later), and they rubbed shoulders with "normal" common people everywhere, every day). He simply was nobody special here, by any meaningful metric. ( - Epilogue: Fortunately he eventually did get over the culture shock and was able to have more meaningful and productive interpersonal relationships).

So that all being said, on the "IISS Universal UPP Scale", where do we classify the "average" Subjects of Empire as Citizens of the Imperium, being residents and citizens of Imperial Member-Worlds?

SOCIAL STANDING - IMPERIAL STANDARD SCALE

UPP Code	Social Level	Level Name(s)	Comments
0	No Level.		Object. Robot.
1	Slave		"Officially" Illegal in Imperium
2	LLC	Lower-Lower Class	Lumpenproletariat / Peasant (Cottager)
3	MLC	Middle-Lower Class	Working Class - Unskilled Trade / Peasant (Villein)
4	LUC	Upper-Lower Class	Working Class - Skilled Trade / Village Reeve (Goodman-Husbandman)
5	LMC	Lower-Middle Class	Office Worker
6	MMC	Middle-Middle Class	Office Manager/ Yeoman
7	UMC-1	(Lower) Upper-Middle Class	Average "Traveller" / Franklin - "Well-to-Do" The average citizen never leaves his homeworld
8	UMC-2	(Upper) Upper-Middle Class	"Upscale Bourgeoisie"
9	LUC-1	(Lower) Lower-Upper Class	Lesser Local Untitled Landed Gentry ("Well-Born") (Minor Worlds)

10 (A)	LUC-2 / Imp LIC-1	(Upper) Lower-Upper Class / Imperial: Lower Imperial Class-1	Greater Local Landed Gentry ("Local" Knight/Baronet) / Lesser Local Nobles / Imperial Landed Gentry
11 (B)	MUC / Imp LIC-2	Middle-Upper Class / Imperial: Lower Imperial Class-2	Local Nobles / Imperial Knight
12 (c)	UUC-1 / Imp LMIC-1	(Lower) Upper-Upper Class / Imperial: Lower-Middle Imperial Class-1	Local Royals (Minor World) / Imperial Baronet
12 (C)	UUC-2 / Imp LMIC-2	(Middle) Upper-Upper Class / Imperial: Lower-Middle Imperial Class-2	Local Royals (Major World) / Over-Royals (Minor World) / Imperial Baron
13 (d)	UUC-3 / Imp MIC-1	(Upper) Upper-Upper Class / Imperial: Middle Imperial Class-1	Over-Royals (Major World) / Imperial Lord/Baron-Peer
13 (D)	Imp MIC-2	Imperial: Middle Imperial Class-2	Imperial Marquis
14 (e)	Imp UMIC-1	Imperial: Upper-Middle Imperial Class-1	Imperial Viscount
14 (E)	Imp UMIC-2	Imperial: Upper-Middle Imperial Class-2	Imperial Count
15 (f)	Imp LUIC-1	Imperial: Lower-Upper Imperial Class-1	Imperial Duke
15 (F)	Imp LUIC-2	Imperial: Lower-Upper Imperial Class-2	Imperial (Subsector) Duke

16 (g)	Imp MUIC-1	Imperial: Middle-Upper Imperial Class-1	(Imperial) Grand Duke / Prince
16 (G)	Imp MUIC-2	Imperial: Middle-Upper Imperial Class-2	Imperial Archduke / Prince (Imperial Household)
17 (h)	Imp UUIC-1	Imperial: Upper-Upper Imperial Class-1	Grand Prince (Imperial Heir Apparent)
17 (H)	Imp UUIC-2	Imperial: Upper-Upper Imperial Class-2	Emperor

 

[whulorigan]

The whole thing that Marines don't get anyone above O-8 except the actual person in command of the Corps as a whole bothers me also. It seems to be that Marines are managed more or less like separate subsector services and only organized to that level. That would mean that Imperial Marines in adjacent subsectors would have very little commonality apart from by chance.

Agreed. The Imperial Marine Command Structure ought to at least somewhat parallel the Imperial Navy Command Structure, if only for the ability to coordinate since they work closely together. So just what does the Sector Admiral do when he is dealing with a potential major conflict, and needs to try and coordinate operations across a Sector? Who does he contact in the Imperial Marine Command Structure to communicate his needs and discuss operations? What if it is a Frontier War level engagement that is Trans-Sector-wide, and needs to coordinate with an assigned Grand Admiral?

wiki.travellrerpg.com says Imperial Marine O-7 and O-8 are Navy appointments, and I'm not sure quite what that even means. If it means the Navy selects which Marines make O-7 and O-8, that's sketchy. If it means Naval Officers are selected for Marine O-7 and O-8, that's bent.

It means that as one of the people who contributed to that write-up trying to make sense of the canon material and trying to stay within its spirit without deviating too severely with my own innovations, O7/Brigadier was the highest Marine Rank in a number of canonical publication (including CT: Book 1, GT, and T5, the (then-current) standard), whereas other CharGens allowed for the possibility (or at least implied they might) have ranks up thru O10/General. So trying to work within the framework, an O8/Brigadier-General for the Marines was not unreasonable given the organizational need and the apparent Imperial Service Tradition in Rank-naming.

An editor may have inadvertently altered the text in the article (or maybe I even entered an erratum unintentionally), but the idea (I believe) was supposed to be that O7/Brigadier was a Substantive Rank, whereas O8/Brigadier General might be an Appointment Rank by the Navy (an Acting or Brevet) for an O7/Brigadier (again, not wanting to stray too far from the canon Rank List). I personally think O8/Brigadier General needs to be a full Substantive Rank, given the Imperial Navy structure going to at least the Sector Admiral level.

The lack of officers over O-8 implies either that Marines have no commonality (other than the name) Empire-wide, which doesn't really work for me, or else all the higher-level organization is left purely in the hands of the Navy, which does not make sense, and will almost certainly result in problems.

I think that there should at least be an O9-Rank as well, but I didn't want to push innovation in the Wiki article too far.

O9/Brigadier-Marshal (?) / Commander-General (?)
O10/Commandant-Marshal (?)

O9/Briagdier-Commandant (?) / General-Commandant (?)
O10/Briagdier-Commandant-of-the-Corps (?) / General-Commandant-of-the-Corps (?)

 

[kilemall]

I tend to reserve Commodore for merchant marine, for either commodore of a line or commodore of a convoy.

 

[Condottiere]

The commander of the Marine Corps should be one step below the First Space Lord of the Admiralty, since the Marine Corps is nowhere as large as the Imperial Army, and is dependent on the Navy for quite a number of services.

 

[Rupert]

That calculation seems very bent. I'm pretty sure the middle class isn't supposed to map to Soc 3-4. Since the default roll is 2d6, soc 3-4 seems like it ought to represent 12% of people pretty near the bottom of society, not the middle class, who I expect to find closer to the middle of 2-12. The costs of lifestyle things map to this, so remapping Soc to a different average and spread begs a deeper rewriting of the game.

Note that income and wealth distributions in the US today are quite different (a lot less even, and a lot more wealth in the hands of the very rich) from the mid-late 70s when Traveller was first designed and published. Also, even if you view the chargen rules as being a simulation, they're simulating the likely distribution of 'travellers', not the general population. I'd expect most people in the Imperium to have a low income and SOC, but not terribly low, because the vast majority of people live of hi-pop worlds of middling to high wealth, so they'll be working-class people in reasonably affluent societies. Low SOC and wealth means being working class/poor on those grubby little worlds that travellers seem to spend so much time on.

 

[Rupert]

The commander of the Marine Corps should be one step below the First Space Lord of the Admiralty, since the Marine Corps is nowhere as large as the Imperial Army, and is dependent on the Navy for quite a number of services.

A lot depends on what the 'Imperial Army' is in YTU. If it's a bunch of units from member worlds that are rounded up and 'Imperialised' in the event of a war, there's not going to be much of a top-end 'cap' to the rank pyramid. If it's a thing even in peace time (even if really just on paper), then it will need some kind of capstone structure.

 

[Condottiere]

If it's one five thousand member Marine regiment per subsector, I would think that they'd be safely outmanned.

 

[TamsinP]

My understanding is one IM regiment per subsector, plus starport, naval base and shipboard detachments. Still not very many, but there role is to capture landing zones and key infrastructure quickly before army units arrive in force, so maybe that's enough.

 

[mike wightman]

There are eight Imperial Star Marine regiments on the order of battle for the FFW boardgame, that is a lot more than one per subsector

 

[Condottiere]

How many of those were redeployed from garrisons, and the sector reserve?

 

[mike wightman]

Who knows.
There are eight regiments available in the area mapped by the FFW boardgame.

 

[Condottiere]

In theory, the sector reserve should have at least three regiments, to rotate for rapid deployment.

And the Spinward Marches is both a border, with a near peer adversary, and a fairly recent war zone.

Whether or not it was worth it, the Romans had three legions garrisoned in Britain.