Slavery in Traveller ( need not be OTU)

[Blue Ghost]

I think what you mean is that many jobs done by human beings become anachronistic with the advent of automation. It's just easier to lay off obsoleted workers hired for wages than to liquidate slaves. Well, unless another market exists, manumission is easy, or you are able to kill all the slaves.

Yeah, sorry I wasn't clearer.

I seem to recall that both Imperial Rome and the ancient Greek city and island states had slaves, and that slaves had a certain amount of humanity directed at them. They didn't have any rights, were property, but were recognized as human beings by a great deal of the population, and were given a certain amount of decency by people.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not arguing for slavery here, but I wonder if something like what existed in Imperial Rome or Greece might manifest itself in sections of the 3I.

 

[BwapTED]

Yeah, sorry I wasn't clearer.

I seem to recall that both Imperial Rome and the ancient Greek city and island states had slaves, and that slaves had a certain amount of humanity directed at them. They didn't have any rights, were property, but were recognized as human beings by a great deal of the population, and were given a certain amount of decency by people.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not arguing for slavery here, but I wonder if something like what existed in Imperial Rome or Greece might manifest itself in sections of the 3I.

Don't worry, I doubt anyone will mistake a discussion of the conditions of life for slaves in different times and places as an argument for slavery being put in place in the present day.
I certainly won't.

Treatment of slaves in the Roman Republic and Empire seems to have varied a lot. IIRC, under the old Roman law, the pater familias could kill slaves out of hand. (Also his own children.) Some slaves were probably treated very poorly, given the brutality of the uprisings that did occur. The Romans crucified large numbers of slave rebels during the Servile Wars. The latifundia were likely harsh places from what I have read, although I seem to recall that just about all of the contemporary criticisms of those had more to do with undermining the freeborn citizen farmer than with any concern for the slaves.

Christianity starts to change things (for the better, if you think slavery is bad) but the process takes centuries.

I am not arguing against the economic shifts being an important part of the gradual decline of slavery.

I don't think any single factor explains something that complex very well.


RE the earlier Greeks, Aristotle writes about slavery. IIRC, he considered it artificial but necessary. Someone has to do the grunt work. (Later recycled as the mud sill argument, under very different social conditions and with a color/caste component not present in Ancient Greece).
I think maybe Euripides raises some questions of justice and humanity in regard to slavery.

But my overall impression of Antiquity is that hardly anyone thought twice about slavery. It was just part of the order of things. Lose a war and you might be enslaved. At the risk of generalizing, most societies seem to have had a mechanism for freeing slaves. But some kind of client status wasn't uncommon for freedmen. The Romans had that for a long time.
Slavery in Antiquity was not generally about caste, color, or any of that.

Spartan Helots were a caste, sort of. But I am not sure that I would call them slaves. And serf confuses them with people living under very different social and economic conditions. Probably it is best to just call them helots.

If anyone has other ideas or information, please do share. I hope I do not seem pedantic. This is an area of interest for me.

 

[BwapTED]

RE the OTU


I recall a minor human race in GURPS Humaniti that uses a form of unfree labor, which the Imperium has officially ruled not to be slavery.

 

[Blue Ghost]

That's fairly interesting. I'm sorry I haven't read the whole thread (I may later), so forgive me if what I suggest has already been proposed, but it seems like there might be high-tech sections of the Imperium that still might institute slavery under the edict of the local duke or baron. And it might be under special circumstances too, or perhaps a known legal device used to actually protect someone; i.e. an extended family member say broke the law, but their innocence or guilt is in dispute. As an Imperial minor noble he might be under the sway of certain legislation, but as a slave maybe he's afforded the status of property, and cannot be taken.

Sex slavery; I've seen several documentaries on prostitution, and I cannot get a straight answer here of the whole industry. In a National Geographic documentary and a couple other docs, they show prostitution as being a manifest of sexual slavery; i.e. sociopaths or organized crime types threatening and forcing women into prostitution. Then several other documentaries show girls actually choosing it as a career, or as a stepping stone to earn money to pay for education so they can move onto what they want to do.

I bring it up because it seems to be a topic in dispute, and if you're going to hint at it in Traveller, then it might do well to get the whole nature of the trade accurate.

But again, in my opinion at least, it comes down to automation. At high enough tech levels I think artificial companions become commonplace, as does automated manual labor, so if any form of slavery exists (even for sexual companionship), then I would guess that it exists in areas with low tech or low access to tech, or worlds that are poor and are struggling to get by, or worlds that are outside the protection of the Imperial Navy (or any of the big empire's navies).

I guess what I'm saying is that a human being, or a sophont, is already the ultimate robot, but if you can replace him/her/it with something that doesn't require that same kind of maintenance, then why would you keep a slave?

Just my two bits.

 

[Cryton]

[m;] NORMALLY ANY MENTION OF A REAL WORLD RELIGION OUTSIDE THE PIT IS AN INFRACTABLE OFFENSE: HOWEVER, DUE TO ITS IMPORTANCE IN DISCUSSING THE SUBJECT MATTER, AND IN DEFERENCE TO THE RESPECT SHOWN SO FAR BY ALL POSTING IN THIS THREAD, THE PENALTY FOR THE ABOVE POSTS IS WAIVED. DO NOT ASSUME THAT THIS MEANS THAT USING REAL WORLD RELIGIOUS REFERENCES OUTSIDE THE PIT IS ALLOWED, BUT ONLY THAT IN THIS INSTANCE, THE PENALTY HAS BEEN WAIVED [/M;]

 

[Cryton]

Warning aside guys, I am really enjoying this thread. Do continue to show respect for the religious references that are so deeply entwined in this topic, or I will have to move the whole thread to the pit where it can be continued without worry for rule 3 infractions.

~Cryton

 

[Quint]

On the high tech vs. low tech nature of slavery. I think that the movie Elysium did a good job of pointing out how increasing tech level does not necessarily lead to a egalitarian Utopia. That's based on how the culture organizes itself on both a social level, and how resources are shared or distributed.

For all we know the 3I may essentially write everything "slavery" off as a "cultural idiosyncrasy" as long as it does not involve transporting of sophonts between star systems against their will or without informed consent - aside from the sorts of company store scenarios that seem to exist on the bleeding edge of legality (I seem to remember this boing a plot point in a CT adventure).

So, local slavery is kind of like local nobility. As long as it's kept local, it is essentially ignored as long as it doesn't become too odious. Again, keeping the 3I policy of hands-off for local politics (and religion, and law level, etc. etc. etc.) - it's when you try to import or export people (or enslave travellers) that the 3I takes notice and steps in.

The 3I doesn't care is by local law, the King/Archon/Grand Poobah technically owns all of their subjects until it starts to muck with either the interstellar economy - including genocide because it's removing a potential workforce or market for goods. Lord So-and-So may have a harem of 69 pleasure slaves, but until he tries to sell one off-world, murders one off-world, or tries to add an off-worlder the 3I could really care less.

D.

D.

 

[Blue Ghost]

Would you characterize the 3I as something akin to the northern states just before the American Civil War; i.e. a tolerant government with an intolerant population, who frown heavily upon worlds or segments of the Imperium that do permit slavery?

 

[mike wightman]

There is a little gem hidden in the T5 rules on Guests - force grown clones used as slave labour, owned and tradable and completely legal.

So, the Imperium does have grey areas with regards to slavery...

 

[aramis]

Unfortunately, if a society moves towards high tech and is not at least somewhat egalitarian... <political commentary reflecting current US elections withheld to prevent Cryton developing ulcers>

Let's just say that non-egalitarian systems will tend to get wider divides between rich and poor, until either the poor are (as in Elysium) developing a parallel culture that is becoming a new force, or a system where those incapable of academic or technological jobs either starve or are terminated.

There is also the issue of "who can afford to buy"...

note that, as a general rule, the wealthier a person is, the more likely they are to have investments, and the more they tend to have invested.
Also, as a general rule, the wealthier also tend to spend less as a percentage on their lifestyle, and less of a percentage upon charitable giving, than those with lesser incomes.

This is a feedback cycle...
Note that, in absolute terms, yes, the more income someone has, the more they spend on lifestyle, it's also a lower percentage of their income. Same for charitable giving, and upon transportation.
In highly egalitarian regimes, taxation will tend to keep the investment principle increase low, and redistribute that wealth to the poor, so that there are markets to produce goods for in the first place.

Essentially, non-egalitarian societies need external, more egalitarian markets

 

[shadowlord]

As a Quick Note Prostitution up until the mid 1890"s was seen as a semi legal way for women to support themseleves. It was was looked down upon by ritous citizens of course but still sort of Ok. In the Mid 1890's The clergy ( I think Methodist but not sure) began a campaineg saying that women were force into prostitution as a form of white slavery. In fact the FBI was original formed to stop this practice. Another form of what some have considered slavery was the practice of Indentured servitude, but that is open to debate.

 

[BwapTED]

There is a little gem hidden in the T5 rules on Guests - force grown clones used as slave labour, owned and tradable and completely legal.

So, the Imperium does have grey areas with regards to slavery...

Interesting!

Shades of BladeRunner. Although there the replicants aren't exactly clones.

 

[BwapTED]

As a Quick Note Prostitution up until the mid 1890"s was seen as a semi legal way for women to support themseleves. It was was looked down upon by ritous citizens of course but still sort of Ok. In the Mid 1890's The clergy ( I think Methodist but not sure) began a campaineg saying that women were force into prostitution as a form of white slavery. In fact the FBI was original formed to stop this practice. Another form of what some have considered slavery was the practice of Indentured servitude, but that is open to debate.

Speaking of indenture...


Was there not a loose contract versus tight contract conflict in the Dorsai universe?
(I have only read part of the series)?

It is not slavery, but the tight contract system seems relevant.


RE slavery in Traveller, has anybody else here read "A Slave is a Slave", by H Beam Piper?
I always assumed, perhaps wrongly, that Piper's fiction had a significant influence on the development of OTU and that the slavery ban in the game stuff was inspired in part by the TerroHuman Future History (as well as 19th Century British Empire stuff).

 

[aramis]

Indenture of clones is legal at least through the 600's. Serfdom, too

Spoiler:

in Agent,

Spoiler:

Bland works with one indentured clone. Manumits her. Likewise, mention of serfdom is also made.

 

[mike wightman]

T5 also has Synthetics - I have a hard time accepting them as machines rather than living (albeit artificial) beings. As a result they too can be treated as slaves/goods rather than be protected by the Imperial 'no slavery' 'guideline'...

Between clones and synthetics I'm beginning to get a picture of why there are so many low population but high TL worlds in the Imperium...

I think there is a dark secret of the third Imperium in the making.

 

[BwapTED]

T5 also has Synthetics - I have a hard time accepting them as machines rather than living (albeit artificial) beings. As a result they too can be treated as slaves/goods rather than be protected by the Imperial 'no slavery' 'guideline'...

Between clones and synthetics I'm beginning to get a picture of why there are so many low population but high TL worlds in the Imperium...

I think there is a dark secret of the third Imperium in the making.

Indeed!

I seem to recall some milieu zero hints about the Zhunastu family owning major robot manufacturing interests, which casts the whole antislavery crusade thing in a rather different light.

It gets even darker and grittier if artificial people are being made and sold. When do these synthetics show up?