So, who actually builds corsairs?

[pendragonman]

Historically, privateers were sometimes built to order, but the purchaser often already had a Letter of Mark in possession. Otherwise, any obsolete small warship can make an excellent life as a corsair.

From the Traveller perspective, aren't the corsairs purpose built by the Vargr? An actual "government policy", such as the Vargr government has overriding policies, of raiding Imperial border trade areas?

 

[wbyrd]

Historically, privateers were sometimes built to order, but the purchaser often already had a Letter of Mark in possession. Otherwise, any obsolete small warship can make an excellent life as a corsair.

From the Traveller perspective, aren't the corsairs purpose built by the Vargr? An actual "government policy", such as the Vargr government has overriding policies, of raiding Imperial border trade areas?

I imagine not only the Vargr, but the Imprium, the Aslan, and the Zhodanni build them.....while the Vargr might be more open about it.. if the Imperium, discovered a ship yard was building Ships specifically for raiding purposes that ship yard would be a high priority for the lads over in "Dirty Tricks" especially if they traced a number of captured ships back to that yard.

The ship yard might experience a string of accidents, sabotage, or out right attack if the Offended parties had the firepower to launch a fast raid by rouge elements of the fleet, or hired mercenaries. A seemingly innocent merchantman might suddenly unleash a salvo of nukes and jump out of system..

.or a corsair built by the shipyard might come in for repairs..then drop a platoon of battle dress mercs out the cargo hatches to destroy the facilities,and point defenses, and make their escape on a second ship docked nearby. for added effect they could detonate a few stolen, or black market nukes they "found laying around" and hid in the cargo hold to cover their escape....even if they were captured the mercs might not even know who hired them to attack the station....and paid them enough to risk such a dangerous operation.

 

[Patron Zero]

I would tend to believe that more than just a few retired military vessels from the various navies of the Imperium and other bordering 'nations' end up returning to 'duty' operating as corsairs.

Removing the guns (or turrets) from a moth-balled or 'condemned' ships doesn't guarantee said vessel won't grow new teeth under the nurturing care of less than scrupulous new owners.

 

[Ulsyus]

Wouldn't the "Where" of where they're build depend on the number that were required or wanted? That'd make it an economically driven activity. If there's not much need then corsair vessels would be more likely to be modified ships rather than buit-from-the-keel-up things. Even naval commerce raiders, sent into an enemy's territory would be better off as outright combatants to give them the best opportunity to survive.

 

[Carlobrand]

Simple standover tactics really?

Just who makes them and how would still need a bit of a macroeconomics perspective wouldn't it? How well are the IN and local security forces equipped to patrol and make safe the spacelanes?

Well, there are a number of possibilities:

1. They're constructed on order by Vargr or Sword Worlder shipyards, neither party having any real qualm about selling pirate vessels to the organized crime cartels that plague the Imperium.

2. Given that large bay and clamshell doors, they were originally pocket carriers, designed to carry a squadron of 10 dT fighters for anti-privateer patrol in wartime. The ship's original boat complement consisted of ten 10 dT fighters and a 50dT mixed purpose cutter, with 10 dT reserved for cargo. The ten staterooms originally served a naval crew of 16: pilot/captain, navigator/XO, medic, chief engineer and assistant engineer, lead pilot and 9 fighter pilots, and one boat pilot, with the CO, XO, chief engineer and lead pilot getting private rooms while the other pilots, the assistant engineer and medic double-berthed. (My math says Book-2 requires 2 engineers for this ship, not 3, and while pirates may eschew a medic, the rules call for one and a warship should probably carry one.) They're either retired Imperial ships, the fighters and cutter removed and the ships sold at auction after the Fourth Frontier War, or they're operational designs that the Sword Worlders use, and the Sword Worlders sell them (sans boats) to underworld interests for cash and a chance to make trouble for the Imperium.

 

[rancke]

The ship's original boat complement consisted of ten 10 dT fighters and a 50dT mixed purpose cutter, with 10 dT reserved for cargo.

The Corsair has a 310T cargo hold? (IIRC small craft are carried at 200% of tonnage unless carried in customized bays (I forget the correct term)). Note that I can't remember where I saw that rule.


Hans

 

[Carlobrand]

The Corsair has a 310T cargo hold? (IIRC small craft are carried at 200% of tonnage unless carried in customized bays (I forget the correct term)). Note that I can't remember where I saw that rule.


Hans

Not in CT.

Book 2: "Ship's Vehicles: A ship may have one or more subordinate vehicles specified as part of the ship's equipment, and tonnage may be devoted to the permanent stowage or hangarage of the vehicles. The vehicles list indicates those vehicles and small craft commonly available. ... Small craft are covered later in this chapter. When carried on a ship, tonnage sufficient to hold them must be allocated."

Book 5: "Small Craft: Various non-starships (such as pinnaces, cutters, ship's boats, shuttles, lifeboats, and fighters) are detailed in the section on small craft. Small craft are carried at their own tonnage on ships 1000 tons and under; they require tonnage equal to 130% of their mass within the hull of larger ships."

No rule about customized bays, and in any event there's no reason not to take the Corsair bay as a customized bay that's been reconfigured for cargo storage.

 

[rancke]

Not in CT.

OK, my mistake.


Hans

 

[Ulsyus]

... they were originally pocket carriers, designed to carry a squadron of 10 dT fighters for anti-privateer patrol in wartime. The ship's original boat complement consisted of ten 10 dT fighters and a 50dT mixed purpose cutter, with 10 dT reserved for cargo...

Is there a vessel like this already designed, or this just your take on things?

Also, with 10dT only for cargo, are these pirates taking the target ship in it's entirety, or hoping to just pinch some high-value-low-volume cargo?

 

[aramis]

Not in CT.

Book 2: "Ship's Vehicles: A ship may have one or more subordinate vehicles specified as part of the ship's equipment, and tonnage may be devoted to the permanent stowage or hangarage of the vehicles. The vehicles list indicates those vehicles and small craft commonly available. ... Small craft are covered later in this chapter. When carried on a ship, tonnage sufficient to hold them must be allocated."

Book 5: "Small Craft: Various non-starships (such as pinnaces, cutters, ship's boats, shuttles, lifeboats, and fighters) are detailed in the section on small craft. Small craft are carried at their own tonnage on ships 1000 tons and under; they require tonnage equal to 130% of their mass within the hull of larger ships."

No rule about customized bays, and in any event there's no reason not to take the Corsair bay as a customized bay that's been reconfigured for cargo storage.

You missed a chunk, the chunk which Hans is remembering:

Bk5, page 30:

Empty weapons bays may be put to a variety of uses, such as holding small craft (airlrafts, ATVs, fighters, pinnaces, etc), or storing cargo. Vehicles and craft may be carried in otherwise unused bays at 50% wastage (100 tons of bay holds 50 tons of vehicle or craft). A bay may launch one craft per turn.​

 

[aramis]

Is there a vessel like this already designed, or this just your take on things?

Also, with 10dT only for cargo, are these pirates taking the target ship in it's entirety, or hoping to just pinch some high-value-low-volume cargo?

The 10Td fighter is a CT standard design. Many MANY people noticed that the only way to maximize firepower under Bk2 was to go carrier.

 

[Ulsyus]

The 10Td fighter is a CT standard design. Many MANY people noticed that the only way to maximize firepower under Bk2 was to go carrier.

No, not the fighter, the carrier that Carl referred to

 

[Carlobrand]

You missed a chunk, the chunk which Hans is remembering:

Bk5, page 30:

Empty weapons bays may be put to a variety of uses, such as holding small craft (airlrafts, ATVs, fighters, pinnaces, etc), or storing cargo. Vehicles and craft may be carried in otherwise unused bays at 50% wastage (100 tons of bay holds 50 tons of vehicle or craft). A bay may launch one craft per turn.​

Oh, right, the 50 dT and 100 dT weapons bay bit. I imagine that same logic would apply to cargo bays being put to use holding vehicles and craft, inasmuch as the vehicles/craft were not designed specifically to fit the space nor the space to fit those vehicles/craft. That has unfortunate implications for my old idea of taking subsidized merchants and converting them to auxiliary carriers in wartime, unless of course I design a special class of fighter specific to the subsidized merchant.

However, in this case we're doing the reverse: we're speculating on what previous life the Corsair had, and I offer the possibility that it was originally a pocket carrier. The bay therefore carried boats designed and intended to fit the bay, and it was only converted to cargo use afterward.

 

[rancke]

However, in this case we're doing the reverse: we're speculating on what previous life the Corsair had, and I offer the possibility that it was originally a pocket carrier. The bay therefore carried boats designed and intended to fit the bay, and it was only converted to cargo use afterward.

Or cargo bays function differently from empty weapon bays. I'm not quite sure how they can, but that appears to be what the rules say.


Hans

 

[Ulsyus]

However, in this case we're doing the reverse: we're speculating on what previous life the Corsair had, and I offer the possibility that it was originally a pocket carrier. The bay therefore carried boats designed and intended to fit the bay, and it was only converted to cargo use afterward.

So was there a pocket carrier in old canon, designed or referred to, or is this just aching to be designed and put out there to the detriment of small-scale trading concerns?

 

[aramis]

No, not the fighter, the carrier that Carl referred to

It was de rigeur in small ship CT universes for all capital ships to be hybrid cruiser-carriers, and SLOW... in part, because without Bk 5, there was nothing bigger than the triple turret, and there was the 1 turret per 100Td limit. At 3000 Td, with maxed drives, you get:

3000 Hull
__60 Bridge
___9 Model 7
_125 Jump Drive Z=4
__47 Maneuver Drive Z=4
__73 Powerplant Z=4
__40 Fuel PP
1200 Fuel JD
_172 43 SR for crew - CO, XO, P,N, M, 5E, 3A, 30G
__30 30 Turrets.
1246 unaccounted for.

just over 40% unaccounted for. It can be cargo, or it can be small craft. For a pure warship, the ONLY viable choices are marines or fighters.

Note: TL15 Bk2 design, due to Drives Z.
At TL 13 (& 14), it's maximum ratings are J1 M1 P1. TL13 is drives Q,

3000 Hull
__60 Bridge
___9 Model 7
__80 Jump Drive Q=1
__29 Maneuver Drive Q=1
__46 Powerplant Q=1
__40 Fuel PP
_300 Fuel JD
_172 43 SR for crew - CO, XO, P,N, M, 5E, 3A, 30G
__30 30 Turrets.
2264 unaccounted for.


Similarly large tonnage surpluses at lower tonnages with lower tech levels. The only way to use that tonnage for improvement of combat potential is either duplicate drives (which are offline until better than the mains, and then take over), to carry marines, or to carry fightercraft.

A fighter under Bk 2 takes 10 for the fighter, and 4 for the pilot.

 

[Carlobrand]

Is there a vessel like this already designed, or this just your take on things?

Also, with 10dT only for cargo, are these pirates taking the target ship in it's entirety, or hoping to just pinch some high-value-low-volume cargo?

No, you're misunderstanding me. I'm suggesting the ship was originally a legitimate pocket carrier. Staterooms are right on target to crew the ship as a pocket carrier, as I described. In that role, it serves the same purpose as the police cruiser - it polices the system looking for pirates and privateers.

In that role, the fighters give it an advantage: not just more firepower, but the ability to patrol a larger area. Ten fighters can patrol most of a world's jump shadow; a pair of them ought to be able to give a good fight to an intruder while the rest are racing in to support. In conjunction with police cruisers, they can be used to aggressively search an area where pirates might be basing, widening the search area. Not much use against naval warships, but very effective against these small ships. The 10 dT cargo is mainly for ship's stores: spare missiles, parts, supplies, and so forth.

At the point where the carrier is decommissioned and sold off (or if we think of it as a Sword Worlds ship, is being sold to an outside interest), the fighters and the cutter are pulled out and put to other use, and whatever fixtures are in the bay for docking fighters is pulled out, so the buyer gets a second-hand jump-2 ship with a big empty bay that would be ideal for cargo. Except in this case, a criminal cartel bought the ships through a front corporation and is using them for piracy.

 

[wbyrd]

I was working on this and since the subject cam up....

It's mongoose high Guard build and pretty rough so let me know if my math is wrong.



Animikeeg Class 4000 Ton Support Carrier TL-12 Military Capital Ship

4000 tons, Class CB two sections, hull.structure 80/80

system	notes	rating	tons	cost
Jump Drive		4	60	120
Manoeuvre Drive		4	70	235
Power Plant		4	60	150
Reactor Fuel		2 weeks	30
Jump Fuel, Single Jump 4, 200 ton Small Craft Fuel			1800
Fuel Scoop
Fuel Processors		All Fuel 2 days	35	1.75
Bridge		2 Command Modules	30	30
Briefing Rooms		4 Briefing rooms	16	2
8 x Triple	Pulse Laser (Very High Yeild)		8	20
8 x Triple	Beam Laser ( Accurate)		8	32
8 X Triple	Sandcaster		8	10.5
Computer Core / 6		90	---	50
Electronics Advanced DM +1
Staterooms	60 double, 6 single		264	132
Cargo			116
Hanger	550 Tons Small craft		715	156
Launch Tubes	30 Ton Max		750	375
Repair Drones	30		6	1207.75

[/TD] [TC=4]Turrets[/tc]

 

[Ulsyus]

It was de rigeur in small ship CT universes for all capital ships to be hybrid cruiser-carriers, and SLOW... in part, because without Bk 5, there was nothing bigger than the triple turret, and there was the 1 turret per 100Td limit.

That puts it in perspective, thanks.

In that role, the fighters give it an advantage: not just more firepower, but the ability to patrol a larger area. Ten fighters can patrol most of a world's jump shadow; a pair of them ought to be able to give a good fight to an intruder while the rest are racing in to support. In conjunction with police cruisers, they can be used to aggressively search an area where pirates might be basing, widening the search area.

It makes a lot of sense then for patrol vessels to either carry fighters or have a packet of drones that can be dropped out to set up as a surveillance array until they have to return for servicing and refueling.

 

[aramis]

That puts it in perspective, thanks.



It makes a lot of sense then for patrol vessels to either carry fighters or have a packet of drones that can be dropped out to set up as a surveillance array until they have to return for servicing and refueling.

Sensor missiles in rules post-date Bk-5 by several years. SS3 Missiles. Which, until the CD, was not readily available. It was the first item for which a fan-replication was authorized by Marc; it was up on the web in about 1997, in HTML.