Solomani Rim

[flykiller]

Mr. Smith's 100dT jump pods could very cheaply supply, support, and reposition various prospecting and mining parties. I'm always intrigued by the design's adventure possibilities.

and not just with mining concerns. military resupply, sensor emplacement maintenance, refugee transport, etc, all come to mind. it's sort of like an eighteen wheeler tractor-trailer rig with a reason to go to many places that ordinarily wouldn't be visited.

Did you check out his proposed flag bridge rules?

yes, his bridge rules are good, though I don't see the point of the survey bridge. he proposes bonuses for their presence, but I'd propose penalties if they are absent.

in addition to flag bridges on selected capital ships a fleet should have several dedicated command ships, one for each expected task force plus a few extras.

traveller certainly has wargame potential, but realizing it is problematic. real wargames are based on history and proven experience, but traveller is strictly arbitrary vaporware that frequently does not bear close inspection. in addition, attempting to wargame traveller not only involves badly defined technology, badly defined mass economics, and undefined cultural practices (what if one of your AF worlds is pacifist?), but also unavoidably spins it right back onto its rollplaying roots such as politics and espionage. throw in intelligent players who have opinions but little expertise in economics, politics, or practical technology, and it's a mess. as a wargame, traveller lends itself to talk.

 

[flykiller]

Mr. Smith's 100dT jump pods could very cheaply supply, support, and reposition various prospecting and mining parties. I'm always intrigued by the design's adventure possibilities.

and not just with mining concerns. military resupply, sensor emplacement maintenance, refugee transport, etc, all come to mind. it's sort of like an eighteen wheeler tractor-trailer rig with a reason to go to many places that ordinarily wouldn't be visited.

Did you check out his proposed flag bridge rules?

yes, his bridge rules are good, though I don't see the point of the survey bridge. he proposes bonuses for their presence, but I'd propose penalties if they are absent.

in addition to flag bridges on selected capital ships a fleet should have several dedicated command ships, one for each expected task force plus a few extras.

traveller certainly has wargame potential, but realizing it is problematic. real wargames are based on history and proven experience, but traveller is strictly arbitrary vaporware that frequently does not bear close inspection. in addition, attempting to wargame traveller not only involves badly defined technology, badly defined mass economics, and undefined cultural practices (what if one of your AF worlds is pacifist?), but also unavoidably spins it right back onto its rollplaying roots such as politics and espionage. throw in intelligent players who have opinions but little expertise in economics, politics, or practical technology, and it's a mess. as a wargame, traveller lends itself to talk.

 

[RainOfSteel]

There was a post to the TML a while back (by alan spik, naming Walt Smith as the author):

http://lists.travellerrpg.com/pipermail/tml/2002-June/155965.html

 

[RainOfSteel]

There was a post to the TML a while back (by alan spik, naming Walt Smith as the author):

http://lists.travellerrpg.com/pipermail/tml/2002-June/155965.html

 

[daryen]

Originally posted by flykiller:
(what if one of your AF worlds is pacifist?)

You know, my Traveller-geekdom is showing here.

You used a code "AF" with no explanation, just implied context, yet I think I intuitively know what you meant.

I assume you mean a pop-A, tech-F world, right?

 

[daryen]

Originally posted by flykiller:
(what if one of your AF worlds is pacifist?)

You know, my Traveller-geekdom is showing here.

You used a code "AF" with no explanation, just implied context, yet I think I intuitively know what you meant.

I assume you mean a pop-A, tech-F world, right?

 

[flykiller]

I assume you mean a pop-A, tech-F world, right?

yep.

the usual traveller maps look impressive, but when you sit down and run the numbers, what is where and what can be built, then it becomes clear that most systems are insignificant economically and militarily. classifying the few significant worlds by population and tech level just seems natural at the macro level.

 

[flykiller]

I assume you mean a pop-A, tech-F world, right?

yep.

the usual traveller maps look impressive, but when you sit down and run the numbers, what is where and what can be built, then it becomes clear that most systems are insignificant economically and militarily. classifying the few significant worlds by population and tech level just seems natural at the macro level.

 

[Whipsnade]

flykiller wrote:

"the usual traveller maps look impressive, but when you sit down and run the numbers, what is where and what can be built, then it becomes clear that most systems are insignificant economically and militarily. classifying the few significant worlds by population and tech level just seems natural at the macro level."


Mr. Flykiller,

Parsing those sector maps by tech and pop levels can certainly be eye opening. The Julians supposedly have *one* world capable of TL-F maintenance. Adding to the trouble is the fact that it is so far from the Imperial and K'Kree borders that any TL-F warships would spend most of each year merely travelling between the front and the repair yard.

Don't forget though, most of our info regarding who can build what and what level of population is needed for a given building rate comes from TCS. It seems the information in TCS is no longer quite 'canonical'.

Mr. Miller recently; this year - IIRC, informed Our Olde Hobby that the economic model in TCS; tax rates, ship building rates, etc., *cannot* be applied to the Imperium. This revelation came during a series of threads at JTAS concerning Imperial taxation and IN fleet command which had devolved into a near flamewar.

The TCS taxation and build rates are now strictly reserved for play of the TCS *wargame* and should not be used to model, or make assumptions about, the taxation and build rates in the OTU-3I. This naturally throws one whopper of a monkey wrench in who knows how many personal TUs.

Putting on my 'unwarranted speculation' hat, I'd say any 3I specific taxation and build rates; the core components of any attempt to model the IN, will have to await GT:IN, GT:Nobles, and/or their T20 counterparts. I do know that GT:Nobles is due soon. The author, Mr. Loren Wiseman, has said so at JTAS and the TML.

However the new tax and build rules play out, I do believe we'll still be able to ignore worlds below TL-8 and worlds with < 10 million sophonts when figuring the amount of naval strength any polity can project.
Sincerely,
Larsen

 

[Whipsnade]

flykiller wrote:

"the usual traveller maps look impressive, but when you sit down and run the numbers, what is where and what can be built, then it becomes clear that most systems are insignificant economically and militarily. classifying the few significant worlds by population and tech level just seems natural at the macro level."


Mr. Flykiller,

Parsing those sector maps by tech and pop levels can certainly be eye opening. The Julians supposedly have *one* world capable of TL-F maintenance. Adding to the trouble is the fact that it is so far from the Imperial and K'Kree borders that any TL-F warships would spend most of each year merely travelling between the front and the repair yard.

Don't forget though, most of our info regarding who can build what and what level of population is needed for a given building rate comes from TCS. It seems the information in TCS is no longer quite 'canonical'.

Mr. Miller recently; this year - IIRC, informed Our Olde Hobby that the economic model in TCS; tax rates, ship building rates, etc., *cannot* be applied to the Imperium. This revelation came during a series of threads at JTAS concerning Imperial taxation and IN fleet command which had devolved into a near flamewar.

The TCS taxation and build rates are now strictly reserved for play of the TCS *wargame* and should not be used to model, or make assumptions about, the taxation and build rates in the OTU-3I. This naturally throws one whopper of a monkey wrench in who knows how many personal TUs.

Putting on my 'unwarranted speculation' hat, I'd say any 3I specific taxation and build rates; the core components of any attempt to model the IN, will have to await GT:IN, GT:Nobles, and/or their T20 counterparts. I do know that GT:Nobles is due soon. The author, Mr. Loren Wiseman, has said so at JTAS and the TML.

However the new tax and build rules play out, I do believe we'll still be able to ignore worlds below TL-8 and worlds with < 10 million sophonts when figuring the amount of naval strength any polity can project.
Sincerely,
Larsen

 

[rancke]

Originally posted by Larsen E. Whipsnade:
Parsing those sector maps by tech and pop levels can certainly be eye opening. The Julians supposedly have *one* world capable of TL-F maintenance. Adding to the trouble is the fact that it is so far from the Imperial and K'Kree borders that any TL-F warships would spend most of each year merely travelling between the front and the repair yard.

I've never studied the Julian worlds in detail (or at all), but if by this you mean that they only have one TL-F world with a Class A starport, then I must object.

A Class A starport merely indicates that a civilian can go there and order a ship built. Governments can built ships on any world with the requisite tech level regardless of the starport class. They should certainly be able to get TL F ships maintained on any world with TL 15. (Indeed, I'd be inclined to allow a world to maintain ships several TLs above them and even perform minor repairs at least one TL above their own TL; but here I'm straying outside what I can support from the rules)

Furthermore, civilians can get their ships maintained at any Class A (and IIRC B) starport regardless of the TL of the world. Presumably Class A and B starports import TL 15 components.

Between TL 15 worlds and Class A and B starports, I'm pretty sure the Julians must be able to get their ships maintained more than one place.

(And what about Naval Bases?)


Hans

 

[rancke]

Originally posted by Larsen E. Whipsnade:
Parsing those sector maps by tech and pop levels can certainly be eye opening. The Julians supposedly have *one* world capable of TL-F maintenance. Adding to the trouble is the fact that it is so far from the Imperial and K'Kree borders that any TL-F warships would spend most of each year merely travelling between the front and the repair yard.

I've never studied the Julian worlds in detail (or at all), but if by this you mean that they only have one TL-F world with a Class A starport, then I must object.

A Class A starport merely indicates that a civilian can go there and order a ship built. Governments can built ships on any world with the requisite tech level regardless of the starport class. They should certainly be able to get TL F ships maintained on any world with TL 15. (Indeed, I'd be inclined to allow a world to maintain ships several TLs above them and even perform minor repairs at least one TL above their own TL; but here I'm straying outside what I can support from the rules)

Furthermore, civilians can get their ships maintained at any Class A (and IIRC B) starport regardless of the TL of the world. Presumably Class A and B starports import TL 15 components.

Between TL 15 worlds and Class A and B starports, I'm pretty sure the Julians must be able to get their ships maintained more than one place.

(And what about Naval Bases?)


Hans

 

[far-trader]

Originally posted by rancke:


A Class A starport merely indicates that a civilian can go there and order a ship built. Governments can built ships on any world with the requisite tech level regardless of the starport class. They should certainly be able to get TL F ships maintained on any world with TL 15. (Indeed, I'd be inclined to allow a world to maintain ships several TLs above them and even perform minor repairs at least one TL above their own TL; but here I'm straying outside what I can support from the rules)

(And what about Naval Bases?)

Hans

Hmm, I feel the whole thing strays into the gray areas but it may depend on individual interpretation and the generation of the rules used. CT Book 2 for example is quite clear that Starship yards only exist at Class A starports while Class B starports only support Spaceship yards, for ALL civilian, corporate AND military orders (my emphasis). It does not seem to worry about TL though (but the only TL rated item is the computer anyway and one could allow it to be imported if needed, especially as its on the trade charts). Maintenance is available at any Class A or B starport, which would seem to mean it requires a shipyard, and again no mention of TL.

Like I said though it probably depends on the rules generation used, and of course the individual GM's house rules and detailing. Like LEW said the whole TCS 'rules' is officially no longer valid for the RPG set. It was always meant I think to be an attempt to make a Traveller type Wargame.

As for Naval Bases that's one of the gray areas too, I always pegged them (in CT) as being the same capability as the system's Starport, just reserved for military traffic to support more ships.

 

[far-trader]

Originally posted by rancke:


A Class A starport merely indicates that a civilian can go there and order a ship built. Governments can built ships on any world with the requisite tech level regardless of the starport class. They should certainly be able to get TL F ships maintained on any world with TL 15. (Indeed, I'd be inclined to allow a world to maintain ships several TLs above them and even perform minor repairs at least one TL above their own TL; but here I'm straying outside what I can support from the rules)

(And what about Naval Bases?)

Hans

Hmm, I feel the whole thing strays into the gray areas but it may depend on individual interpretation and the generation of the rules used. CT Book 2 for example is quite clear that Starship yards only exist at Class A starports while Class B starports only support Spaceship yards, for ALL civilian, corporate AND military orders (my emphasis). It does not seem to worry about TL though (but the only TL rated item is the computer anyway and one could allow it to be imported if needed, especially as its on the trade charts). Maintenance is available at any Class A or B starport, which would seem to mean it requires a shipyard, and again no mention of TL.

Like I said though it probably depends on the rules generation used, and of course the individual GM's house rules and detailing. Like LEW said the whole TCS 'rules' is officially no longer valid for the RPG set. It was always meant I think to be an attempt to make a Traveller type Wargame.

As for Naval Bases that's one of the gray areas too, I always pegged them (in CT) as being the same capability as the system's Starport, just reserved for military traffic to support more ships.

 

[flykiller]

http://lists.travellerrpg.com/pipermail/tml/2002-June/155965.html

I dunno, looks a little intensive on the bookkeeping.

 

[flykiller]

http://lists.travellerrpg.com/pipermail/tml/2002-June/155965.html

I dunno, looks a little intensive on the bookkeeping.

 

[Whipsnade]

rancke wrote:

"I've never studied the Julian worlds in detail (or at all), but if by this you mean that they only have one TL-F world with a Class A starport, then I must object."


Mr. Rancke-Madsen,

Please go right ahead. This topic was brought up at the 'ct-starships' a few years ago and thoroughly hashed out. The concensus solution was...

"A Class A starport merely indicates that a civilian can go there and order a ship built. Governments can built ships on any world with the requisite tech level regardless of the starport class."

...exactly what you just wrote!

The 'problem' was solved by a simple matter of interpretation. Neat, nifty, and few loose ends, no?

Getting back to the real thrust of my last post; per Mr. Miller's ruling, TCS can no longer be used as a guide to model Imperial economics or ship construction abilities.


Sincerely,
Larsen

 

[Whipsnade]

rancke wrote:

"I've never studied the Julian worlds in detail (or at all), but if by this you mean that they only have one TL-F world with a Class A starport, then I must object."


Mr. Rancke-Madsen,

Please go right ahead. This topic was brought up at the 'ct-starships' a few years ago and thoroughly hashed out. The concensus solution was...

"A Class A starport merely indicates that a civilian can go there and order a ship built. Governments can built ships on any world with the requisite tech level regardless of the starport class."

...exactly what you just wrote!

The 'problem' was solved by a simple matter of interpretation. Neat, nifty, and few loose ends, no?

Getting back to the real thrust of my last post; per Mr. Miller's ruling, TCS can no longer be used as a guide to model Imperial economics or ship construction abilities.


Sincerely,
Larsen

 

[flykiller]

Don't forget though, most of our info regarding who can build what and what level of population is needed for a given building rate comes from TCS. It seems the information in TCS is no longer quite 'canonical'.

well then, is anything?

it's funny TCS should be deprecated. its tax rate is too low and its shipyard capacity is too high. in spite of this, when TCS rules are applied to the spinward marches (where half the taxpaying imperial population does not live on a planet with any meaningful shipyard capacity) it becomes apparent that the full naval budget allocation is very much greater than can possibly be spent in the available shipyards. I can only wonder what the intended replacement for TCS, if any, could be.

above the level of an RPG, traveller will always have inconsistencies and logic holes big enough to pass a squadron of happy fun balls. fixing them would require a perfect understanding of politics, economics, technology, and human nature, not to mention space aliens and the future, which of course will never happen. I say, just play the game.

 

[flykiller]

Don't forget though, most of our info regarding who can build what and what level of population is needed for a given building rate comes from TCS. It seems the information in TCS is no longer quite 'canonical'.

well then, is anything?

it's funny TCS should be deprecated. its tax rate is too low and its shipyard capacity is too high. in spite of this, when TCS rules are applied to the spinward marches (where half the taxpaying imperial population does not live on a planet with any meaningful shipyard capacity) it becomes apparent that the full naval budget allocation is very much greater than can possibly be spent in the available shipyards. I can only wonder what the intended replacement for TCS, if any, could be.

above the level of an RPG, traveller will always have inconsistencies and logic holes big enough to pass a squadron of happy fun balls. fixing them would require a perfect understanding of politics, economics, technology, and human nature, not to mention space aliens and the future, which of course will never happen. I say, just play the game.