Soleean War Experiences

[Gallowglacht]

For those who ran TNE campaigns, how did the war with Solee go? How long, how many battles, how many ships did the RC worlds commit etc? I want Solee to be a bit more than a straw-man, easily beaten aside. I'm sure the RC will win, so what sort of peace will the Solee accept? How were they absorbed? etc....

 

[shield]

How many ships committed - all the military frigates and the assault transports + some victrix, with lancers doing general hit and run.

Duration about 6 months of proper war and another 3 months of people late getting the news.

The general opinion is that Solee crews just arn't good enough and they don't have the facilities to repair their high-tech ships. They go down after a couple or pyrhic victories over the RCN. But the RCN can repair their battle-damaged ships and build new ones.

The empress is defeated by an internal coup.

shameless Plug: The Freedom League Sourcebook will be out soon and covers all this in some detail

Cheers
Richard

 

[anders lager]

Empire of Solee - sources

Hi everyone!

Pardon my igorance, but where can I find info on the Soleean empire? As I recall it's only briefly mentioned in the TNE books....

Thanks

 

[kafka47]

RC went down in flames...to lead a Rebel action a la Star Wars against the Empire...as time went on the Empire only got stronger until it faced the menance from the Black Curtain.

 

[Gallowglacht]

Hi everyone!

Pardon my igorance, but where can I find info on the Soleean empire? As I recall it's only briefly mentioned in the TNE books....

Thanks

http://www.downport.com/bard/bard/bardgail.html

This page gives the coalition info reports. The first three are GDW, the others fan-made extrapolations. They are mentioned ocasionally. They also show up in scenarios for Battle Rider.
Although there isn't that much mentioned about Solee, you can use the equations in PoT to stat out Solee's Navy and the fact that they are mentioned as having a talented government means they are the biggest dog in the RC's area. Basically these guys and Kide are my favourite RC foils.

 

[epicenter00]

The war with the Solee was basically one of those embarrassing "MISSION ACCOMPLISHED" situations for the RC. The way I saw it, the Soleean Navy was a joke. The first few battles that the RC had, the RCN hardly had to get involved. Freelancers and the RCES basically swatted the Soleean Navy out of space in a few skirmishes.

To make things interesting though, I decided that Overtak was quite popular in the Empire and wasn't just your typical "TED waiting to be toppled" situation. Even at this early point, I decided that a certain self-righteous complacency was already beginning to settle into the RC, in particular the RC's belief that all beings in the universe cry out for a representative government. So the RC's intel basically mistakenly tags Solee as a TED situation ripe to be toppled and that the people, once shaking off the terror of their oppressive TED government would rejoice or at least be tractable.

The Empress Solee herself isn't stupid. The RC spies on her, and she knows this. What the RC hasn't really had experience with is the possibility the Soleeans may be spying on them - after all, the universal constant to the RC up to now is that all worlds around them are basically "navel gazers." Using the exact same tactics the RC does (Free Traders) Soleean spies have sneak into the RC. Counter-Intelligence is something the RC hasn't even considered up to this point - Soleean spies find out all sorts of fascinating facts just by attending Auction. RC governmental openess means that it's easy to gauge RC operational strengths. She realized that the RC would attempt a decapitation raid. She very quietly has herself replaced by a double in the palace. In addition, she has her elite troops rotated out of the palace as well, to be replaced by "dignity battalion" types and troops of questionable political reliability who basically wear overdone uniforms and spend their time polishing their boots and learning to look good marching. The RC advance teams see all of this after it's already happened and it plays into the increasing complacency of the RC who figure that all these TEDs are arrogant and bloated and their militaries not up to RC levels of professionalism.

The RC slips their assault teams into the system, imagining themselves to be undetected, but Soleean Navy elements that monitor the system security sensors know their jobs a lot better than their ship crews (and have relic TL14+ equipment). The world gets warning of the raiders in advance and a day before the raiders are expected to arrive the Empress declares a "Day of Silence" to commemorate the defeat of the Soleean Navy. During this day, no telecommunications are allowed on the planet for 24 hours and lights are to be dimmed. The RC moves into orbit and drops, the locations of AA and sensor marked for easy elimination by their advance teams.

RC advance teams are lulled by seeing the expected patterns: Refurbished TL12 grav tanks refitted with TL9 weaponry as the "Imperial Guard" - obviously the TEDs can't maintain their TL12 weaponry so have replaced it with lower-tech versions. Static AA sites involve a lot of TL6-7 AA missiles and some close orbital atomic weapons, including (supposed) pride of the Soleean Navy, the "Flamebird" orbital defence missile (think of some H2O2 moon rocket with atomic warheads). There's a lot of them (as expected of an "Empire") but they seem pretty par for the course. As usual of TEDs, they find Soleean radio, TV, and telecom hubs to be totally unguarded. "Hammer" is already talking about how this operation will be a great way to test RC operations without major losses.

The RC drops using their standard tactics, meteoric assault. The RC drops in expecting show troops and that's exactly what they find. Meteoric assault seizes communication hubs to enforce a blackout. The most elite troops drop on the planet to seize the Empress. They expect to find ineffective show-troops, and that's exactly what they find - fanatical, decently equipped (for a bunch of Teddy troops) but unskilled and badly coordinated they fall like wheat.

Very quickly, however, the RC discovers their serious mistake. The radio and TV stations are empty - the actual broadcast equipment having been moved out the places that were tagged are just rebroadcasting and administrative offices. The Empress they seize is a double. The relic TL15 COACC defense sensors and TL15 Deep Meson guns are swatting RC ships out of space. The local equivalent of the "Girl/Boy Scouts" or "Young Pioneers" were driven out for a tour and an exciting "night in the barracks" around the Imperial Palace and to play around with the "Victory" grav tanks at the palace. Of course, these tanks are thrashed by RC close air support, killing hundreds of children (the "Day of Silence" of course, worked in favor of the Soleeans, not the RC as the RC advance teams, with the lack of telecommunications on the planet couldn't "wave off" the incoming missions without giving away their positions so had to either give away their positions or watch in mute horror). Photos of the children (and parts of children) are widely disseminated by the Soleeans to their own people and anyone else who wants them (the Guild) as well as leaked to the RC itself. With their avenues of retreat cut off, the RC troops are stuck on the ground and quickly wiped out or taken prisoner.

It's a terrible defeat for the RC, both operationally and morally. Meanwhile, the Guild and Soleeans come to an "understanding" (more like "the enemy of my enemy is my friend") and the Guild starts training Soleean starship crews. While that won't be effective for at least a year, it's going to take at least that long for the RC to sort itself out and come at the Soleeans again.

Meanwhile in the RC itself, the political fallout is nothing short of a disaster. The RC vets of the operation feel betrayed at the horror of the RC public at the "truth of what's been happening all these years" (as spread by the Guild and Soleeans). Likewise, the "liberal" bloc of the RC is disgusted with the Oriflammen bloc's callous shrugging over the airstrikes on children and their attitude of "Well, it's obviously a Soleean trick and even it weren't, life is hard. Kids die. Deal with it." A lot of disaffected idealists leave RC service forever, leaving the "dehumanized" cabal to call the shots.

 

[Gallowglacht]

Sorry, I just don't buy that as a realistic scenario. Sacrificing their Navy and children just to gain a suprise attack. What are these people Orcs? Kafers? That much high tech hardware hidden that well, ready to use, but not used in her rise to power. I just reads as a metagame way to shaft the RC.
If the Soleeans are willing to set up hundreds of children to die for a PR stunt, they are complete monsters who prove the Empire=baddy philosophy you seem to want to challenge.

Hmmm, not sure why I feel so strongly but this scenario leaves a bad taste in my mouth. Guess I just don't accept that normal people (and I see the Solee as normal enough, especially considering the time they live in) would load children into tanks and barracks, not only knowing they were going to die, but this being the whole point. Even if an inner circle could come up with this, how does this filter down to the units doing the donkey work without some soldiers rebelling/spreading the word? Their own kids? OK some human societies can and have done some horrific things, but normally to minorities, or people who can be rationalised as others and normally with a more totalitarian control and social conditioning that goes beyond what I see happening on Solee.

Perhaps you could convince me that this is realistic, or I'm being overly sensitive, but I just don't see myself being comfortable roleplaying that scenario with budies. Just like I ignore the likes of rape while gaming; just not a thing I'd be comfortable with.

That said, thanks for the feedback and maybe it will be more use to others. Elements I have in common are Soleean spies in the coalition (IMTU especially on Orriflamme, and the Solee have made overtures to the 'flammers to try and divide and conquer. As you say Solee is not stupid and the RC is too complacent and arrogant.

 

[epicenter00]

The Soleean navy isn't sacrificed - at least not intentionally. It really was that bad at that point in history - they flew out there with every intention of chasing off the RC, but instead their enemies fly circles around them. In that respect, the RC's sense of superiority really was true - the Soleeans really were that bad. Essentially what occurs to the Soleeans is that their navy is defeated handily and the Empress is forced to consider other tactics to get rid of the RC and bargains that the RC doesn't really have the forces for a protracted ground war, and they find bombing cities and typical tactics of "total war" to be distasteful/too expensive. They do withold use of their advanced ground defenses in a classic military maneuver - baiting the RC out until they're at a moment of overextension, then cutting them off.

Now, the thing about the children ... if you want me to get into that. The point is that the Empress actually isn't aware of the situation with the children. Some cynical but patriotic type essentially arranges the "Imperial Pioneer Corps" (that's the Soleean "Boy/Girl Scouts" in my timeline) to basically take a trip out there. These kids were basically on a tour - to be shown around the equipment and the tanks, sit in the anti-aircraft guns, turn the levers and so on. At night they'd sleep in the barracks. It wouldn't really be any longer than a weekend, or a week tops, like a sort of summer camp. Now, to the "modern" and "enlightened" reader this sounds all very 1984. It's not. Gross militarism like this was pretty common until quite recently historically. Even in Western countries it wasn't very uncommon. In the US it was happening in some places right up to the 1970s. It went on even longer in the Soviet Union and still goes on in places like North Korea.

Essentially, my timeline was written with the intention of action on the ground. While gearhead Traveller players love their spaceships, I (and my players) have found spaceships are kinda dull. The range of action of most players in a starship is severely limited in spaceship combat ("I man sensors...yay, I roll a die every so often. Whoopie" - it really is a case of "And I'll form the head!" sure that's great for the guy in the head, but what about the guy in the right foot?). So this scenario involving a ground war/occupation in Solee and political infighting in the RC worked marvelously to have the players have a good excuse not to be in a starship and roleplaying instead.

The thing about the children getting blown up served a very specific point in my campaign. It's what helps bring down the Soleean government. Essentially, the RC players (which mine were, like most groups) initially felt disgust that the Soleeans would do something like that to their children (since obviously it had to be intentional). Of course, after the commando ops finally silence the meson guns and so on and troops are landed on the ground (and they are - shoestring budget or not, they have to be) the players eventually do encounter Soleeans who despise the RC as "child-murdering savages" while the players look at the Soleeans as people who put their children in the line of fire. However, as time goes on, the players realize this kind of "field trip" isn't anything particularly unusual amongst Soleeans but furthermore, even the highest ranking Soleean general staff they capture profess to not have any knowledge of any "plot" involved (this involved some smirking player getting punched by a general after the player claimed the general was lying and the general becomes incensed as one of his grandkids was there, "Perhaps you Oriflammen can grind your own children into burger patties with a shrug when you run low on food, but we Soleeans aren't as disgusting as you subhuman monsters!").

What eventually happened is that one of the player's opposite numbers in the Soleean intelligence directorate hears what the players are talking about and starts thinking. He gets this horrible feeling that will not go away and starts looking at the lists of kids killed and maimed and compares it to the total list and finds that like at the last minute several of the children couldn't attend the function. He eliminates the ones who simply couldn't go because of illness or something and concentrates on the sons and daughters of certain military officers who are mysteriously kept back (since these "patriots" are willing to have others die for them, but not their own family). Eventually the players hunt for this particular cabal of Soleeans is what allows the RC and the Soleean Empress to have a convenient excuse for a ceasefire and negotiation. After all, the huge propaganda crux was manufactured by rogue elements that the Empress didn't have any control of. Once the hunt begins some of the more morally affected guys turn themselves in or commit suicide. Of course, just to make things interesting a few of them decide to run off making the players chase them.

 

[Jame]

Who were the Solee? Where were they, in relation to the RC?

 

[mbrinkhues]

Well one can always use 1248 to see what (semi)canon has on that war.

The Solee fleet had a maintenance/skilled crew problem but not as bad as epicenter00 makes it. The RCN was doing harrasment and spoiling attacks, desperatly avoiding set-piece battles (Think USN in 1812), a wise decision since even functioning at 50 percent efficiency an Imperial era cruiser can still outfight and outfly anything jump-capabel the RCN has unless it appears in swarms.

The Solee more or less faded away and later even leased some of their ships to other powers IIRC

 

[shield]

Solee is over in the Shenk Subsector. It is a TL9 world with a significant imperial / solmani navay assets in orbit. They made recent breakthroughs in anti-viral tech and have got some of the warships working. They have an ally at Kmak and have got bogged down in two wars in neighbouring worlds against local rebels. The Empress is trying to set up a pocket empire.

Basically Solee's imperial vessels are better than the RCN ships, but the crews are operating them by rote, as is maintenance. Ship repairs are difficult as the engineers don't really understand their own ships. Generally the crew has little experience.

Hope this helps

Richard

 

[epicenter00]

The Solee fleet had a maintenance/skilled crew problem but not as bad as epicenter00 makes it.

True - at least as far as 1248 goes.

I disagree pretty much with every single part of 1248's evolution of the Traveller universe and don't use it as it's really the opposite of how I wanted the post-TNE era to turn out, but to each their own - and a lot of players seem to like it, so in the end the 1248 stuff worked well. ... just not for me.

IMTU - I don't see how a navy as described in earlier GDW-era published TNE material could be a material threat to the RC. The Soleeans would have had to disconnect their Third Imperium-era computers and so on, which means a trained, disciplined, and experienced crew would have become more critical than ever. The Soleeans only had one of those three traits. The RC had all three. The RC has experience logistics over long distances, the Soleeans are choking trying to support a single war not too far away.

If the analogy isn't taken too far, I think it would very much be like the Soleeans being the Arabs and the RC being the Israelis during the "classic" Arab-Israeli Wars, except the Arabs would have had a bunch of sophisticated Soviet equipment but at most they'd have manuals on how to operate it - no advisors to train technicians or even the most rudimentary training on how to use it. The RC fleet might be smaller and more slipshod, but the RC at least understands their technology better and is experienced in using it.

 

[mbrinkhues]

Everybody is entitled to his ATU and variants but PLEASE MARK THEM AS SUCH. Your writing sounded a lot like "this is the official version" and not like "this is my version"

 

[Antony]

Looking at the ships in Battlerider which cover the RC-Solee clash even if the Solees have green crews v the RCs Crack ones the Solees still have (according to the scenario) a fully operation Starbust class light cruiser, a Rapier class escort destroyer, a Midu Agashaam class destroyer, a Chrysanthemum class destroyer escort a patrol cruiser and a pair of missile corvettes. Against this the RC sends an LT and LC Maggart a Lancer DD a Fusilier DD and 3 Manticore class battleriders.

Having run a number of combats the MFDs on Solees TL15 vessels largely counters the better crew quality on RCs TL12 stuff. If the spinal weapon for the Starburst hits any RC ship that ship is effectively dead. Then there is the little matter of TL15 EM Masking systems on the larger Solee vessels. I'll have to check the armour and penetration ratings but can the smaller TL12 spinal weapons of the RC weapons penetrate the hulls of the light cruiser and escort destroyer of Solee?

 

[Gallowglacht]

Although canon I'd take the battle-rider scenarios with a pinch of salt. First of all they are designed to give a fairer even fight than might be the case in the rpg. I also doubt there is very much TL15 stuff, as Lucan recalled the Old Expances fleet at the start of the Final War and they answered. I think most Soleean stuff would be some tl 14 Solomani stuff that survived combat with the Imperial reserves, some captured tl 14 Imperial reserve and mostly tl 13/12 Imperial/Solomani reserve and support units. This is less an advantage over RC tl12 fleet with tl13 hiver built components and relic ships in RC service.

The size is still a threat, the Solee have some big ships and they are not complete amatures, they have succesfully launched invasions of 2 other systems. And as said they can one-shot RC big boys. I believe the RC would win, but the Solee are still big enough to prevent an all out war scenario.

IMO the Solee are to small to win, but too large to completely destroy. So what sort of peace would be likely to be hammered out?

 

[Theophilus]

And lets not forget the scenario in backwards mask/dream of chaos

The Solee had two Midu Agashaam, and one Kinunir

 

[shield]

Certainly a fully repaired imperial era warship of the size that Solee has lots of advantages over standard RC vessels. The downsides for Solee and poor crew quality including maintenance and the fact several ship systems may be jury-rigged low tech repairs rather than the original equipment. Remember solee is TL9, imperial ships will be TL14/15.

Same problem with missiles and sand, how may TL15 ones have they got left before they have to revert to TL9 versions.

The Imperial vessels that solee has are also lacking in meson screens or significant armour. Hits by nuclear missiles (if they can get past the dampers) or spinal meson guns / Part Accelerators will cause significant damage. The problem is hitting them with their high agility and ECM (although they are bigger targets).

Cheers
Richard

 

[Antony]

Just a quick question, where was it stated that the screens on Solees ships were non functional? I agree they may not have many TL15 missiles, but those MFDs also allows the Solee ships to commence firing (and hitting) at ranges much greater than the TL12 systems of the RC. This may change when the RC starts using Sandman virus' to enhance the capability of their warships.

 

[mbrinkhues]

Actually the fact that the RC ships become "Igors" is stated in 1248 as one of the reasons it survived/won.

 

[Gallowglacht]

In my campaign, it is far from certain that the RC are going to use "Igors", so I need a better idea how things will go down without the "Igor" win-button. So far its 3 skirmishes to the RC, 1 to Solee, but neither have gone all out so far.