CT Only: Skills in the Other career

[whulorigan]

... I don't care if my character isn't as "powerful" as the next guy's. We're all just making up a story about spacemen so who cares anyway? I never really understood the min-maxing mentality, which is probably why I don't get GURPS.

It isn't about being "powerful" or min-maxing. :file_28:

It is about playing a character that fits a certain concept.

I don't have enough gaming time to waste it playing some guy who doesn't interest me, just because that's what the dice spit out. :file_28:

I second SpaceBadger's response.

Do not presume that just because someone likes point-buy systems that it automatically means they are trying to "min-max" or game the system. What it often means is that the player simply wants to tailor the character to a predefined concept in his mind.

I have played characters that were created with point-buy systems before, and none of them were "max-min".

 

[Baron]

I'm not a min-maxer, and I don't need to have the effect of the exact same number of "build points" as the other players either. I do want to play a concept though, even if I develop the concept after I get a character that survives chargen.

Granted, I think the later books, Mercenary et al, created characters that have so many more skills that they don't mix well with LBB 1-3/Supp 4 characters. That's a problem, because the more detailed chargen can be fun, but there aren't enough character types available in the detailed system. So you can easily have a group that wants to use a combination of chargen systems.

If all the other players got, say, twenty chances for skill rolls, and I got only ten, I would feel put out. It's not fair, and the perception of fairness affects our enjoyment of the game.

If this upsets you or your players, the only question is how to make things a little more fair.

 

[Marchand]

It isn't about being "powerful" or min-maxing. :nonono:

It is about playing a character that fits a certain concept.

I don't have enough gaming time to waste it playing some guy who doesn't interest me, just because that's what the dice spit out. :nonono:

Fair enough, but in that case, CT probably isn't the game to be playing RAW.

You have shifted ground though, away from saying "getting fewer skills is frustrating" (which only makes sense if character power level is important to you), towards "I can't necessarily get the character I want from CT random lifepath chargen".

Saying CT random-lifepath chargen can't guarantee to deliver a player-chosen concept is a little like criticising a Lamborghini for not being much use offroad. True, but it wasn't supposed to do that anyway.

A big part of the fun with CT chargen for me is coming up with the life story that goes with the raw numbers. Like Captain Jameson's slight resentment of the merchant service, for example.

For me, dice first, concept later is a feature, not a bug.

 

[atpollard]

Fair enough, but in that case, CT probably isn't the game to be playing RAW.

You have shifted ground though, away from saying "getting fewer skills is frustrating" (which only makes sense if character power level is important to you), towards "I can't necessarily get the character I want from CT random lifepath chargen".

Saying CT random-lifepath chargen can't guarantee to deliver a player-chosen concept is a little like criticising a Lamborghini for not being much use offroad. True, but it wasn't supposed to do that anyway.

A big part of the fun with CT chargen for me is coming up with the life story that goes with the raw numbers. Like Captain Jameson's slight resentment of the merchant service, for example.

For me, dice first, concept later is a feature, not a bug.

But how often have you chosen to play a LBB1 Other Career?
Why or why not?
That's what I would really want to hear your opinions on.

Personally, I tend to favor Technical Characters ... starship crew types ... so I gravitated towards the Navy Career.
Or I want to play a Trader/Broker and make lots of money, so I pursue the Merchant Career.
I recently wanted to try to play a shady character, so I took a shot at the Other career. I've stated my opinions of the experience and would like to hear yours.

 

[Baron]

I play Other when I don't want military or traders. When I want to play Dumarest. Other has a lot of ground to cover, and could use some help. Citizens helps though. I think it's fine to create new careers as well. But a generic college option would be nice.

 

[rancke]

I play Other when I don't want military or traders.

That's when I would turn to Supplement 4.

Other has a lot of ground to cover, and could use some help. Citizens helps though. I think it's fine to create new careers as well.

Being unable to see the point of eschewing house rules, I would probably turn a draft result of 6 into a roll for a CotI career. And I might add various careers from other sources, such as law enforcer, too.


Hans

 

[Marchand]

But how often have you chosen to play a LBB1 Other Career?
Why or why not?
That's what I would really want to hear your opinions on.

Alas I have never played CT RAW, having come to the hobby quite late (mid-2000s), but I did cite above my experience playing an MGT Drifter. He was Mr 5 - I rolled a disproportionate number of 5s in chargen (done in group), so not much promotion!

However, his limited skillset was used to the fullest, in particular when distracting an angry mob by busting out some dance moves... great game, happy times.

If playing CT RAW, I would have no problem playing an Other because relative power level doesn't matter a damn to me.

I'm still unclear whether you're objecting to Others being underskilled or to lack of direction in chargen, though.

 

[SpaceBadger]

If playing CT RAW, I would have no problem playing an Other because relative power level doesn't matter a damn to me.

I'm still unclear whether you're objecting to Others being underskilled or to lack of direction in chargen, though.

Suppose your character concept is that you'd like to play a guy who is a hotshot forger. You probably want him to have Forgery at least 3 or 4, Computers 1 or 2. Would be nice to have a couple of other things just for variety and color. If you are not getting as many skill rolls by going in the Other career, you are going to find it extremely difficult. If you've got more rolls, you have a better chance that enough of them will give you what you want, while the rolls that have other results are what hand you some surprises, or inspiration, or color, or whatever else you want to call that random stuff.

Same problem for just about any other kind of shady concept; would make it really hard to build a "Leverage"-type team, for example (unless they are all 7+ term geezers*).


* I am allowed to use this term, being an 8+ term geezer myself.

 

[JEH]

I think of the "Other" career as a draft dodger who's gone off the grid. Skills seem to fit too

 

[Jame]

That's when I would turn to Supplement 4.


Being unable to see the point of eschewing house rules, I would probably turn a draft result of 6 into a roll for a CotI career. And I might add various careers from other sources, such as law enforcer, too.


Hans

If I ever run a CT game I would use the Bk1 and Supp 4 careers plus the Drifter and Scavenger careers I made, though I would allow a player to use the Other career. This character could be a jack-of-all-trades.

Though I would let it be know that certain skills on any career list could have a level switched for a level in another skill, such as switching Computer for Forgery, Tactics for Vacsuit, or -1 Soc to +1 Strength (for example).

 

[atpollard]

If playing CT RAW, I would have no problem playing an Other because relative power level doesn't matter a damn to me.

I'm still unclear whether you're objecting to Others being underskilled or to lack of direction in chargen, though.

The lack of direction in Chargen does not bother me, personally.
I can easily understand why others would have a different opinion and in a game that I was the Referee in ... I would tell someone who had a strong concept of what he wanted the character to be to just pick the skills.

Relative power does, however, 'matter a damn to me'.
Playing a one term ex-Marine grunt in a group of 5 Term ex-Navy Officers because you chose to accept the situation as a roleplaying personal challenge, is one thing. However, I expect a certain innate balance to be built into the rules as written of a game. To use AD&D as an example, I expect that a Fighter, a Thief, a Cleric and a Wizard will be very different, but I would expect the choice to be one of player personal preference rather than overwhelming mechanical advantage or disadvantage for one class over another. In my experience playing Traveller, I found the Army, Navy, Marine, Merchant and Scout careers to be roughly comparable in terms of game mechanics. I expected the Other career to be similarly balanced. I am disappointed that it was not, especially when the exact same skill problem was fixed for the Scout Career from the 1977 to 1981 printings of LBB 1.

I actually found Space Badger's post hit the nail on the head for me ... the other career provides players with a little extra 'kick while you are down'.

 

[Marchand]

If you've got more rolls, you have a better chance that enough of them will give you what you want

If you want to up power levels to allow more chance of pre-chosen concepts emerging from the die rolls, fine, whatever, it's your game. But why not just cut right to the point and houserule to allow more skill choice in chargen. After all, even if you gave Others 2 skills per turn, a Forger-4 Computer-2 character would still be pretty unlikely.

I am allowed to use this term, being an 8+ term geezer myself.

Not allowed by the rules, mate, sorry

Relative power does, however, 'matter a damn to me'.
...I expect a certain innate balance to be built into the rules as written of a game.

Firstly, random lifepath chargen is going to generate unbalanced characters, absent houserules. There will be ex post imbalance.

But I think you're arguing you want ex ante balance, that is, if you ran chargen 1000 times on a computer, on average the characters coming out of each career would be roughly balanced. Fair enough. Personally I am not that bothered.

Clearly Other career is unbalanced. But I think it's a wee bit less unbalanced than it seems at first glance. As noted it offers the only route to the potentially hugely useful Forger skill. It also offers the highest potential cash benefit of any Bk 1 career - KCr100 if you have at least Gambler-1.

I think it might just be being British that makes me quite relaxed about the fundamental unfairness of life. I can see all those Others as the 3rd Imperium equivalent of chippy Cockneys and heavily-tattoo'd Glaswegians... (my dad is from Glasgow so no offence intended!)

All that said, I would just stick in a promotion roll of 10+, +1 per characteristic over 9.

 

[SpaceBadger]

But why not just cut right to the point and houserule to allow more skill choice in chargen.

Now there's an idea!

However, this discussion was about the fairness/unfairness of the Other career by RAW, so that is what I was addressing. To reiterate, it isn't about "power" or min-maxing, it is about having a reasonable chance (at least equal to the military/merchant/scout careers) of being able to build a character to fit your concept.

 

[aramis]

Now there's an idea!

However, this discussion was about the fairness/unfairness of the Other career by RAW, so that is what I was addressing. To reiterate, it isn't about "power" or min-maxing, it is about having a reasonable chance (at least equal to the military/merchant/scout careers) of being able to build a character to fit your concept.

Which is, at its core, antithetical to the CT play experience, which is about playing what you get.

 

[Baron]

Which is, at its core, antithetical to the CT play experience, which is about playing what you get.

Now there's a sweeping generalization if I've ever read one.

 

[atpollard]

Which is, at its core, antithetical to the CT play experience, which is about playing what you get.

Yes and no.
With the heavy reliance on random die rolls in CT Chargen, there will be an inevitable strong random element to what you get.

However, by enlisting in the Marines and focusing my random rolls on the Service Skill table, I can reasonably expect a very different general result than I would achieve by enlisting in the Merchants and focusing my skill rolls on the Advanced Education Table (Edu 8+).

While the specific results will be a surprise, the general results are not 100% random.

[Confession: I do have to admit that surprises are still possible ... I tried to 'suicide by scout' once and ended up with a character with Medic 5 ... I did not see that coming. ]

 

[Jame]

Now there's an idea!

However, this discussion was about the fairness/unfairness of the Other career by RAW, so that is what I was addressing. To reiterate, it isn't about "power" or min-maxing, it is about having a reasonable chance (at least equal to the military/merchant/scout careers) of being able to build a character to fit your concept.

Do you mean like this:

Though I would let it be know that certain skills on any career list could have a level switched for a level in another skill, such as switching Computer for Forgery, Tactics for Vacsuit, or -1 Soc to +1 Strength (for example).

 

[Marchand]

I am allowed to use this term, being an 8+ term geezer myself.

Not allowed by the rules, mate, sorry

Just to correct myself:

Service beyond the seventh term is normally impossible, and retirement is
mandatory for an individual who has completed a seventh term of service. However,
persons who throw mandatory reenlistment must instead serve that additional
term of service. It is theoretically possible for an individual to be required to serve
ninth and even tenth terms under mandatory reenlistment.

/hangs head in shame

 

[Jame]

Which is, at its core, antithetical to the CT play experience, which is about playing what you get.

Which is what my fiancee says she dislikes about the Traveller character generation system (admittedly, she is coming from D&D 3.x).

 

[rancke]

Which is, at its core, antithetical to the CT play experience, which is about playing what you get.

It's not unique to Traveller; so is D&D and any other game with random and semi-random character generation. And it's not required either; you can play Traveller with characters that are tailored to a campaign.


Hans