In your understanding of canon, does this include one the member worlds, outside the XT line, or just in Imperial jurisdiction?
Slavery in Traveller ( need not be OTU)
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In your understanding of canon, does this include one the member worlds, outside the XT line, or just in Imperial jurisdiction?
epicenter00
SOC-13
Just as a historical note, this is untrue.
If you look at one of history's most famous slave-driven nations, the Romans, eventually relied very heavily on slave-plantations in all areas of the Empire to supply imperial populations (particularly those in the Imperial City of Rome) basic foodstuffs such as grain or olive oil. The Latifundia. With growing economies of scale, the Latifundia basically drove a lot of the small landholding farmers out of business and bought their land (or in other cases just confiscated the land outright (as the owners were of the Senatorial class).
Yep.
Slave labor has also been profitably employed in mines and mills.
As has been pointed out several times in this thread, slaves in various societies of the past have done all sorts of work.
I suspect that production of cash crops looms large in the minds of many Americans because of our history(justifiably so), but we employed slaves as everything from cattle drovers to limners and blacksmith's apprentices.
heh. the biggest driver of anti-slavery in the u.s. was high-paid mechanics' farmers' and laborers' resistance to slave labor driving down their wages. in calling for "free states" they primarily meant "free of blacks".
one of the biggest arguments in favor of american black slave labor was that only blacks could tolerate working in the climates best suited to certain crops, and that without slave labor those crops never could have been produced in any useful quantity. applying this to traveller one may readily observe that given many planets' wide range of environmental conditions there are many niche but large settings where only "certain people" can be profitably, but very profitably, employed. extending the "cash crop" analogy one readily observes that mining work is always unpleasant and often has been assigned to "prisoners" of one stripe or another. and voluntary slave labor may be induced via drug addiction - consider the movie "outland" and the impressment of sailors who were given a ration of free rum every day as part of their salary.
salochin999
SOC-13
That's more or less the opposite of what happened.
It's true the tenant farmers lost their land to the latifundia - they were citizen soldiers at first and as the empire expanded the legionaries gradually came to spend too long away from their farms so ended up borrowing money and losing their farms to money lenders which were then snapped up by the wealthy - but the latifundia were nearly all cash crops not basic foodstuffs.
The latifundia were why Rome had to rely on grain shipments from Sicily, North Africa and Egypt.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cura_Annonae
The citizen now ex-farmers went on the dole in Rome to be entertained by bread and circuses.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bread_and_circuses
Plantation economies can function but they always stagnate because they only have the wealthy driving demand and not a large middle class as well - e.g. north and south USA. It's one of the recurring features of civilization - people get too greedy and forget that if the majority have no money to spend then the economy will grind to a halt.
Of course a stagnant economy can still survive for a long time as long as there isn't a strong external enemy but as soon as there is then it's all over.
oh no, no they don't forget at all. gaining control of all the money has TWO purposes. 1) so you yourself have it, and 2) so everyone else DOESN'T. that way hoi polloi can't compete or rebel effectively. it's the first act of every ruler, to seize all the gold within reach so opposing armies can't be paid.
as for "the economy grinding to a halt" - it doesn't grind to a halt for the ruler. in fact it enhances his personal economy because everyone brings their economy straight to him. like it says in the bible, "do you see a man skilled in his work? he will stand before kings, he will not stand before obscure men." that's because the ruler has all the money and the obscure men don't.
Indeed, I've read complaints made by Southern mechanics who called for limits on the use of slave labor in the trades.
So much for slave labor not being competitive.
The climate argument was always a bit silly in North America, although I imagine when you were comparing Irish slaves and West African slaves in Barbados, it held up a bit more.
As I understand it, the Irish numbers dropped for the simple reason that the English had finally pacified the island, killing or exiling maybe one in ten of its people. The landlord class needed a lot of the rest as farm workers, afterward.
Whereas the various pre colonial West African kingdoms and tribes were frequently at war with one another, so they provided a ready and continuous flow of slaves.
Warfare as a source of slaves is something one finds in many cultures and in many periods of history. I imagine everybody knows this. I hope I don't seem like I am lecturing. Rather, I am looking for possible adventure and setting ideas for Traveller. Any races or worlds that normally capture and enslave enemies?
Maybe a mercenary crew ends up captured and enslaved, and the guys who escaped decide to go back and free their comrades?
A world government that has just gone through a civil war decides to sell supporters of the defeated faction off world, and the PCs' Patron hires the party to track down a friend or relative before auction?
Hunting runaway slaves may be a good adventure possibility for PCs, too.
Patron Zero
SOC-13
Mind as always a sideways observation if I may.
There are many types of slavery beyond the concept of chattel or forced-labor, many persons are either 'enslaved' by the caste of their birth as well as those persons so 'shackled' by the constraints of a religion or belief system.
In some instances the chains are simply more visible but equally in place all the same.
There are many types of slavery beyond the concept of chattel or forced-labor, many persons are either 'enslaved' by the caste of their birth as well as those persons so 'shackled' by the constraints of a religion or belief system.
In some instances the chains are simply more visible but equally in place all the same.
well. in a low-tech economy they are quite viable. in a high-tech economy there would be many impediments to profit.
vargr for sure. as for worlds, indigenous peoples frequently may be targets of slavery. "native vilani unite against your oppressors!" and all that. traveller history states that the ancients deposited many groups of humans in many places, the vilani were only one group.
outstanding. hard to complain to authorities. "they enslaved our company's men!" "well what were they doing that got them captured?" "uh ...."
heh. and on attempting to liberate them, finding the captured men have been converted to their captors' cause, like the christian janisaries who served their moslem lords.
not an adventure I could participate in, but a good one nonetheless.
heh. and charity slavery as well. in the 1870's the streets of new york were filled with orphans and runaways. it was decided that life as a city street rat was too hard on these children and that growing up on a country farm would be good for them. so every year these kids would be rounded up and put on trains to the midwest, where the farmers would line up and bid at auction to "adopt" these extra field hands ....
Condottiere
SOC-14 5K
Unlike Roman galley slaves, I wouldn't really have slaves anywhere near engineering, especially those who are suicidal and/or wanting to take some oppressors with them.
Engineering slaves might be screened carefully, treated well, and when possible chosen from children raised as slaves.
You get an engineer or assistant who won't quit his job and go someplace else. He stays with the craft, only moving if his owner moves him.
Of course there are a lot of possible variables.
Forced labor from occupied countries in WWII often performed sabotage, specially prisonner camp labor. On the other hand, volunteer "colaborators" worked well. Part of V -weapons were assembled at the Dora labor camp that included worker from the Dora-Mitelbau concentration camps. So tyes your vision is possible.
"Home slave" could have slit the troat of their sleeping masters while they sere asleep, but seldom did.
Caste or serf system based on second generation, well indoctrined children of slave could indeed be "soft" slavery.
have fun
Selandia
Realy intresting discussion
IMTU chattel slavery is banned inside the XT and anywhere the Imperium has direct law enforcement authority. Debit slavery is technically legal as is serfdom but both when discovered tend to (dependent on the politics at the time) result in a increased attention from the relevant regulatory authorities. Indentured servitude is permitted with restrictions (no permission required for marriage, may not separate married partners, may pre-repay debit to end arrangement early, may restrict child bearing, provisioning with food, shelter, medical care, contract may not last longer than 12 years, etc).
On the other hand outside the XT, it depends on the treaties made with the Imperium at the time the planet joined and subsequent amendments (which generally restrict the practice more than expands it).
A special case is the marriage trade. Young, unmarried women from poor, low tech worlds are offered the opportunity to immigrate to systems with very skewed male/female ratios for marriage purposes. They assume the debits associated with passage and maintenance at the destination until marriage. Before they marry, the debit must be paid, most often by the husband to be or his family. Some employers will pay part of the cost as a fringe benefit in systems with a particularity skewed gender ratio and difficulty attracting and retaining employees. The Imperium requires that there are an adequate number of eligible partners are present and that the woman is not coerced to pick any specific partner. A few origin systems make these contracts unenforceable unless the agency guarantee both parties receive premarital screening for mental conditions like sociopathy.
The Imperium is more interested in stability and tax collection than rooting out objectionable practices like slavery. Imperial culture is anti-slavery but due to the structure of the polity, its hard to root out. Local planetary cultural mores vary greatly with richer, higher tech level worlds with low to moderate law levels being the most anti-slavery. Some of them offer development aide and grants to less developed worlds in exchange for forbidding slavery.
IMTU chattel slavery is banned inside the XT and anywhere the Imperium has direct law enforcement authority. Debit slavery is technically legal as is serfdom but both when discovered tend to (dependent on the politics at the time) result in a increased attention from the relevant regulatory authorities. Indentured servitude is permitted with restrictions (no permission required for marriage, may not separate married partners, may pre-repay debit to end arrangement early, may restrict child bearing, provisioning with food, shelter, medical care, contract may not last longer than 12 years, etc).
On the other hand outside the XT, it depends on the treaties made with the Imperium at the time the planet joined and subsequent amendments (which generally restrict the practice more than expands it).
A special case is the marriage trade. Young, unmarried women from poor, low tech worlds are offered the opportunity to immigrate to systems with very skewed male/female ratios for marriage purposes. They assume the debits associated with passage and maintenance at the destination until marriage. Before they marry, the debit must be paid, most often by the husband to be or his family. Some employers will pay part of the cost as a fringe benefit in systems with a particularity skewed gender ratio and difficulty attracting and retaining employees. The Imperium requires that there are an adequate number of eligible partners are present and that the woman is not coerced to pick any specific partner. A few origin systems make these contracts unenforceable unless the agency guarantee both parties receive premarital screening for mental conditions like sociopathy.
The Imperium is more interested in stability and tax collection than rooting out objectionable practices like slavery. Imperial culture is anti-slavery but due to the structure of the polity, its hard to root out. Local planetary cultural mores vary greatly with richer, higher tech level worlds with low to moderate law levels being the most anti-slavery. Some of them offer development aide and grants to less developed worlds in exchange for forbidding slavery.
epicenter00
SOC-13
You're correct the ones in Italica did make other cash crops for the most part and that Rome was dependent on grain from Sicily and North Africa early on and Egypt later but...
The grain from places like North Africa ... were grown on Latifundia there.
Pliny comments that North Africa was pretty much divided between like six guys who ran latifundia there. This was pretty late in Roman history (Nero) but even earlier, after the Roman conquest of Carthage they divided up the land for things like that.
There are some peculiar types of slaves I he thought about who would make a good addition to a society flavor for the players to encounter.
Slaves kids growing in educated in quite luxurious conditions (praying god in a gilded monastery would do fine), but destined to be sacrificed one way or another (from heart ripping to being sent into a place to meet god).
Slaves grown to harvest as replacement parts for their master (clones probably). That would need a quite specific medicine advancement level (able to swap parts, but needing to take them from compatible living beings).
Slaves as chattel, being kept for luxury consumption. With the added benefit that they can even raise themselves. A planet inhabited by chattel-slaves and the masters living in a forbidden city harvesting one from time to time (because they generate some biological substance that the masters are unable to produce).
Slaves as parts of machines. Combining a vehicle (or whatever) with a living being solely dedicated to its functioning (hypertrophied in some parts and maimed in some others). Imagine, for exemple, some kind of assembly line in a factory with peoples embedded in their workplace, with only the limbs they need to make their job.
I am not sure we are still speaking of our old terran slavery here, but the future is another place.
Slaves kids growing in educated in quite luxurious conditions (praying god in a gilded monastery would do fine), but destined to be sacrificed one way or another (from heart ripping to being sent into a place to meet god).
Slaves grown to harvest as replacement parts for their master (clones probably). That would need a quite specific medicine advancement level (able to swap parts, but needing to take them from compatible living beings).
Slaves as chattel, being kept for luxury consumption. With the added benefit that they can even raise themselves. A planet inhabited by chattel-slaves and the masters living in a forbidden city harvesting one from time to time (because they generate some biological substance that the masters are unable to produce).
Slaves as parts of machines. Combining a vehicle (or whatever) with a living being solely dedicated to its functioning (hypertrophied in some parts and maimed in some others). Imagine, for exemple, some kind of assembly line in a factory with peoples embedded in their workplace, with only the limbs they need to make their job.
I am not sure we are still speaking of our old terran slavery here, but the future is another place.
kilemall
SOC-14 5K
A bit of color/way to quickly incorporate slavery of either the total ownership or 'rental' kind-
if you are Soc 3- you are chattel of whatever flavor IYTU.
More interesting- if you have Soc 3-, at chargen you or your contract is 'sold' to whatever service (roll draft, no choice), if the character gets +1 Soc the character earned their way out of bondage through superior service.
I seem to recall there was another "slave thread" from either last year or the year before last. I think it was called "Slavery in spaaaace...." or something like that.
There was one slave scenario we did with one of my old groups, which I thought was just plain stupid and silly, which involved a kidnapped princess and our attempt to save her before she was ... "defiled", so to speak. The guy running the scenario let things get way out of hand in a brothel, at which point in time I intentionally tossed a grenade into the armory.
Fireworks ensued. The kind that take out armies and bring down buildings. I'm all for adult themes in games, but this guy really didn't understand the difference between mature and tawdry. I think it was the last time we let him run a game, and I seem to recall that he wasn't often asked back to any gaming sessions.
The thing about slavery in space, as per the other thread, is that with the advent of automation slavery becomes an anachronism except for worlds that cannot afford robots of anykind, or perhaps for worlds that have little contact with other civilizations, but through some quirk of fate have starship technology, and thus raid worlds for imported labor.
Just my take.
Slavery has been one of the driving forces in my long running Beyond campaign. A great deal is generated by one of an aggressive local empire's merchant fleets have been decimated by piracy. They've replaced crew with foreign crews pressed ganged by their naval units or bought from one of the big slaver combines. The sex trade and manual fuels little of the slave trade in MTU. There is a trade in exotic slaves (one of my NPC's is a young female Aslan who is a former slave) and some bizarre cross species hybridization experiments.
I think what you mean is that many jobs done by human beings become anachronistic with the advent of automation. It's just easier to lay off obsoleted workers hired for wages than to liquidate slaves. Well, unless another market exists, manumission is easy, or you are able to kill all the slaves.