Small Ships/Big Ships Redux
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Simon Jester
SOC-12
Vote: No Displacement Limit
Justification: I want to be able to build anything from a scout ship to a battlestation big enough to make the Death Star look like a whiffleball. No, my players will never make enough money or pull off a big enough stunt to gain them anything larger than perhaps a Gazelle-class CE, but _I_ want to have some fun, too, and I _like_ creating all sorts of ships. I've pretty much ignored the upper limit guidelines anyway.
Simon Jester
Justification: I want to be able to build anything from a scout ship to a battlestation big enough to make the Death Star look like a whiffleball. No, my players will never make enough money or pull off a big enough stunt to gain them anything larger than perhaps a Gazelle-class CE, but _I_ want to have some fun, too, and I _like_ creating all sorts of ships. I've pretty much ignored the upper limit guidelines anyway.
Simon Jester
RabidVargr
SOC-13
Limits? LIMITS? We don need no stinkin limits!
RV
RV
Well, that has more to do with the scale of the battle than with the size of the ships. A player-controlled Merc Cruiser isn't very impressive when each side has a half dozen 25,000 dton cruisers, but it's also not very impressive when each size has 150 1,000 dton light combat ships either.
Liam Devlin
SOC-14 5K
Option 3, preferred. For the truly successful group, a larger ship to run is more a challenge. and well run 5ktn freighter armed, etc, with freight and cargo pods can A)
make a decent profit
b) be a nasty surprise for the Vargr/ er Menace from the Core, general pirates & such.
c) takes lots of down time for those adventures you saddle on em "ashore/dirtside"
make a decent profit
b) be a nasty surprise for the Vargr/ er Menace from the Core, general pirates & such.
c) takes lots of down time for those adventures you saddle on em "ashore/dirtside"
tigger1tom
SOC-6
I don't like limitations either. It doesn't matter that your players or characters might not ever be able to own/build/operate a mega ship, npc's and others would be able to, and, you never know, dreams could come true, nothing should be impossible, improbable, not impossible.
I don;t like "hard line" limitations imposed by fiat (or any other anyone else for that matter)
Howeverthere are a lot of things to take into consideration.
The CT rules on ship design mean that very large cargo ships make more money than small ones, unless there is some countervailling factor, all the mains should have very large cargo ships continually streaming though them (100k plus tons)
Ditto for combat ships - If the biggest ship in your fleet is bigger than the biggest ship in their fleet, then other things being equal, you kick butt.
However we liked a starwars feel to our CT so, whilst keeping the rules exactly as written, I imposed an "wear" factor that went up with larger and larger ships (I origionally said it was do to a jump tide effect based on the size of the ship - It doesn;t really hold up but was good enough)
This led to large bulk freighters becoming uneconomic at about 4kt (which is still a prett big ship to look at).
Military ships can "afford" this maintainance overhead - but it means that admirals are likely to send cruisers to investigate almost evrything and keep his heavy metal in one spot unless it is actually needed. ie battleships spend 90% plus of their time tied up in port with sailors swarming over them keeping them working.
My players spent the vast bulk of their time in craft of the 100-400 ton range, a little on liners/merchies of a couple of kt. The ships had to be small enough that a party with minimal NPC support could run the ship entirely - otherwise they were employers and their morals had to be acceptable to too large a group. Also once you start employing people, they need to have a long term plan (you can't just scoot off following an adventure hook)
I would have said that the "dream" ship that they want to get their hands on would be either a 400t Gazelle or a 400t Merchie depending on their desires - that's a big target to aim for without having to wave multi kt ships at them.
Howeverthere are a lot of things to take into consideration.
The CT rules on ship design mean that very large cargo ships make more money than small ones, unless there is some countervailling factor, all the mains should have very large cargo ships continually streaming though them (100k plus tons)
Ditto for combat ships - If the biggest ship in your fleet is bigger than the biggest ship in their fleet, then other things being equal, you kick butt.
However we liked a starwars feel to our CT so, whilst keeping the rules exactly as written, I imposed an "wear" factor that went up with larger and larger ships (I origionally said it was do to a jump tide effect based on the size of the ship - It doesn;t really hold up but was good enough)
This led to large bulk freighters becoming uneconomic at about 4kt (which is still a prett big ship to look at).
Military ships can "afford" this maintainance overhead - but it means that admirals are likely to send cruisers to investigate almost evrything and keep his heavy metal in one spot unless it is actually needed. ie battleships spend 90% plus of their time tied up in port with sailors swarming over them keeping them working.
My players spent the vast bulk of their time in craft of the 100-400 ton range, a little on liners/merchies of a couple of kt. The ships had to be small enough that a party with minimal NPC support could run the ship entirely - otherwise they were employers and their morals had to be acceptable to too large a group. Also once you start employing people, they need to have a long term plan (you can't just scoot off following an adventure hook)
I would have said that the "dream" ship that they want to get their hands on would be either a 400t Gazelle or a 400t Merchie depending on their desires - that's a big target to aim for without having to wave multi kt ships at them.
Liam Devlin
SOC-14 5K
Any of you fellows check out
www.downport.com/ Freelance Traveller?
There's a bunch of stuff there on CT traveller merchanting/ Shipyard stuff by Ken Pick (stretching hulls an extra 100dtns for a cargo even for small 200/ 400 dtn ships. And cargo pods for strap on cargoes (with a Jay drive improvement of course to balance it out.)for more profitability.
www.downport.com/ Freelance Traveller?
There's a bunch of stuff there on CT traveller merchanting/ Shipyard stuff by Ken Pick (stretching hulls an extra 100dtns for a cargo even for small 200/ 400 dtn ships. And cargo pods for strap on cargoes (with a Jay drive improvement of course to balance it out.)for more profitability.
Hm...as usual, Chris has a blind spot, in that he thinks a 5,000 dton limit would somehow solve his problems.
The problem with PC ships is quite simply one of scale. Based on canonical military budgets, there's somewhere upwards 10 million dtons of military shipping in the Marches. You could put a squadron of 5 1,000 dton escorts in every system in the Marches, and still have 8 million dtons left for your major fleets. If piracy hasn't been obliterated, it's because the 3I doesn't care, not because it can't do it.
Furthermore, in terms of 'credible threat': an armed free trader is not a credible threat to any warship larger than a fighter, in any version of Traveller. In order to make armed merchants make sense, warships need to use fundamentally the same drives, armor, and weapons as are used by civilian ships.
This can actually be accomplished with High Guard. Just set the max TL to 11, for, say, the Interstellar Wars period. This won't significantly impact the capabilities of traders (a far trader remains J2/M1, no armor, Mod/2 computer), but will substantially reduce the power of warships (warships are M2, Mod/5 computer, instead of M6, Mod/9 computer, and probably have much less armor). Suddenly, armed merchants are relevant.
The problem with PC ships is quite simply one of scale. Based on canonical military budgets, there's somewhere upwards 10 million dtons of military shipping in the Marches. You could put a squadron of 5 1,000 dton escorts in every system in the Marches, and still have 8 million dtons left for your major fleets. If piracy hasn't been obliterated, it's because the 3I doesn't care, not because it can't do it.
Furthermore, in terms of 'credible threat': an armed free trader is not a credible threat to any warship larger than a fighter, in any version of Traveller. In order to make armed merchants make sense, warships need to use fundamentally the same drives, armor, and weapons as are used by civilian ships.
This can actually be accomplished with High Guard. Just set the max TL to 11, for, say, the Interstellar Wars period. This won't significantly impact the capabilities of traders (a far trader remains J2/M1, no armor, Mod/2 computer), but will substantially reduce the power of warships (warships are M2, Mod/5 computer, instead of M6, Mod/9 computer, and probably have much less armor). Suddenly, armed merchants are relevant.
I'm 'smug', as you put it, because we've rehashed this same argument a half dozen times.
An armed trader is not relevant against 100,000 dtons of ship. It doesn't matter whether that's a single 100,000 dton cruiser, or 100 1,000 dton warships. If you want PC ships to be relevant, you need to chop fleet sizes, not individual ship sizes (this is relevant to the IW period because fleet sizes were almost certainly smaller then). Of course, if you chop fleet sizes, ship sizes will pretty naturally shrink, so you may accomplish a universe where 5,000 dtons is a big warship without actually altering the ship design rules at all.
An armed trader is not relevant against 100,000 dtons of ship. It doesn't matter whether that's a single 100,000 dton cruiser, or 100 1,000 dton warships. If you want PC ships to be relevant, you need to chop fleet sizes, not individual ship sizes (this is relevant to the IW period because fleet sizes were almost certainly smaller then). Of course, if you chop fleet sizes, ship sizes will pretty naturally shrink, so you may accomplish a universe where 5,000 dtons is a big warship without actually altering the ship design rules at all.
Spacehand Arioch
SOC-8
My thoughts on the ship size question is that there should be 5000+ ton ships but the vast majority would be owned or operated by large megacorporations or planetary/Imperial Navies.
I look at it this way. The wet navies of our world are primarily govt/company owned. There are not many super-tankers or submarines owned by individuals.
Do battleships patrol the coast and inspect ship traffic? No, they leave that to the coast guard who uses smaller ships to carry our those duties. The battleships have different priorities like national security and war operations.
I look at it this way. The wet navies of our world are primarily govt/company owned. There are not many super-tankers or submarines owned by individuals.
Do battleships patrol the coast and inspect ship traffic? No, they leave that to the coast guard who uses smaller ships to carry our those duties. The battleships have different priorities like national security and war operations.
Tom Schoene
SOC-12
Actually, they do (well, warships do; there are no battleships anymore). The USN has a number of warhips used largely for drug interdiction operations, including AEGIS cruisers. And we've been patrolling and inspecting ships in the Persian Gulf for over a decade. In the past year or so, the USN and allied navies have also been patrolling areas such as the Strait of Malacca and the east coast of Africa. Piracy suppression is increasingly regarded as part of national security efforts, especially these days where piracy and terrorism may overlap.
Liam Devlin
SOC-14 5K
As a casual observer (and having graded elsewhere both Thrash & Anthony in stars), from the Tne HIC let me weigh this in. (The 5ktn limit).
The TNe universe (shortlived under GDW now carried on elsewhere)showed a prediliction for Ships amassing up to 5ktns. (World Builders HB, ie, with a 2ktn TI liner/ 3 ktn Tukera Liner/ and an AH hercules 5ktn bulk freighter). Now the RC "navy" with its clippers could dress out (ClassII's at 2050dtns and still J-2/ Class III's could amass higher up to 3050 and J-2, Class IV's with Hiver supplied/ relic engines could amass up towards 4800dtns, J-2.) The Coalitions' DD's Fusilier/Lancer classes amounted to 6ktns ( 1 ktn being a module bay for 1ktns of "extras" in modular compaents. The "Leviathan Troop ASLT ships dressed out at 10ktns.
It seemed that for ships on the TNE, 10ktn at TL-12 was going to be the limit-speculated by Moi (and a handful of other heretics), was what on earth were they going to do to relic era ships from Solee after the war? some upwards of 30ktn in size? Discard them?
Looks like they(under DN's guidance) headed for the smaller ship (dtn-wise) Navy.
Ahh but the poll said if we could set the level for ships in the universe.
I like big ships, but reality is can every PE/ Polity Hi pop world afford them? No, they cannot.
By afford I mean man, maintain, train with, etc.
I like big ships, but I'm not giving a Light cruiser of 15-30ktns to a player unless he's the flag man in a battle. My players knew that..capture one, sure, keep it? They didn't have deep enough pockets after they shot the heck out of it! They put a prize crew on her and ran it home for whatever prize money they could (limping at J-1 from its former J-4).
Thats why I took Option 3 in this poll. Navies, big corporations can field the budgets (and the planets they derive from), not players. I don't strat em out on a 5ktn ship..they gotta EARN that puppy (after I've put em through Nine layers of Heck to boot.)
In your TU, do as thy wilt. Now go forth and do great things!
The TNe universe (shortlived under GDW now carried on elsewhere)showed a prediliction for Ships amassing up to 5ktns. (World Builders HB, ie, with a 2ktn TI liner/ 3 ktn Tukera Liner/ and an AH hercules 5ktn bulk freighter). Now the RC "navy" with its clippers could dress out (ClassII's at 2050dtns and still J-2/ Class III's could amass higher up to 3050 and J-2, Class IV's with Hiver supplied/ relic engines could amass up towards 4800dtns, J-2.) The Coalitions' DD's Fusilier/Lancer classes amounted to 6ktns ( 1 ktn being a module bay for 1ktns of "extras" in modular compaents. The "Leviathan Troop ASLT ships dressed out at 10ktns.
It seemed that for ships on the TNE, 10ktn at TL-12 was going to be the limit-speculated by Moi (and a handful of other heretics), was what on earth were they going to do to relic era ships from Solee after the war? some upwards of 30ktn in size? Discard them?
Looks like they(under DN's guidance) headed for the smaller ship (dtn-wise) Navy.
Ahh but the poll said if we could set the level for ships in the universe.
I like big ships, but reality is can every PE/ Polity Hi pop world afford them? No, they cannot.
By afford I mean man, maintain, train with, etc.
I like big ships, but I'm not giving a Light cruiser of 15-30ktns to a player unless he's the flag man in a battle. My players knew that..capture one, sure, keep it? They didn't have deep enough pockets after they shot the heck out of it! They put a prize crew on her and ran it home for whatever prize money they could (limping at J-1 from its former J-4).
Thats why I took Option 3 in this poll. Navies, big corporations can field the budgets (and the planets they derive from), not players. I don't strat em out on a 5ktn ship..they gotta EARN that puppy (after I've put em through Nine layers of Heck to boot.)
In your TU, do as thy wilt. Now go forth and do great things!
Hm...actually, your odds of escaping are almost certainly better against the 100,000 dton warship, if you scatter it can't chase down everyone. Depending on your ruleset, I'm not convinced that the thousand privateers can't hurt the capital ships.
That's an admirable goal. In order to make that rational, the first requirement is that the Imperium can't be everywhere at once -- if it can, you can always yell for help instead of having your own weaponry. Limiting ship size doesn't really affect this issue, a 5,000 dton warship is plenty to chase off any pirate which the weapons on an armed merchant would be of any use against. If the Imperium has a small number of big ships, it can't be everywhere at once, because it doesn't have enough ships. If the Imperium has a large number of small ships, it _can_ be everywhere at once.
It's true that 'big ships imply big fleets'. Unfortunately, the reverse is not true; small ships do not imply small fleets.
If you cut naval budgets by a lot somehow, so the total military shipping of the Marches is, say, 500,000 dtons, from a PC perspective it's probably better if this consists of 4 fleets (consisting of a 50,000 dton cruiser plus another 50,000 dtons of escorts) plus 100,000 dtons of mixed ships than if the total military shipping is 500,000 dtons of mixed ships.
If you cut naval budgets by a lot somehow, so the total military shipping of the Marches is, say, 500,000 dtons, from a PC perspective it's probably better if this consists of 4 fleets (consisting of a 50,000 dton cruiser plus another 50,000 dtons of escorts) plus 100,000 dtons of mixed ships than if the total military shipping is 500,000 dtons of mixed ships.
