Social Standing and cost of living

[Spartan159]

So I'm looking at the T5 Social Standing ranks and also the cost of living, which formula is Soc *100 per month, and it leaves me scratching my head, I mean, it seems a bit low on the high end of the scale eh? As an alternative I came up with the following chart, which probably still does not ramp up enough at the higher end.


Social Standing, Rank, Cost of Living / 4 weeks
0 Social Outcast 50
1 Social Misfit 100
2 Dregs of Society 200
3 Lower Low Class 600
4 Middle Low Class 800
5 Upper Low Class 1,000
6 Low Middle Class 1,800
7 Middle Class 2,100
8 Upper Middle 2,400
9 Low Upper Class 3,600
A Gentleman/Lady 5,000
B Knight/Dame 5,500
c Baronet /Baronetess 6,000
C Baron/Baroness 7,800
D Marquis /Marquise 8,400
e Viscount/Viscountess 9,000
E Count/Countess 11,200
f Duke/Duchess 11,900
F (Sub) Sector Duke/Duchess 12,600
G Archduke, Prince/Princess 15,200
H Emperor/Empress 20,000



Also I was wondering, if you can have social standing above 10 that is not linked to nobility, just what they would be called and what the limit would be? For example A might be Upper Class and B might be Upper Upper Class but what would c be, Lower Snobbish Rich?

 

[kilemall]

MgT has a whole menu of cost for this topic, along with penalties for not living 'up to your station'. Nice mechanic.

Does seem low for the high-end types.

Try SOC³ x 10.

 

[kilemall]

As for positions, I suppose it depends on what got them the ranking in the first place- money, fame, power, celebrityhood, etc.

If celebrity, maybe
A D-list
B C-list
C B-list
D A-list
E Starmaker/Fame Broker
F Legend


If corporate/finance, titles in line with increasing authority.

A Vice-President
B President/CEO
C Board Member
D Captain of Industry
E Titan of Industry
F Statesman

Power, title held then, drop 1-3 levels after leaving office depending on terms and regard held, perhaps after death rising above.

US positions for just an example-

A City/State office
B Representative
C Governor
D Senator
E Vice President, Speaker of the House
F President
G Legendary Icon

 

[Spartan159]

MgT has a whole menu of cost for this topic, along with penalties for not living 'up to your station'. Nice mechanic.

Does seem low for the high-end types.

Try SOC³ x 10.

The MgT chart is what inspired me however it does not appear to follow a formula that I could detect and is missing data points. I was looking at developing a curve with Soc 7 being the middle of the curve but I find myself having to relearn my algebra. Yay math.

 

[Enoki]

You should add a range rather than a fixed amount. Something like:

Minimum lifestyle / miserly

Average lifestyle

Affluent lifestyle

Hedonist / extravagant lifestyle.

Anyone at any particular social level could be following this pattern. Maybe include a requirement that a character with say carousing level 2+ has to be at least affluent.
Other skills might influence where a character fits into this too. Ones that require considerable interaction with other people, particularly like say Trader (you're in sales so you have to present yourself in a good light), or liaison might require you spend more on how you live.
A scout operating a ship mostly by himself could choose minimum without too much difficulty.

But, forcing a fixed amount on players is really not giving them the choice they should have.

 

[Timerover51]

My view is that my player-character will spend his funds in accordance to how I spend money, which is cautiously. I can understand that at a certain level, one might spend more money than one wishes to maintain social contacts, but I would not like to be forced to do that. If say I owned a ship, preferably a Free Trader, that would have first call on funds.

Also, I assume that a ship owner might have some related social standing from owning a ship.

 

[Timerover51]

My social standing probably took a major hit tonight as, when my wife and I went to one of our favorite restaurants when she got home from the tax office, I passed up the New York Strip special with added shrimp for the much cheaper, and in my humble view, much tastier, meatloaf. My enjoyment of Haggis, Neaps, and Tatties would also doom me to relegation among the plebeians. I also like cottage pie and fried Spam, so definitely lower class. Not a fan of caviar at all, and I will pass on the escargot.

 

[kilemall]

My social standing probably took a major hit tonight as, when my wife and I went to one of our favorite restaurants when she got home from the tax office, I passed up the New York Strip special with added shrimp for the much cheaper, and in my humble view, much tastier, meatloaf. My enjoyment of Haggis, Neaps, and Tatties would also doom me to relegation among the plebeians. I also like cottage pie and fried Spam, so definitely lower class. Not a fan of caviar at all, and I will pass on the escargot.

Best be turning in that SOC-14 mister!

And, if you see me at the Traveller Club, you don't know me we never met.

 

[Timerover51]

Best be turning in that SOC-14 mister!

And, if you see me at the Traveller Club, you don't know me we never met.

I forgot the oatmeal. I ate a lot growing up, and still like it. Nice late night snack on a cold evening. Adult comfort food. However, per Samuel Johnson:

'a grain, which in England is generally given to horses, but in Scotland supports the people.'

I might do okay among the society of Scotland, but some consider that one step below "savages".

 

[Meeko100]

Worth asking at what TL those estimates are made. A factory worker at TL 15 churning out replacement Air/Raft parts is probably earning a good deal more effective money then a TL 8 Master Mason.

There's no scaling for the money you should be making at different TL. I imagine these are at TL 8 because most versions have a ground car be between 15-20k Cr, and its reasonable that you could afford to buy a brand-new car wholesale with a years wages. At that level, a Soc 7-8-ish could fall into that category.

*Sorry* I didn't see the "Cost of Living" instead of "Amount Earned". But I think it makes sense still. Your cost of living is very closely tied to what you can afford to payout in total.

 

[Enoki]

Worth asking at what TL those estimates are made. A factory worker at TL 15 churning out replacement Air/Raft parts is probably earning a good deal more effective money then a TL 8 Master Mason.

There's no scaling for the money you should be making at different TL. I imagine these are at TL 8 because most versions have a ground car be between 15-20k Cr, and its reasonable that you could afford to buy a brand-new car wholesale with a years wages. At that level, a Soc 7-8-ish could fall into that category.

*Sorry* I didn't see the "Cost of Living" instead of "Amount Earned". But I think it makes sense still. Your cost of living is very closely tied to what you can afford to payout in total.

You're conflating the cost of living with what wages are. A cost of living can be estimated by a combination of social level and tech level for the most part just as it can be done contemporarily on Earth today.
What someone earns as a wage can vary substantially by the job they do and the economic and political conditions they are doing it in. The freer the society (law level and government), the more likely wages will be higher. But, too little government and law may detract from the wage scale just like too much does. The population base of a world or system would also have an effect. A system with hundreds living in it is likely not to have the kind of wages that one with billions could generate. Even if the small population were brilliant and used high tech to be incredibly productive their local market is near nil. They would be very dependent on exports for income and imports would be far more expensive due to lack of volume.

This problem is definitely one that produces :CoW:

 

[kilemall]

Worth asking at what TL those estimates are made. A factory worker at TL 15 churning out replacement Air/Raft parts is probably earning a good deal more effective money then a TL 8 Master Mason.

There's no scaling for the money you should be making at different TL. I imagine these are at TL 8 because most versions have a ground car be between 15-20k Cr, and its reasonable that you could afford to buy a brand-new car wholesale with a years wages. At that level, a Soc 7-8-ish could fall into that category.

*Sorry* I didn't see the "Cost of Living" instead of "Amount Earned". But I think it makes sense still. Your cost of living is very closely tied to what you can afford to payout in total.

Striker does show a per capita amount per TL as part of the tax revenue calc formula.

You could probably figure out per earner wages extrapolated from relative ages, family structure, work patterns etc., take SOC 7 as a 1.0 baseline either increase/decrease likely worker income by 10% per SOC level from 7, or do some logarithmic variant of same if you want the rich richer and the poor poorer.

To give just a TL 8 example, the listed per capita is 8000 Cr. Say a typical family unit is one earner and two dependents, that's 24000 Cr average earner at SOC 7.

Now that's Striker/CT so the proposed cost structure definitely doesn't work- perhaps more like 500 Cr per month per person, 18000 Cr total per year, leaving 6000 Cr disposable which could buy the family car in 3000 Cr installments over 5-6 years.

CT has ordinary food and lodging at 400 Cr per month, and excellent at 900 Cr. So our three person one earner family at SOC 7 would cost 14000 Cr- that leaves 10000 Cr disposable per year, enough for your two year car purchase schedule.

Note our Travellers can be sending money home from their merc or ship jobs and support a few dependents.

Hmm, SOC 10 with 30% more earnings, 32000 Cr, but costing 32400 Cr to maintain appearances. May have to drop it a notch to get disposable income, much less afford High Passage vacations.

 

[McPerth]

So I'm looking at the T5 Social Standing ranks and also the cost of living, which formula is Soc *100 per month, and it leaves me scratching my head, I mean, it seems a bit low on the high end of the scale eh? As an alternative I came up with the following chart, which probably still does not ramp up enough at the higher end.

(...)

Also I was wondering, if you can have social standing above 10 that is not linked to nobility, just what they would be called and what the limit would be? For example A might be Upper Class and B might be Upper Upper Class but what would c be, Lower Snobbish Rich?

See that there are many factors that can vary this. One can have good SOC due to his post that does not correspond to his/her standing of living (e.g. a military officer, that may represent a status higher than what he spends in living, as he/she lives in the unit quarters).

Similarly, see that any ship crew can claim to expend Cr 4000 per four weeks (maybe 3000 in MgT if staterooms are shared), and so as a SOC 9-A character, as is the cost of life support, regardless his real SOC.

Worth asking at what TL those estimates are made. A factory worker at TL 15 churning out replacement Air/Raft parts is probably earning a good deal more effective money then a TL 8 Master Mason.

There's no scaling for the money you should be making at different TL. I imagine these are at TL 8 because most versions have a ground car be between 15-20k Cr, and its reasonable that you could afford to buy a brand-new car wholesale with a years wages. At that level, a Soc 7-8-ish could fall into that category.

*Sorry* I didn't see the "Cost of Living" instead of "Amount Earned". But I think it makes sense still. Your cost of living is very closely tied to what you can afford to payout in total.

You could use the conversions given in CT:TCS (i've heard is in Striker too, but I don't have access to it).

So, what one spends in a planet is counted on local credits (and the local SOC might also be so modified, so a SOC B character that spends his Cr 5500 on a TL5, C starport planet may well be seen as spending only 2200 (as local credits are equivalent to 0.4 standard (TL F, A starport) ones, and so be seen as SOC 7 in the galactic community at large (something IMHO far from impossible to imagine, as he may be a knight, but from a marginal planet, BTW).

 

[kilemall]

Actually, the two TL/starport currency matrices aren't per capita salaries, and what's more they don't match.

I would assume that is because they were designed for two different gaming results and ways of figuring out a military budget.

Striker's is geared more towards 'how much does it cost to buy and maintain a TL12 weapon on a TL8 world', vs. 'how much revenue does each planet funnel into the interstellar polities' navy adjusting per capita flat naval tax for lower desirable productivity on lower TL planets'.

The TCS matrice is more oriented towards currency exchange and is a gentler curve then the Striker one, which is all about limiting 'mercs/gov automatically win with superior imported tech' play.

You can gun down the local Zulus with your magic weapons, answering such questions as 'can 5 grav tanks beat 1000 Panther tanks', but it's gonna fiscally hurt.

Example, a TL-A A starport Striker cost factor is .5 vs. TLF-A, while TCS currency exchange is .75 between the same.

I fully intend to get around to exploring what happens if you take both of these rules together as binding 'reality' and what happens to economics and politics, it's a wild topic.

Among other things, those fancy ship crew pay scales start looking REAL good to a low tech citizen.

 

[McPerth]

The TCS matrice is more oriented towards currency exchange

And, IMHO, that's what makes them adecuate for this

 

[Enoki]

If we look at the social standing of societies on Earth there are really three distinct ones: Developed, developing, and under or undeveloped. First, second, and third world or tier if you want. In terms of Traveller we really have the same thing, at least for the Human systems in the game.
A developed system is the one the game describes in terms of social standing. These would be worlds / systems that are:

Starport A
TL 13+
Pop 6 – 9
Gov 4, 5, 7, 8, 9
Law 5 to 8

That is, they are technologically at the top. They large enough population to support a good economy and economic diversity. The government is stable and not oppressive, nor is it some form of dictatorship.

Developing worlds would be described as:

Starport B or C
TL 9 – 12
Pop > 4
Gov 1 to A, or a C
Law 5 to 9

A developing world has technology that isn’t too far from the top. They’re at least in the game and competitive even if somewhat lower level. The population is at a minimum sustainable and may be anything up to massive. There is a government and it isn’t horribly oppressive, hence the inclusion of charismatic dictatorships and captive governments.

Then there are un- or under-developed worlds:
Starport C, D, E, X
TL 0 – 8
Pop: any
Gov: any
Law 0 – 3 or > 8

These worlds are technological backwaters. They can’t compete in interstellar business. The population could be small making them economically difficult or impossible to sustain, or the population could be huge resulting in massive poverty due to poor economic conditions. The government can take any form. Law levels render them either lawless or oppressive.
Start with starport and work down the list to get the one that fits best to the world being looked at. Move up (towards developed) or down (to undeveloped) as necessary based on other factors below:

Move lower if:

Poor
Vac world and TL < 9
Desert or water world
Amber or Red zone
Pre-Industrial

Move higher if:

Rich
Paradise
Industrial
Vac World TL > 12
Once the economic development of the system is determined, the following table determines social status:
Developed system: Use the game social status table to roll
Developing system:
Roll SOC
2…..2
3…..3
4…..3
5…..4
6…..4
7…..5
8…..6
9…..7
10…8
11, 12: Roll 1D6 1 = 8, 2 = 8, 3 = 9, 4 = 10, 5 = 11, 6 = 12

Undeveloped:
Roll SOC
2…..1
3…..1
4…..2
5…..2
6…..3
7…..3
8…..4
9…..4
10…5
11 Roll on normal Social table per rules
12: Roll 1D6: 1 = 7, 2 = 8, 3 = 9, 4 = 10, 5 = 11, 6 = 12

EDU on developing and undeveloped worlds equals SOC + rolling 2D6 one + and one -. That is, if the + roll is 4 and the – roll is 2, add 2 to the character’s EDU score. SOC rolls of 10 + roll using the normal system in the rules.

This system reflects that the vast majority of people on undeveloped or developing worlds will be living in relative poverty and lack access to “modern” technology and education. The “rich” and elite on any world will have access to modern amenities, imported or local, and there will still be some middle class that caters to them and provides jobs to the lower classes.
Basically, it makes having a technically savvy and well educated character from a world that is a technological backwater far more difficult. It doesn’t mean it isn’t possible, but it is far less likely.

 

[kilemall]

I think tying SOC to world development status does not fly.

Near as I can tell being High Baron of Planet Backwoods doesn't slow down your standing.

If anything an oppressive government would tend to be NECESSARY to uphold a noble class on a limited resource/production world, titled or otherwise.

Now tying EDU to SOC, that's brilliance, wish I had thought of it. Going to definitely do that from now on. Think I'll do

2d6 + SOC - 7 = EDU

 

[Enoki]

I think tying SOC to world development status does not fly.

Near as I can tell being High Baron of Planet Backwoods doesn't slow down your standing.

If anything an oppressive government would tend to be NECESSARY to uphold a noble class on a limited resource/production world, titled or otherwise.

Now tying EDU to SOC, that's brilliance, wish I had thought of it. Going to definitely do that from now on. Think I'll do

2d6 + SOC - 7 = EDU

But, that's how basic character development is rolled up now, at least beyond CT. You either specify a home world or roll one up for the character.

And, the system above described doesn't preclude Baron Whodoyoucallit from some backwater still being a Baron and having a good education or knowing about technology. On the other hand you're a typical peon from some TL 5 planet you're not too likely to know squat about TL 13 anything beyond maybe a picture you saw in a magazine or something. And, that will effect your social standing when you go travelling off world.

 

[kilemall]

But, that's how basic character development is rolled up now, at least beyond CT. You either specify a home world or roll one up for the character.

And, the system above described doesn't preclude Baron Whodoyoucallit from some backwater still being a Baron and having a good education or knowing about technology. On the other hand you're a typical peon from some TL 5 planet you're not too likely to know squat about TL 13 anything beyond maybe a picture you saw in a magazine or something. And, that will effect your social standing when you go travelling off world.

I've gathered that there are homeworld effects like gravity or atmo changing stats or sets of childhood 0-skills, but scaling the SOC stat to an assumption of a 'skinny' resource pyramid is I suspect a rule too far.

As I recall Pocahontas was received by the British Royal family, the functional equivalent of your scenario. She didn't become Duke of York, but she was treated as a lower noble.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pocahontas#England