T5's take on Imperial Nobles

[aramis]

True today, though in earlier years, post "civil war" it was self proclaimed. During reconstruction they were a dime a dozen.

No, true since 1812. Most of the "self proclaimed" ones are not recognized as such by anyone but their kin. The Aides de Camp to the Govn'or have been occasional up to the 1880's, and de rigeur since 1885.

And, technically, calling oneself a colonel without a commission is a federal crime, tho' that commission can come from any of a number of sources...

 

[rancke]

Kentucky Colonels are actually a personal title awarded by the Governor of the Commonwealth of Kentucky to an individual. It's as close to a noble title as anyone outside Hawaii is entitled to within the US.

Technically, it's a commission by the Commonwealth, and bears state military precedence due to officially being an "Aide de Camp" to the Governor of Kentucky. In practice, it's a membership nominated honorary title.

In other words, pretty much the same kind of deal as a UK knighthood: Neat title, no duty per se, and a lifetime award, normally given in response to a nomination from the others for some achievement, but new ones can be created at whim and/or without explanation.

Interesting. The colonels I'd heard about were as I described but for all of the South. It was also in a Western, so could have been something the author made up out of whole cloth.

These Kentucky Colonels is of quite a different stripe and seems quite as good as many European knighthoods. I'm a little surprised that Kentucky is the only state that has them.

From the numbers mentioned in the wikipedia article, they also seem to fit with my notion of planetary knights, i.e. the lower upper class, or gentry, far below the rank of an Imperial noble.


Hans

 

[Shonner]

Maybe the SOC value is just potential nobility SOC. A lot of people with high SOC don't just automatically get to be nobility. Not everyone is governor of a state. But they have the same SOC as a governor.

 

[rancke]

Maybe the SOC value is just potential nobility SOC. A lot of people with high SOC don't just automatically get to be nobility. Not everyone is governor of a state. But they have the same SOC as a governor.

"Social Standing notes the social class and level of society from which the character (and his or her family) comes."

-- The Traveller Book, p. 17​

Hans

 

[Shonner]

"Social Standing notes the social class and level of society from which the character (and his or her family) comes."

-- The Traveller Book, p. 17​

Hans

Perfect then. No nobility mentioned.

 

[DonM]

I've provided the social class table from T5 for additional information.

 

[aramis]

Interesting. The colonels I'd heard about were as I described but for all of the South. It was also in a Western, so could have been something the author made up out of whole cloth.

There's a grain of truth to it - If you raised 5 companies or more on your own dime, you could receive a Colonel's Commission from your state... once deployed, the State or the Feds would support the regiment, so the would be Colonel simply had to provide uniforms and rifles... and would then be henceforth a commissioned colonel. Not a few of these then paid someone else to fight the regiment, who would be commissioned as a lieutenant colonel, and his deputy likewise. Every state could issue Commissions. (Technically, still can, but it no longer automatically gets federal recognition.) And replacement commanders would be commissioned (brevet or regular) as colonels as well. And states weren't supposed to issue full commissions to general officers, so their state generals were breveted from Colonel...

Wealthy folks tended to be overrepresented in the officer corps, and colonels (because of not always rising through the officer ranks) overrepresented after the war, and because colonels were not always noted for being directly in the battle, tended to out-survive their juniors. Plus, most officer retirees are field grade (Major, Lt Col, Col), so are overrepresented again. Plus, field grade folk are more likely to identify with their rank, and to use it in civil life. So, Colonels tend to be wealthier, and hence more visible, more likely to survive, and many retirees are Lt. Colonels...

 

[rancke]

Perfect then. No nobility mentioned.

Not in the quote I provided to show what SOC is, no.


Hans

 

[rancke]

There's a grain of truth to it - If you raised 5 companies or more on your own dime, you could receive a Colonel's Commission from your state... once deployed, the State or the Feds would support the regiment, so the would be Colonel simply had to provide uniforms and rifles... and would then be henceforth a commissioned colonel.

The author was J.T. Edson and his little bit of exposition about honorary colonels and judges came in connection with the claim that wealthy rancher Charlie Goodnight was called 'Colonel' despite only having been a sergeant in the Texas Rangers. (I just checked Goodnight on Wikipedia, which says he joined the Confederate army at the outbreak of the Civil War but doesn't mention what rank he reached). Edson's fictional hero, former Confederate captain Dusty Fog, is also said to be 'promoted' to colonel when he reached his late middle age.

Edson is often well informed, but I'm not going to claim that he could not be mistaken occasionally.


Hans

 

[Cryton]

I've provided the social class table from T5 for additional information.

With that added bit of information, it becomes painfully apparent that the way things should work, is that one may or may not have a Noble title for a given Social Status, and that two individuals could have Soc C, but only one of them is a Baron. Perhaps limiting the use of Imperial titles to only those that have terms in Noble, leaving all the Soc C Navy, Marine, ect. guys as Upper Class with no title.

Rich

 

[Bloo]

Perhaps limiting the use of Imperial titles to only those that have terms in Noble, leaving all the Soc C Navy, Marine, ect. guys as Upper Class with no title.

This is basically what I've decided to do for MTU.

High SOC During Stats Roll:

• Soc A: character may enter the Nobles career. Is either Soc A in their own right, or child of a Soc B Noble.
• Soc B: character may enter the Nobles career. Or character is the child of a Soc C Baron and the knighthood is mostly an honorific.
• Soc C: character may enter the Nobles career as a Baronet, serving a superior Noble and a single system. Else, is the child of a Soc D Baron (possibly the heir), and a Knight of an associated order.

(There will be a 'catch-all' knightly order that children of nobles: one of the most common for hereditary nobles).

High SOC Achieved During Careers:
For non-noble career characters who started at Soc A-, increase to Soc B+ is a knighthood (or greater rank of knighthood) in an order associated with the career.

For non-noble characters who started with Soc B or C, player choice:

• 1) Character is the heir, ancestor passes and character is elevated to ancestor's rank (the character's new Soc) and enters the Noble career, or
• 2) Character's knighthood rank increases, or
• 3) Character's ancestor has been elevated in Noble rank and character receives associated status increase.

For Noble career: treat normally.

For Knighthood ranks, I'm thinking of this:
B: Knight Companion
C: Knight
D: Knight Officer (or Knight Lieutenant)
E: Knight Commander
F: Knight Grand Commander
G: Grand Master of an Order (only one per order, this is the Functionary career. For Domain orders, this is the relevant Archduke. The Emperor is the default titular head of every knightly order).

 

[Shonner]

In MTU, nobility is a time-share thing. Each noble gets roughly 1 minute a year to be Archduke of something. Then it's the next noble's turn.

 

[rancke]

I've provided the social class table from T5 for additional information.

What's the difference between Social Outcasts, Social Misfits, and Dregs of Society?

What's the definition of Lower Low Class, Middle Low Class, and Upper Low Class?

9 Low Upper Class
A Middle Upper
B Upper Upper
C Remarkable

No. Just no.

Have you thought about out how many millions of people would be considered the social equals of Imperial barons under that scheme?

With that added bit of information, it becomes painfully apparent that the way things should work, is that one may or may not have a Noble title for a given Social Status, and that two individuals could have Soc C, but only one of them is a Baron.

That has always been the case, with close family of nobles being considered to have the same social standing as their noble relative.

But human nature doesn't work in a way that would give an Imperial baron the same effective social standing as 6.94 million other SOC 12 people (calculated as 1/36th of 250 million). "Should I invite Baron Snooty to my party or one of his 7 million social peers? Gee, that's a tough decision".


Hans

 

[Original_Carl]

In MTU, nobility is a time-share thing. Each noble gets roughly 1 minute a year to be Archduke of something. Then it's the next noble's turn.

Andy Warhol realized through Futurama? That sounds like a fun game.

 

[Bloo]

Following from this thread.

Does anyone understand why T5 adds interstitial lowercase noble ranks when hexadecimal is there to extend the data in a single character (and we "ehex" up to 36 steps)?

Reasons I really dislike this and think it was an unwise decision:
- You can do math on hexadecimal notation, but not on differences in case.
- 3 levels of rank with the same rank title is poor communication: it's confusing and misleading, both in and out of game.
- Smacks of too much "Earth history" and not something to suit the situation.
- breaking the hexadecimal approach in just a couple of place, and not uniformly or systematically is ugly.

Why not use the power of the extended hex as put forth in the book?
B Knight
C Baronet
D Baron
E Marquis
F Viscount
G Count
H Duke (Imp 4+ systems)
I Duke (Subsector)
J Duke (Sector)
K Archduke
L Emperor

Here's my current top of head thinking on this for MTU (with the ideas from above:

SOC | Hereditary Title | Non-Hereditary Title
B: Knight Companion* or Squire (if rolled in Chargen) | Knight Companion**
C: (hereditary) Knight* | Knight**
D: Baronet | Knight Lieutenant
E: Baron | Knight Commander
F: Marquis | Knight Grand Commander
G: Viscount | Grand Master of an Order***
H: Count
I: Margrave**** (Imp 4+ systems)
J: Duke (Subsector)
K: Grand Duke (Sector)
L: Archduke
M: Emperor

Or maybe: ?
I: Duke (Imp 4+ systems)
J: Grand Duke (Subsector)
K: Archduke (Sector)
L: Viceroy
M: Emperor

* In a high-ranking or noble order - if the player chooses this, she is part of a connected family and may have familial obligations (adventure hooks)
** In a specific order, usually a service or regional order - if a player chooses this, she is part of an order and may have obligations (adventure hooks) to that order, and by extension, the government and sovereign, as distinct from a familial relationship.
*** Treat as emperor in the sense there is only one and it generally shouldn't be an active player
**** Just a working title but seems appropriate, open to suggestions)

 

[esampson]

I believe that the lower case letters are sort of interstitial to the older Traveller ranks.

Basically T5 is designed so that there's more 'layers' before you reach F, but it is still the same title and so compatible with earlier Traveller material.

At least that's why I assumed they did it. I haven't actually looked to make sure the ranks line up like that.

 

[Bloo]

I believe that the lower case letters are sort of interstitial to the older Traveller ranks.

Basically T5 is designed so that there's more 'layers' before you reach F, but it is still the same title and so compatible with earlier Traveller material.

At least that's why I assumed they did it. I haven't actually looked to make sure the ranks line up like that.

That's my assumption too, I just don't think that's a big enough value to break the ehex.

 

[esampson]

AH.

You know what? I'll bet they haven't really broken ehex. The question is this; does someone in T5 with a social standing of D have a 14 or is it a 13 as it was in earlier editions when you need a numerical value?

 

[aramis]

d and D are both numerically 13. b and B are both 11. e and E are 14.

 

[Bloo]

d and D are both numerically 13. b and B are both 11. e and E are 14.

Yes, but you can't go the other direction to get a single value.
13 = d or D., etc.
So, if you were doing something with math, for instance, software, if you were going to increment SOC and display results, you have a new, and IMO completely unnecessary, layer of complexity, which hexadecimal was used to avoid in the first place!