social standing
- Thread starter flykiller
- Start date
Having INT 3 is cruel caprice too, and far tougher to deal with then EDU or SOC 3.
Condottiere
SOC-14 5K
I'm not an advocate of playing Intelligence three as a characteristic, five is the acceptable limit.
The tendency is to imagine one can climb the social ladder, because our culture loves the rags to riches story ... in reality, you aren't climbing more than a peg or two. In a universe ruled by hereditary nobles, paupers don't get knighted ... they get thanked for doing their duty, and sent on their way. I see SOC as more or less fixed ... +1, +2 is possible.
Nobody with SOC 4 could become an admiral. A junior officer, perhaps. But promotion to senior rank (and certainly to flag rank) would simply not be possible.
Extremes of SOC are problematic for PCs because they ought to block, or alternatively, to guarantee, career success in some careers.
But systems of hereditary nobility are not meritocracies. You can be as incompetent as you like, but you're still heir to the archduke....
Some of this stuff would be service-dependent. The Scouts e.g. have no rank system in the field and I'd expect Scouts to be somewhat hostile to the very notion of nobility ... the Navy on the other hand is a class-conscious service.
This raises another point: high SOC may not be socially desirable in some situations. You will stand out as Not From Around Here. It may be unsafe to show your face....
A society governed by a hereditary class of nobles, in which high-SOC folks aspire to knighthoods, is a class-conscious society. I envision a zillion markers of class, in how people dress, act, speak, etc. SOC becomes inescapable and high standing can turn from asset to liability.
Mustangs would be officers with SOC 6 ... not officers with SOC 2, 3, or 4. SOC that low implies not simply an unremarkable background, but an undesirable one ... mother was a stripper at a Startown bar, and who knows who father was, a zillion juvenile brushes with the law, etc. This character talks, eats, and acts like he's from the streets.
SOC has real roleplaying value if you want it to.
Condottiere
SOC-14 5K
Reminds me of An Officer And A Gentleman, where three characters were social climbing, and the drill instructor tried to separate the wheat from the chaff.
Enoki
SOC-14 1K
And, that's why I'd suggest modifiers for SOC when it comes to promotion.
If you are far below your SOC and early in a career you get a + modifier for promotion. If you are above it, you get a -.
Nobles would get a bonus for being made officers and getting promotions. Your standing could rise or fall a few notches depending on events and promotions. Exceptional bravery or some other tremendous act might get you knighted and your SOC jumps as a result. But, most of those would be posthumous probably...
Same would go getting into college or an academy. You're a SOC 11+? You go to college pretty much automatically, probably could get into an academy too. It'd be DE rigor for someone of your social set. You're a SOC 5? Better have an above average intelligence and possibly good physical levels or you get passed over.
And, the son of an archduke is likely to be given the military career of his choice as an officer. If incompetent maybe he's put somewhere where he can do little damage and stays for a term or two to "punch his ticket" then moves on to some other activity.
There may be those who would look after this guy to keep him out of trouble and from breaking the family fortune too. Sort of reminds me of Mark Twain's short story, Luck.
http://www.classicshorts.com/stories/luck.html
A lot of careers are like that. From MT you could include rogue, pirate, mercenary, belter, far and free trader merchant, along with scouts. I'd postulate that a SOC above about 7 or 8 would be an undesirable trait in these roles while one of 1 to 6 would be of benefit. Social mobility would be largely irrelevant.
The one exception in that might be Scout characters that are Administrators. These I take to be more like bureaucrats who fly a desk somewhere so they have a degree of respectability. The Scout that is out doing the dirty work and risking his life isn't going to be a social climber or have need of that.
I agree with this. The above categories would likely be very nervous around SOC 9+ characters and uncomfortable around even 7 or 8 ones. They'd be at home with 1 to 6 SOC's and if you weren't in that range you would be looked at as untrustworthy.
That too. Tying SOC to a cost per month for "lifestyle" should be a norm. Of course, you should be able to choose from a range of spending like miser / pauper to extravagant hedonist, but you have to spend to live.
You're noble? You have to spend like a noble, dress like a noble, talk, act, and all the rest like a noble. You're a merchant with high social standing? Better have pressed uniforms and suits that are in style available.
You also talk the talk depending on you career and SOC. You're enlisted Imperial army SOC 5? Potty mouth and clothes from the exchange bargain table are the norm. You might have expensive shoes or sunglasses or such you bought with your six months pay coming out of the field, but they look out of place with your clothes and demeanor.
I agree with that.
We're on the same page here. I think social standing, intelligence and education should all play a greater role in character generation. But then the question is which approach to use: do we treat them as start points, and modify them to match the career background, or do we treat them as static, and have them govern the character generation process?
Oh, you've met me!
Condottiere
SOC-14 5K
In India, because of their caste system, they have reserved university places and government jobs for, let's say, various social standing levels and subdivisions therein.
So it can be solar system and polity dependent.
Outside of the nobility career, you can include the social standing modifier as part of the enlistment role, and possibly promotion/advancement.
So it can be solar system and polity dependent.
Outside of the nobility career, you can include the social standing modifier as part of the enlistment role, and possibly promotion/advancement.
Enoki
SOC-14 1K
I'd say it should be a combination of both. They modify rolls + or - as appropriate, but they can also improve, at least social standing and education. Social standing should also be able to be lowered.
For instance, the character is court martialed or repeatedly fails to get promoted.
I don't know that you could really do much about intelligence. That trait I'd think is pretty much a fixed value by the time you're an adult.
In some fields, like I noted earlier, social standing would be fixed except in exceptional circumstances. This would be due to these not placing any emphasis on social ranking in particular.
I'm curious what folks who like to stick to simply the original 3 LBB, pre-Imperium have to say about this.
The consideration is that while SOC may not be static (as it can be improved etc via chargen), but it implies that it is universal.
Most folks here have different SOC ratings based on their different environments. I could have a high SOC at the office, for example, but when it comes to the DMV -- not so much.
In Imperial society, a universal SOC can work, as most planets governed by the Nobles, have some connection with the system.
Simply, a Noble is a Noble -- everywhere. If Joe Random Noble walks in to a bar, he may well have a low to mid SOC standing, i.e. that of any other generic random customer in the bar -- that is until he makes his title known (however that is done).
Even on a backwater, you could be expected to hear someone talking to the fellow about to raise his fist "Don't do it, he's one of them."
The nobility system, in theory, is universally taught throughout the Imperium -- thus giving root to the idea of a universal SOC rating.
But pre-imperium, what could be used to explain such a universal trait?
The consideration is that while SOC may not be static (as it can be improved etc via chargen), but it implies that it is universal.
Most folks here have different SOC ratings based on their different environments. I could have a high SOC at the office, for example, but when it comes to the DMV -- not so much.
In Imperial society, a universal SOC can work, as most planets governed by the Nobles, have some connection with the system.
Simply, a Noble is a Noble -- everywhere. If Joe Random Noble walks in to a bar, he may well have a low to mid SOC standing, i.e. that of any other generic random customer in the bar -- that is until he makes his title known (however that is done).
Even on a backwater, you could be expected to hear someone talking to the fellow about to raise his fist "Don't do it, he's one of them."
The nobility system, in theory, is universally taught throughout the Imperium -- thus giving root to the idea of a universal SOC rating.
But pre-imperium, what could be used to explain such a universal trait?
Timerover51
SOC-14 5K
I prefer the Classic LLB version of Traveller over all of the other versions. When it comes to players rolling for character stats, I use a modified form of my AD&D system: they either roll 3 dice and take the 2 highest, or have a roll of 1D6 + 6. I figure that characters can survive with characteristics below 7 for strength and dexterity, but for Endurance, Intelligence, and Education, 7 is the absolute minimum I will go with.
As for Social Standing, they can roll 2 or 3 D6 or 1D6 + 4. Anything over 10 either gets chopped by another die roll of D4, or gets rerolled until less than 11. Another choice is swap their lowest other stat for the number in their Social Standing stat.
Personally, I would prefer using the Social Standing stat more as an indication as to the individual's physical appearance, or maybe Leadership capacity.
Oh that's easy.
Bearing, reactions, interactions, body language- there would be cultural differences and memes that might not translate well, but people carrying themselves with dignity and power vs. common people vs. low classes are near universal human behavioral traits.
I daresay a Persian satrap would recognize a US Rail Baron across the room and vice versa simply by how they interacted with their respective retinues.
Or a Dickensian factory worker interacting with a pyramid worker (although quite possibly the pyramid guys were 'union' and treated and paid well).
And many other less subtle signs, such as accent and manner of speech.
Some will protest: an interstellar society will be so diverse that accents, grammar, etc., will be irrelevant. But this ignores the social dynamic. In any society, "proper" standards develop among the upper classes, and mid-status folks ape those standards.
In an interstellar society, the high status folks travel between worlds; people who never leave their homeworlds are the yokels. An "interstellar" dialect develops and becomes "proper," and next thing you know, teachers and parents advise children that ain't ain't in the dictionary, so ain't ain't a word.
(Ain't is a word, and it is in the OED. But it is seen as "incorrect" English for entirely class-based reasons.)
Condottiere
SOC-14 5K
Interstellar media would popularize current fashionable trends, while the classics could maintain uppercrust dialect(s).
Universial behavior traits?
How would a Human, (Zhodani, Vilani, Solomani, et al) using Social Standing then gauge that Vargr across the room who is going on more mercurial trait of Charisma? Alpha, Beta, Omega?
Same for Aslan using Territory over Social Standing.
Hiver? Secret hand shake?
K'kree? Got herd?
Droyne? How's your Caste holding up?
Playing the interactions game becomes more complex the more species of sophonts one adds. This is especially true in Starports featuring extraterritoriality and diversity.
For Net-7 News, this is the Pakkrat.
How would a Human, (Zhodani, Vilani, Solomani, et al) using Social Standing then gauge that Vargr across the room who is going on more mercurial trait of Charisma? Alpha, Beta, Omega?
Same for Aslan using Territory over Social Standing.
Hiver? Secret hand shake?
K'kree? Got herd?
Droyne? How's your Caste holding up?
Playing the interactions game becomes more complex the more species of sophonts one adds. This is especially true in Starports featuring extraterritoriality and diversity.
For Net-7 News, this is the Pakkrat.
Oh, quite agreed on one level Paak, not a near instinctive realtime learned from birth and growing up reaction.
But then it would be a learned interaction, they would notice/connect or be briefed/told that when X species does this twitch or that reaction that it means Y, with some hilarious/potentially tragic conversions to the interpreter's 'reality tools'.
The other part is that if you go through all those Alien Modules, you find that there is some hierarchical resolution system for resource acquisition/use and societal direction for every species/polity.
A goodly portion of cross-species interaction is to make sure you are talking to the right level of 'decider' for what you want to do.
Which may not be hitting up the SOC C equivalent, bribing a bigshot to fix an air/raft parking ticket is likely to result in jail time out of proportion to the original transgression. Bigshots can't/won't risk their reputation for small fry problems and opportunities and maintain their status.
But then it would be a learned interaction, they would notice/connect or be briefed/told that when X species does this twitch or that reaction that it means Y, with some hilarious/potentially tragic conversions to the interpreter's 'reality tools'.
The other part is that if you go through all those Alien Modules, you find that there is some hierarchical resolution system for resource acquisition/use and societal direction for every species/polity.
A goodly portion of cross-species interaction is to make sure you are talking to the right level of 'decider' for what you want to do.
Which may not be hitting up the SOC C equivalent, bribing a bigshot to fix an air/raft parking ticket is likely to result in jail time out of proportion to the original transgression. Bigshots can't/won't risk their reputation for small fry problems and opportunities and maintain their status.
and these would consist primarily of "folks" from high-population high-tech worlds such as trin, mora, efate, and glisten?
"high status" might include mere ceo's and mere wealthy merchant ship owners. would "high status" encompass nobility? or would nobility be its own society entirely?
High status means high status. It doesn't exclusively mean nobles.
Choosing the Glisten subsecctor, we have a population of 22.4 billion with just 43 nobles. There are, however, about 1.9 billion people with SOC B or higher, if SOC is a simple 2D6 roll. These people are more likely to travel between worlds because (a) they have more money for high passages and (b) they are more likely to have wide-ranging interests. As the cream of their own worlds, they are more likely to look out towards other worlds, to mark their status by aping the latest fashions from Capital, etc. They're in the high-fidelity first-class-travelling set and they think they need a Lear jet.
Of course, simply travelling between worlds doesn't give you high status ... the assistant 2nd engineer on some grimy ore carrier travels between worlds but he isn't in the jet set.
Choosing the Glisten subsecctor, we have a population of 22.4 billion with just 43 nobles. There are, however, about 1.9 billion people with SOC B or higher, if SOC is a simple 2D6 roll. These people are more likely to travel between worlds because (a) they have more money for high passages and (b) they are more likely to have wide-ranging interests. As the cream of their own worlds, they are more likely to look out towards other worlds, to mark their status by aping the latest fashions from Capital, etc. They're in the high-fidelity first-class-travelling set and they think they need a Lear jet.
Of course, simply travelling between worlds doesn't give you high status ... the assistant 2nd engineer on some grimy ore carrier travels between worlds but he isn't in the jet set.
that's a whole lotta high passages. assuming that 1/10 of them travel 2/year, that's 380 million excursions a year, 7.3 million a week. assuming 100k dton j2 m2 liners carrying about 5000 passengers each with about 10 dtons/passenger, that's about 1460 of those ships to service just that excursion load.
geez, no wonder the tech 15 imperials can't beat the tech 14 zhos, their yards are too busy building liners. "are those nasty old meson guns really more important than mumsie's party?"
Condottiere
SOC-14 5K
Ye dice bell curve doesn't reflect the techno feudal capitalistic society of the Imperium.
Game mechanics were always biased to create a way above average Traveller.
Game mechanics were always biased to create a way above average Traveller.
