Small craft cabin on a budget

[Carlobrand]

The small craft cabin per CT: 2 dTons, Cr50,000. The stateroom per CT: 4 dTons, Cr500,000. How do we shave costs to bring the small craft cabin within budget?

To begin with, Cr50,000 is a lot of money. Its not clear what you're paying for that's worth so much. Cr500,000 is a whole lotta money, even harder to figure out. Easiest is get rid of the trim and furnishings: simple cot instead of a nice bed, no other furnishings, no wall decorations or paint, no flooring, cheap lighting, no computer terminal or other entertainment system. You can reduce life support: instead of a recycling system, maybe an LO2 system or a chemical O2 generator and chemical CO2 scrubbers. Get rid of the plumbing, carry enough bottled water for the trip and maybe a chemical toilet instead of a regular toilet. Get rid of artificial gravity? That gets complicated: you'd have to put belts on the cot, orient the room so the drive is "down", do something other than a chemical toilet, and so forth. How else could we justify the cost difference between a small craft cabin and a stateroom?

 

[AnotherDilbert]

There is no good reason given, or even hinted at. Both staterooms and cabins provide life-support for two people.

Internal gravity is presumably part of the hull. Gravity is provided in the entire ship, regardless of how many staterooms (or drives) are included (even zero). Even the ubiquitous X-Boat has internal gravity without an M-drive.


I have no idea why a stateroom should cost MCr 0.5... I hope we don't assume Cr 450 000 worth of wall-paper.

 

[warwizard]

If you will look at world tamer's handbook, it gives low cost berthing in the cargo hold PP. 70 paragraph titled getting there.
"Colonists are carried in a portion of the cargo hold fitted with half bunks each half bunk displaces 7 m3 (1/2 DT) weighs 250 KG (1/4mt) and costs CR25." for 1 person and personal possessions.
Also T4's FF&S has table 207 Accomodations on PP. 111 choice of seats at 1.5m3, 2.5m3, 3.5 m3 and 7 m3 all mass 20kg and cost CR100 for the first 3, or CR200 for the biggest seat. the bunks are listed as well at double the half bunk above, but for two people.
Sanatary facilities 3.5m3 50kg, CR100
small stateroom and std stateroom prices are fixed at CR40,000, and CR100,000.

 

[Condottiere]

Acceleration factor one, hammock, oxygen candle, water bottle(s), bucket.

 

[mike wightman]

You need a carbon dioxide scrubber too.

 

[kilemall]

I’d limit it’s habitability to just a few days then start imposing additional life support costs, possibly psych issues for non-service passengers, etc.

 

[Grav_Moped]

I’d limit it’s habitability to just a few days then start imposing additional life support costs, possibly psych issues for non-service passengers, etc.

This.

Remember, small craft were originally interface craft for starships (any other use being entirely secondary, and almost always outside the scenario's scope). It's not a space in which to spend a week, let alone live in for every other week indefinitely (canon jump cadence of twice per month).

The description strongly implies that it includes an acceleration couch that doubles as a bed.

While it takes the same space as a half-stateroom (which was explicitly allowed in LBB5), it's obviously inferior in some respects. I'd assume life support endurance is a key element of this. Probably similar to those of standard starship staterooms, but normally subsumed into the life support cost on the carrying vessel of the small-craft's crew (that is, you're already paying for your shuttle pilot's life support when you restock his stateroom in the ship's crew quarters).

Just something they didn't detail because it was mostly off-screen from the players' perspective.

 

[Condottiere]

For a passenger, there's not much difference in spending a week jumping, and a week in space.

So, in terms of comfort, the amount of facilities and volume allocated gets the same result.

 

[kilemall]

For a passenger, there's not much difference in spending a week jumping, and a week in space.

So, in terms of comfort, the amount of facilities and volume allocated gets the same result.

It shouldn’t though. Cut out galleys, common areas and full freshers for one.

The half stateroom is for service members situations hence my psych difference, and much lower cost so literally should be less liner and more Pullman bed on the aisle way accommodations.

And on a Pullman train you could walk around, get lunch at a Harvey House etc.

That goes for intentional non-starships plying interplanetary lanes. They should be sporting full staterooms if it’s more then a 72 hour trip, arguably 24-48 hours.

 

[casquilho]

Pure Opinion: I have always disliked the way it felt like every edition of Traveller tried to find the absolute minimum amount of space they could have for people before they went stir crazy and killed each other. I do not understand, if you do not want reasonable amounts of space for people, why not change your setting to where the whole crew goes into cryosleep that way each crew and passenger would be in a small coffin sized box?

 

[warwizard]

T5 actually addresses that directly. The going crazy bit I mean.

 

[aramis]

The small craft cabin per CT: 2 dTons, Cr50,000. The stateroom per CT: 4 dTons, Cr500,000. How do we shave costs to bring the small craft cabin within budget?

To begin with, Cr50,000 is a lot of money. Its not clear what you're paying for that's worth so much. Cr500,000 is a whole lotta money, even harder to figure out. Easiest is get rid of the trim and furnishings: simple cot instead of a nice bed, no other furnishings, no wall decorations or paint, no flooring, cheap lighting, no computer terminal or other entertainment system. You can reduce life support: instead of a recycling system, maybe an LO2 system or a chemical O2 generator and chemical CO2 scrubbers. Get rid of the plumbing, carry enough bottled water for the trip and maybe a chemical toilet instead of a regular toilet. Get rid of artificial gravity? That gets complicated: you'd have to put belts on the cot, orient the room so the drive is "down", do something other than a chemical toilet, and so forth. How else could we justify the cost difference between a small craft cabin and a stateroom?

Let's consider what's canonical to a KCr500 one:
bunk, converts to couch. Second bunk, folds up. Fresher unit. Entertainment/computer console, share of Fresher bank, share of Life Support equipment, walls, lights, stowage lockers, rescue ball, chair for working at the terminal.
Rescue balls are not expensive.
The folding bunks/hide-a-beds are not cheap; hide-a-bed couches are about double the cost of a similar bed; murphy beds are about 10× a similar standing bed. Also, SCCs only hold two by hot bunking.
The LS and fresher are probably most of the cost of the SCC.
The entertainment/computer terminal needs to be hardened suitable for jump. I doubt the SCC does.
I expect the fresher for a SR includes a shower, the SCC probably is just a commode and sink.
I expect the SR includes recycle, the SCC doesn't, hence its lesser time.

 

[Grav_Moped]

Pure Opinion: I have always disliked the way it felt like every edition of Traveller tried to find the absolute minimum amount of space they could have for people before they went stir crazy and killed each other. I do not understand, if you do not want reasonable amounts of space for people, why not change your setting to where the whole crew goes into cryosleep that way each crew and passenger would be in a small coffin sized box?

It can be (hence, low berths). The casualty rate is why you don't do that (and that's in part why there is one).

The basic problem is that Traveller uses volume rather than mass as a basis for everything. Otherwise, you could easily have vast internal inhabited spaces because air doesn't weigh much... but not with these rules. It's a game, and there's a tendency in games to push rules to the breaking point for any slight advantage.

 

[Grav_Moped]

it felt like every edition of Traveller tried to find the absolute minimum amount of space they could have for people before they went stir crazy and killed each other.

It's a "press your luck" type game mechanic. They're not going to (for the most part) say that you can't go full sardine-can, but you'll risk escalating penalties if you try it.

On a related note, that's one thing that always struck me about the original LBB2 starship construction rules paradigm -- it was inherently self-limiting. The reason Jump-6 was the upper limit wasn't because of an arbitrary TL limit, it was because you simply couldn't fit the drives and fuel for anything more into a hull. (Then came drop tanks and so on...)

 

[MichaelSTee]

I dislike the $500k cost for staterooms. I make it $50k and have life support as a separate thing that must be installed. See Gurps Space for 3e for general idea. Life support supports a certain number of man-days before replenishment.

 

[Condottiere]

Why is it half a million, and what are you getting for it?

 

[McPerth]

That's version dependent, but see that in MT, life support is paid aside, and yet they cost the same...

 

[kilemall]

Big clue, the original life support cost was for two weeks. The passengers at least were just onboard for a week. There is a margin built in. I don’t know that the original intent was to cover for stranded ships, but looks like a good place to roll with RAW assuming.

 

[bookwyrm]

From what I understand, Small Cabins are for in system travel between planets or other places of interest in a system. They are sufficient for keeping one person comfortable during the trip.

Now then, for my T20 spiel.

The Small Cabin in T20 can keep one person comfortable for a journey, and could hot bunk 2 if necessary or in an emergency, but it isn't specified that it's only for in system travel. Also, a Fresher isn't included. It is mentioned that one Fresher can serve up to 10 Small Cabins.

Personally, I consider a Small Cabin or Stateroom could be placed in a space or star ship depending on what the ship is going to be used for. Staterooms are great for getting income from High Passengers and doubling up with Middle Passengers, while crew travel in comfort. I built some Tramp Traders that only had Small Cabins for that dark & cramped stuffed like sardines feeling, only desperate Mid Passengers need apply for travel while the crew might look like trouble and a little scruffy, and a few with a mix of SC's & SR's with the 2 areas separate from each other.

 

[kilemall]

From what I understand, Small Cabins are for in system travel between planets or other places of interest in a system. They are sufficient for keeping one person comfortable during the trip.

Now then, for my T20 spiel.

The Small Cabin in T20 can keep one person comfortable for a journey, and could hot bunk 2 if necessary or in an emergency, but it isn't specified that it's only for in system travel. Also, a Fresher isn't included. It is mentioned that one Fresher can serve up to 10 Small Cabins.

Personally, I consider a Small Cabin or Stateroom could be placed in a space or star ship depending on what the ship is going to be used for. Staterooms are great for getting income from High Passengers and doubling up with Middle Passengers, while crew travel in comfort. I built some Tramp Traders that only had Small Cabins for that dark & cramped stuffed like sardines feeling, only desperate Mid Passengers need apply for travel while the crew might look like trouble and a little scruffy, and a few with a mix of SC's & SR's with the 2 areas separate from each other.

Go that route, real opportunity to lay on SOC limits on what tickets you can buy. Can’t have the peasants disrupting the serenity of Baron von Bigshot.

A few trips on Steerage Passage with a character that has TAS or is wealthy may motivate to get that SOC increased.